PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[Viktoriusiii]

Ok. But you draw the line at baseball bat parts. Someone else at 500 conrete blocks in one solt of your inventory. I talked with friends about this today and a picture formed in my mind: A guy with an 8x8x8 meter block of concrete on his head? Great food for a cartoon
AND if you make baseball bats craftable from the start you also have to reduce the damage it does to that of a club (after all it is just a club with a polished surface. You know because of realism). Will you do that as well and practically play with no tier3 club at all?

How about, making it a simple schematic and a rarer find?

Its more complex, needs special equipment (sawtable or workbench) and needs a recipe.

No need for "special parts". Also the real T3 Baseballbat is made out of steel, so you already need that first. So T2 Baseball bat is out of wood.

Easy, convenient, not stupid.

Realism is not the be all end all. But if it can easily be avoided to break it, you should try.

Have you ever played Eco? Then you know how much work it is to build stuff there, where it is more realistic.

I still built a whole castle, but that is not what this game is going for, since its a TD game.

There. Please stop with the "omg but inventory is unrealistic so everything else can be stupid as well!" argument <3

 

[spud42]

@faatal needs a unique avatar too! For people like me, who casually browse through this thread in search of dev responses.

mate, the devs names are in a yellow/orange colour.. its easy to spot as you scroll through the pages.

 

[Aldranon]

You all are missing what MM is planning for baseball bats.

Just think: What would a pro baseball player think if he had a bat during the Zombie Apocalypse?

That's right, Bat weights!! You could put several bat weights (Read mods) on a bat, slowly turning into a zombie head exploder! Of course you would need some serious strength to swing a bat with three weights.

 

[n2n1]

@RestInPieces

Yes, in short, i just wanted to say that I'm worried that micromanagement is only seen as a negative phenomenon here.

Some prejudice against him.

 

[Tin]

Every high end weapon or tool that you can craft has parts.Simple and consistent. Baseball bats are no special snowflakes. They are weapons.

Very much unlike the previous weapon parts system, low level weapons or their parts are not frustratingly useless and scrapping them to bring the parts home and maybe craft something better with them saves inventory space.

The previous weapon parts were also in no way comparable to mods. They offered zero choice and gameplay, only micromanagement.

OH Geezus..

You know I was not even mad or trashing anything, but since you want to do a nanana deal for some reason..

It is comparable to the old parts system.

You are adding things [Parts] to make it better. <- linear upgrades

You are adding things [Mods] to make it better. <- More robust choices

Parts is parts, no matter what you want to call them.

You all just slightly changed it up to make it less of a micromanage game -> which is good <-

but changing the system slightly, to be less of a micromanage, and more robust in choices doesn't make it any less comparable.

 

[Moldy Bread]

The more I hear about this alpha the more concerned I become.

TFPs seem to be indecisive about everything. A few alphas ago we got gun parts, TFPs were singing from the roofs about how cool this system was. This worked well and gave a sense of progression as you and your weapons got stronger. I was a great feeling to finally get a purple gun by combining two parts together, you always had a reason to go out and get new parts.

Then, TFPs hate it and it gets replaced by a more simple system where guns are everywhere. Then we now go back to gun parts but a more inferior version. We are told "but mods!" why not both?

Dangerous hub cities with spooky scary atmosphere were fine, (I honestly don't know why large random generation cities can't generate their own enhanced wasteland biome) these cities has (or should have) the best and highest tier loot. It gave you something to work towards and added a real fear factor, something that a zombie game really benefits from. These were replaced with loot-em-up cities that even the lowest level can waltz into and instantly get everything they need.

Wandering zombies were replaced completely by sleepers who if you just sneak pose no real threat. We are told we cannot have both because of performance issues but this game has been horribly un-optimized for a while now.

Learn by doing, which worked fine was scrapped in favor of an inferior system as well.

So much time was spent on these systems only for TFP to suddenly dislike them and replace them when no-one really had an issue with them. It screams of wasted time and resources.

Whenever concerns are raised TFPs just dismiss it or you are heckled by the mega fans. For example, most people are saying that having it so you eventfully just get cop zombies on the seven day horde is a terrible idea, but this is ignored.

The argument of "we are trying to be realistic" falls flat on its face because.... This game in general is not nor never will be realistic. Rotting corpses coming back to life is not realistic, carrying a 4x4 truck in your backpack is not realistic, upgrading a door into a vault door using a stone axe is not realistic and etc. Why can't fun and realism be balanced?

This game is continually being dumbed down.

Also... Gun parts isn't exactly that horrific in terms of micro-managing. Find new part, either replace old part or use it to repair better part and/or upgrade old part.

 

[RestInPieces]

And here we see the fundamental flaw. Certain weapons should be more powerful! [...]

I think you and CC explained it pretty well already.

In general I think that if we take what Roland said literally, that "every weapon you don't spec into is garbage", besides that sounding very artificial and game-y, this would essentially make the game's lootlist weapon variety mostly meaningless, since the only thing that would be useful to you would depend on your 1-2 choices. In other words looting anything other than the weapon you have specialized into, would be of no interest. Why not make every weapon find gratifying instead, but make the player choose to use and specialize into a specific one because of different utility needs?

There already is some differentiation of utility in weapons that is mostly unlocked with perks - like the club vs sledge perks, stamina usage, hit arc (in A18) etc. And for guns, different ammo prices, different recoil, reload times, noise etc. They could expand on that and enlarge these differences and make each weapon more unique with inherent utility that is boosted by specialization.

And in the end, forcing the player to "marry" a weapon or two for his whole playthrough, through specialization that dramatically increases damage and makes it useful vs other mostly useless choices, might not be the best idea.

 

[beerfly]

By being in alpha stage we see lots of systems and stuff in and out.

It is normal to remove something not so effective at some point and bring it back in much better state when it is properly balanced.

 

[Moldy Bread]

I think you and CC explained it pretty well already.
In general I think that if we take what Roland said literally, that "every weapon you don't spec into is garbage", besides that sounding very artificial and game-y, this would essentially make the game's lootlist weapon variety mostly meaningless, since the only thing that would be useful to you would depend on your 1-2 choices. In other words looting anything other than the weapon you have specialized into, would be of no interest. Why not make every weapon find gratifying instead, but make the player choose to use and specialize into a specific one because of different utility needs?

They already is some differentiation of utility in weapons that is mostly unlocked with perks - like the club vs sledge perks, stamina usage, hit arc (in A18) etc. And for guns, different ammo prices, different recoil, reload times, noise etc. They could expand on that and enlarge these differences and make each weapon more unique with inherent utility that is boosted by specialization.

And in the end, forcing the player to "marry" a weapon or two for his whole playthrough, through specialization that dramatically increases damage and makes it useful vs other mostly useless choices, might not be the best idea.

I agree, but this will be ignored.

 

[Noctoras]

But we forgot that, this micromanagement - was interesting, and this is the main thing. It doesn't matter that it's - micromanagement.

Why do you think micromanagement has to be boring just because it's "micromanagement"?

No need to think in patterns

True. That is also why a lot of people thhink there is too many guns out there.

Getting THE unique gun, finally finding a gun at all, these moments feel so rewarding, no matter if they are by definition "micro" or "macro".

Make all guns have the same stat or make guns available in every POI and they will quickly loose lots of their fascination. I also am a proponent of scarcity and diversity when it comes to that. We arguably have a lot of non gun weapons to get by for quite a while, so there is no need to find a gun in the first house I come across. Finding a gun and some ammo for it on day 2 or 3 feels a lot more rewarding then.

Even better, if I can find a supergun outclassing number one some days later. That's why I also think it would be good to have loot not strictly bound to gamestage (if I visit a hardware store NOT being a plumber myself doesn't make me only stumble upon bad wrenches) ... having a higher probability of bad loot being in a low gamestage is okay, only having crappy loot at a low gamestage again feels like everything is standardised.

Give some randomness, give some achievment, give some luck a chance. It is so rewarding to players, if they CAN find a good quality AK47 on day 1. It should be a very small chance, but having the option gives looting a thrill. Definitely more of a thrill than "okay, let's loot the level 1 crap now"...

At the end of the day very much looking forward to A18, though, many changes are pointing in the right direction

 

[Noctoras]

TFPs seem to be indecisive about everything. A few alphas ago we got gun parts, TFPs were singing from the roofs about how cool this system was. This worked well and gave a sense of progression as you and your weapons got stronger. I was a great feeling to finally get a purple gun by combining two parts together, you always had a reason to go out and get new parts.
Then, TFPs hate it and it gets replaced by a more simple system where guns are everywhere. Then we now go back to gun parts but a more inferior version. We are told "but mods!" why not both?

True, but they reversed the decision and I think it is widely accepted that this endless flow of identical weapons was a major flaw in A17. A18 will have individual stats again, so I am positive on that one. Now if the over abundance (especially of firearms) will stop as well, that would give weapons the rewarding feeling again.

Generally it doesn't take many guts to make a good decision, but it really takes balls to admit to making a bad decision and reverse it - that actually made me take my virtual hat off more than once. TFP DO listen, even if they might not (and cannot) address each and every player wish.

Dangerous hub cities with spooky scary atmosphere were fine, (I honestly don't know why large random generation cities can't generate their own enhanced wasteland biome) these cities has (or should have) the best and highest tier loot. It gave you something to work towards and added a real fear factor, something that a zombie game really benefits from. These were replaced with loot-em-up cities that even the lowest level can waltz into and instantly get everything they need.

Wandering zombies were replaced completely by sleepers who if you just sneak pose no real threat. We are told we cannot have both because of performance issues but this game has been horribly un-optimized for a while now.

Learn by doing, which worked fine was scrapped in favor of an inferior system as well.

In contrast to your previously mentioned point about weapons, these are all a matter of personal preference, not necessarily good or bad game design. Actually the "just get all you need with zero risk" was mitigated by digging zeds more than hub cities and wandering hordes ever could. Of course you will never satisfy everyone and of course things can be improved. But marking these points as bad game design is unfair in my book.

Yes, "dumbing down" is not necessarily a good idea, but this has been mentioned by a lot of people on here. Overcomplicating things for ths sake of it or for 20,000 hour players isn't the idea from heaven either, though. Not trying to offend, just trying to present another pov

Regards

 

[beerfly]

That is also why a lot of people thhink there is too many guns out there.

Variety of situations needs variety of solutions.

Experience it first, then critique.

I love how many people have so many ways of gameplay, that at some point we will have to accept that some stuff that we love in the game is gone, but it is development. Means it goes further and better.

Nothing to worry about is my point.

P.S. the amount of guns is gonna be different as told recently, balance is better than now, don`t know why you guys compare A17 and A18..who told it recently ?

 

[Viktoriusiii]

True. That is also why a lot of people thhink there is too many guns out there.
Getting THE unique gun, finally finding a gun at all, these moments feel so rewarding, no matter if they are by definition "micro" or "macro".

Yeah, best way I can describe it is that it has become an mmo style... where you don't find THAT weapon, but you find hundrets and need to check each and every one for stats... and they tell me that gunparts were micromanaging

Like... I do like the idea of randomized stats. It gives excitement to the next gunfind.

But ONLY if that gunfind is far away and not right next to me.

To me, this is TFPs not knowing what their game is supposed to be..:

On the one hand, they say that they want people to "stay in the stone age" for longer. On the other they say that every playstyle needs to be catered to and given their weapon of choice, even if that means you have to literally make every gun the same rarity.

I remember <=A16 how excited I got about my first lvl 120 sniper rifle! I already had a 500 pistol, but it felt like I was finally progressing to the endgame.

In A17 I found an AK on day 1. Fully build lvl 2. Not in a quest or anything. Just dropped by a zombie.

Weapon parts were the ideal mechanic for what they are trying to do now. To spread out the chance, to give every single lootcontainer value and to be able to keep players from getting OP guns early.

Because if the chance for a full AK is 1% and you get that 1% the game gets boring quickly.

If it is 4 parts with 1% for every part, this makes it stretch out so much more and gives a feeling of satisfaction no mod has yet given me.

I was always like "oh neat +2 damage" that wont change if I kill a Z or not... but now I have slightly higher accuracy. Didnt know I want tit... but its neat."

With weapon parts I was like "OH MY GOD FINALLY!!! THE FOURTH PART!!! HERE TRADER! TAKE MY 20000 DUKES!! I WANT THIS SO BADLY!!! FINALLY!!"

see the difference? One is more or less meaningless, while the other balances gameplay, introduces more reasons to go out looting and is rewarding once you finally find it.

I know they aren't coming back.

I only write this because I do not want guns to be everywhere. Yes its america... but those guns lie in the dirt... probably have been used 100 times (apocalypse you know) or even broken apart by zombies.


YOU WANT A SOLUTION?

make it how you want it. Guns everywhere.

But make guns that you find totally broken. Some unrepairably(or take 2x the ressources) so, some repairable via repairkit.

Meanwhile make Repairkits more expensive. Use steel instead of iron and use 5 oil instead of one. Oil can be easily gotten lategame (in the desert shale + empty can. But early game it is extremely rare and repairing a weapon should be really hard. (also adjust prices for repairkits since they are 10x more valuable now and decrease chances of finding one by a factor of 10 or more)

also don't make them repair completely anymore. That was a bad change to begin with. Maybe keep the cost how it is now but only repair 50-100 quality/hp)

Scrapping a broken gun should only give 1/2 the materials and it already decreases sale value (then you can up prices for guns again because selling an AK for 40 dukes is laughable)

There. Fixed it for ya. You can keep the "cater to every playstyle" idea without showering the player with guns and keeping finding useful guns more rewarding.

 

[RestInPieces]

Variety of situations needs variety of solutions. Experience it first, then critique.

I love how many people have so many ways of gameplay, that at some point we will have to accept that some stuff that we love in the game is gone, but it is development. Means it goes further and better.

If that was always the case every game would be a masterpiece. And you don't always need to experience something to critique if the concept is simple enough.

But critique aside, A18 is one of the most anticipated versions for me, since the balance pass and some of the changes it will bring is something the game was in dire need of. Can't wait to play with zombies which will actually be a threat and you will not be able to just walk away from for instance. Now, if they decide to also throw a death penalty option in the menu I would be ecstatic.

 

[beerfly]

If that was always the case every game would be a masterpiece. And you don't always need to experience something to critique if the concept is simple enough.
But critique aside, A18 is one of the most anticipated versions for me, since the balance pass and some of the changes it will bring is something the game was in dire need of. Can't wait to play with zombies which will actually be a threat and you will not be able to just walk away from for instance. Now, if they decide to also throw a death penalty option in the menu I would be ecstatic.

Many of us really miss the genuine feeling of being scared and helpless (and eventually wacked) in our first hours ingame. Devs are back to that in a proper way so far, ya critiques are a need, we provide good feedback here, no doubt.

Though a masterpiece is not made by eveyone`s opinion, but by it`s creator`s one.

 

[Roland]

Wow. Sorry I said anything. My point was that despite there being many weapons the feeling of scarcity is still preserved in a way that gives you a good reason to get out there and scavenge and explore.

As I said, “garbage” was probably too extreme a term that I wouldn’t have used if I knew people would fixate in it. The brown and orange tier weapons are less powerful than the yellow, green, blue, and purple tier weapons. This what people seemed to want— damage tied to quality again instead of all weapons being the same and increased by mods?

So you find lots of weapons in the early game but they are most commonly brown tier which will not be as it was in A17. It will be how it was in A16– the least powerful version— good for parts, ammo already loaded into it, or emergencies.

Finding a purple tier weapon of any type whether you have perks in it or not will be a great find and that weapon would serve you well. They are very rare.

As for baseball bat parts— it is not a placeholder system. IF it’s a placeholder at all it would just be the name and icon that would be changed. That’s not the same thing as changing a system at all.

Not everyone is going to like all changes. I wasn’t bothered at all by baseball bat parts but being able to nerdpole does bother me. I made my bid for that change and lost and have modded it in. I doubt I’ll spend any time modding away baseball bat parts because it doesn’t bother me. Sounds like some of you will.

 

[RestInPieces]

Wow. Sorry I said anything.

Have you heard anything about a possible death penalty option in A18 or should I go grab my pitchfork?

 

[RipClaw]

As for baseball bat parts— it is not a placeholder system. IF it’s a placeholder at all it would just be the name and icon that would be changed. That’s not the same thing as changing a system at all.

The question for me is if you only find baseball bat parts or if you find complete baseball bats that you can scrap to get parts in order to craft a better baseball bat ?

 

[Viktoriusiii]

Wow. Sorry I said anything. My point was that despite there being many weapons the feeling of scarcity is still preserved in a way that gives you a good reason to get out there and scavenge and explore.

Dont! You are only the messanger We are thankful for every detail you give us, so that we might influence them enough to overthink bad design... (I mean looking at the history of this EA game thats not very likely... but possible )

So you find lots of weapons in the early game but they are most commonly brown tier which will not be as it was in A17. It will be how it was in A16– the least powerful version— good for parts, ammo already loaded into it, or emergencies.

Yeah thats the problem. Guns are endgame content. Pistols might be midgame content... maybe a shotgun if you are lucky.

But you shouldnt find "good" (AK, M60, Sniper...) weapons early. It robs the game of the feeling of progression that TFPs so desperatly strive for, which is why they made the early game such a crawl.

Weapons can wait! They aren't a fundamental part of this game. Mining is.

So if you slow down one thing to the point where it becomes unfun, while removing the sense of progression in exploration by showering people with endgame guns, your focus is off.

And yes I know that "purple" is the new AK, Sniper and so on. But it still devalues the bigger calibers. It is a small thing, but there are so many small things that ruin the immersion that one more small thing is just too much you know?

I can ignore the baseballbat needing parts, I can ignore beeing showered with weapons, I can ignore beeing gated by levels (well no I cant but thats besides the point ) I can ignore killing 100 zombies to finally learn how to mine more efficiently, I can ignore zombies having GPS' built into their brains, I can ignore Wood beeing so absolutely useless in building that it became a meme, I can ignore...

But all of those together completely ruin the immersion... step by step... that is why we are "fighting" those "small" changes. because they got numerous over time.

 

[beerfly]

Dont! You are only the messanger.

His full name is Rolandstein. You should never call him just a messenger. Never. Go in the corner.