PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[Pr00ch]

adding in misfires would not make the game any harder.

Challenge is one thing, artificial difficulty is another. Misfires would just put the players at the mercy of a RNG, which is a slippery slope that can easily land you in artificial difficulty territory.

 

[Pr00ch]

Most players quit in 2 hours and don't get that far, or their friend crafted them a minibike, spawned it in with cheats, etc.
We're probably just going to simplify the repair kit some. We want to support nomad player classes where you just quest and don't even have a base. That guy shouldn't have to spend 12 hours reading wikis on how to make a repair kit.

Bandages should just stop bleeding and not heal at all or be nerfed a lot, forcing medicated bandages and food use for actual healing.

Perhaps consider including different tiers of repair kits? One that repairs an item up to 25%, one to 50%, and so on. Or change the repair system entirely, one way that comes to mind is the way Fallout New Vegas does it, where an item can be fixed with another item of the same kind, and (after a perk) of a similar kind. E.g. at first you can repair one handgun with another handgun, and after the perk you could repair a handgun with revolver too (or vice versa). Repair kits could easily exist along side this as more cost effective and flexible, but harder to attain method.

Also sorry for the double post, I thought the post would auto-merge.

 

[spacepiggio]

Perhaps consider including different tiers of repair kits? One that repairs an item up to 25%, one to 50%, and so on. Or change the repair system entirely, one way that comes to mind is the way Fallout New Vegas does it, where an item can be fixed with another item of the same kind, and (after a perk) of a similar kind. E.g. at first you can repair one handgun with another handgun, and after the perk you could repair a handgun with revolver too (or vice versa). Repair kits could easily exist along side this as more cost effective and flexible, but harder to attain method.
Also sorry for the double post, I thought the post would auto-merge.

I like the old decay system, a tool should not be able to be repaired back to 100%, maybe we can have Tool Handles Break, Axe Heads, Picks or Knives need to be Sharpened.

Maybe this will get us away from Repair Kits if we replace Handles & Sharpen Tools when they get Worn Out.

Change the Weapons Repair Kits to Cleaning Kits to prevent the Guns from Jamming, after so many rounds the weapons need cleaning for them to function.

Maybe we can do these repairs for Tools at the Work Bench & create a new Work Station to work on Weapons eliminating Repair Kits all together.

 

[beHypE]

As usual i'm on Jax's boat. The trend seems to be simplification of seemingly uninteresting, unfun mechanics based on a biased sense of "global opinion". No one liked the plains, let's remove them, repairing stuff is boring, let's simplify it, caves were a mess, let's disable them, etc. It was all good several alphas ago when this came with the justification "it was a placeholder anyways and we need to strip some stuff to add that REAL lategame content", but let's face it, where is that content ? What has actually been added that has significantly improved late game ?

We removed the 1-600 quality system with effectiveness bonuses in order to implement a "better system". What's better with the 1-6 level system in the end ? Being able to craft level 3 tools as soon as you end the starter quest if you just dump all your points in Intelligence ? What's the big gain here I fail to see ? Couldn't mod slots just be an addition to the old system instead of envisionning yet another revolutionnary change, that inevitably ended up being a half-baked system ?

We removed books for a supposedly amazing skill tree that actually totally shifted the game's purpose from exploring & looting towards finding the best way to level up in order to unlock everything via your inventory. Is that really better in a open world exploration game ?

We removed gunparts because "finding gun parts and assembling guns together was a chore", so now you find dozens of complete guns you have no uses for, with mod slots way before you actually find any mods.

We have a brand new RWG where snow doesn't meet desert but where every map looks the same.

The list goes on and on.

I think the common denominator here is that working, pleasant, fun mechanics are constantly being changed and stripped because the vision of another system seems wayyy better, but the implementation is always drastically underwhelming. How many times did we get hyped up about that new RWG until we realised it's broken ? How many times did the skill tree get praised before we realised it changed the whole purpose of the game ?

And most importantly, besides all the constant changes that didn't need to happen, where is the actual content that gets postponed over and over again ? Bandits, legendary loot ?

This will seem harsh but I'm losing faith because I feel the expectations of TFP and their vision of "what's coming" always ends up being way overrated compared to how it is implemented in the end.

 

[spud42]

I wouldnt even assume the player base is locked in. Yes we have purchased copies and we will own it forever. Thant "lock" is there but i think it is foolish for devs to assume the player base is going to accept all the changes that come their way. If anything the bleed has been a slow and steady one. Theres been numerous gates, some silly and some warranted. All the way back to "magic blocks" being added (remember THAT one) to HP bars on trees and rocks. All were argued over.
This seems to be a bit different though. You do have a core group of people who will stick around through any change, but then there are the ones who start to feel the sum of all these changes. For every repair kit, every schematic and every texture that gets removed it adds up. Until its hard NOT to notice just how different it is. For some thats welcome, simplification for casuals. For others, the ones who bought into a game design that was complex and slower we just stop caring. By no means did any of us sign a contract to keep supporting just by buying. Look at the latest trend of games to simplify and you will see that over time it actually LOSES the audience it had, and does not attract the new ones it hopes to.

Maybe Im just growing older. Maybe I have outgrown this game. Id like to think not because MOST of my mod players are more mature age wise, 35 plus etc. That tells me theres an audience for complexity. Im still wondering what all this "end game" talk is. It was stated to us that the focus on 20 hour plus players was to introduce the player to a world that awaits. Yet all I hear is this and that removed, those simplified, we dont need this. Its all starting to feel like discussing the wonderful Wizard of Oz. Does this world even exist?

my turn to risk banning..lol if they add back complexity how are they going to shoehorn this thing into a console?

 

[JaxTeller718]

my turn to risk banning..lol if they add back complexity how are they going to shoehorn this thing into a console?

I will take that risk with you: They can not even use THAT as an excuse anymore since we all know the console version is in permanent limbo.

- - - Updated - - -

As usual i'm on Jax's boat. The trend seems to be simplification of seemingly uninteresting, unfun mechanics based on a biased sense of "global opinion". No one liked the plains, let's remove them, repairing stuff is boring, let's simplify it, caves were a mess, let's disable them, etc. It was all good several alphas ago when this came with the justification "it was a placeholder anyways and we need to strip some stuff to add that REAL lategame content", but let's face it, where is that content ? What has actually been added that has significantly improved late game ?
We removed the 1-600 quality system with effectiveness bonuses in order to implement a "better system". What's better with the 1-6 level system in the end ? Being able to craft level 3 tools as soon as you end the starter quest if you just dump all your points in Intelligence ? What's the big gain here I fail to see ? Couldn't mod slots just be an addition to the old system instead of envisionning yet another revolutionnary change, that inevitably ended up being a half-baked system ?

We removed books for a supposedly amazing skill tree that actually totally shifted the game's purpose from exploring & looting towards finding the best way to level up in order to unlock everything via your inventory. Is that really better in a open world exploration game ?

We removed gunparts because "finding gun parts and assembling guns together was a chore", so now you find dozens of complete guns you have no uses for, with mod slots way before you actually find any mods.

We have a brand new RWG where snow doesn't meet desert but where every map looks the same.

The list goes on and on.

I think the common denominator here is that working, pleasant, fun mechanics are constantly being changed and stripped because the vision of another system seems wayyy better, but the implementation is always drastically underwhelming. How many times did we get hyped up about that new RWG until we realised it's broken ? How many times did the skill tree get praised before we realised it changed the whole purpose of the game ?

And most importantly, besides all the constant changes that didn't need to happen, where is the actual content that gets postponed over and over again ? Bandits, legendary loot ?

This will seem harsh but I'm losing faith because I feel the expectations of TFP and their vision of "what's coming" always ends up being way overrated compared to how it is implemented in the end.

It doesnt get any better than this post. All of it detailed and laid out. VERY true when they tell you to never meet your heroes

 

[The Gaffer]

Something else I realized that bugged me about a17...
I LOVE the ai is WORLDS better than a16 (we stopped playing that because of the zombies running in circles) BUT horde nights are just way too easy now because of the kill platform option.

You can't really build a dependable base because they'll just plough through it, and if you do take advantage of the ai, its laughably easy.

Faatal: Can a "bloodmoon frenzy" be added, so either on nights or horde nights, the ai ignores block density a percentage of the time, and just tries a direct line to the player?

Elevated tunnel traps wouldn't be viable anymore, because a percentage of the zombies would just be destroying the platform base or its defenses.

I know you have a LOT on your plate and you've done an amazing job on the ai, but maybe something simple like this would shake up bloodmoon/night hordes to make defendable bases practical again?

Its human nature to exploit game mechanics, and you can't completely stop people cheesing the system (Minecraft's zombie spawner xp farming comes to mind.) But tossing some randomness/stupidity into the horde night ai might be just enough to make the platform run defense less that 100% safe.

We used to be concerned about horde nights and now they are just safe xp shooting galleries, and the real challenge gameplay now is quest dungeon crawling.

I know you nerfed block damage to make bases more viable and attractive, but it is just too easy to cheese the bloodmoon ai as it is right now.

I agree. Horde nights have become boring and easy now and has just become shooting practice for easy XP.

 

[meganoth]

Sadly the forum is again in a "doom is upon us"-mode. Repair-kits are not getting removed, independent of the reason. Let it rest.

Does make me wonder why it has taken till this time, to have the game start looking more like what the developers envisioned though.

MM dropped a hint that someone with a (probably) different vision was in charge of game design in the early alphas.

 

[DaVegaNL]

Releasing a stable A17.3 and A18 within the next two months..? Gotta see it to believe it, but I don't think that will happen.

 

[Pr00ch]

I like the old decay system, a tool should not be able to be repaired back to 100%, maybe we can have Tool Handles Break, Axe Heads, Picks or Knives need to be Sharpened. Maybe this will get us away from Repair Kits if we replace Handles & Sharpen Tools when they get Worn Out.

Change the Weapons Repair Kits to Cleaning Kits to prevent the Guns from Jamming, after so many rounds the weapons need cleaning for them to function.

Maybe we can do these repairs for Tools at the Work Bench & create a new Work Station to work on Weapons eliminating Repair Kits all together.

I didn't like it because it never really was worth it to repair stuff over just making a new one, especially with the mental barrier of it detoriating. It might make more sense logically, but I don't think it translates into good game design.

This also kind of ties to the "Simplification" debate. I think people are jumping the gun. There needs to be stricken a balance between complexity and accessibility. Streamlining some systems isn't a bad thing, it's not the same as dumbing something down. Some old ideas just make the game bloat in one way or another (such as the 0-600 levels being an unnecessary number crunch that just made it harder to plan anything out and surely to balance other aspects of the game related to item tiers).

More complexity just for the sake of it doesn't make the game better.

 

[Guppycur]

A17 was total crap (except for mod support), so I've no problem waiting as long as it takes if they're truly rewriting systems.

I'd like to see mm play the game more, since he's taken over game design. It'd be nice if he played to day 14 or 21 on every alpha starting from 10, perhaps with others, so he can get a legit feel for what worked and what didn't.

I'd REALLY like it if he had a small accident in the shower where he bumped his head and forgot everything he knew about Skyrim and Fallout. . Nothing serious, just enough so that we can have an original game that didn't try to emulate other /types/ of games who's gameplay and design just doesn't work in 7 days.

 

[madmole]

10%? You have played long games, right? Mining is essential. Far more essential than it should be.

I am saying that 10% of the time spent playing the game is mining, at most, on average. You can get by without large amounts of mining. I wouldn't call mining trees or surface rocks mining, I'm talking about full on making caves and digging deep being something you don't have to do. You can buy GP and bullets from traders, so its not an essential part any more.

 

[beHypE]

I didn't like it because it never really was worth it to repair stuff over just making a new one, especially with the mental barrier of it detoriating. It might make more sense logically, but I don't think it translates into good game design.
This also kind of ties to the "Simplification" debate. I think people are jumping the gun. There needs to be stricken a balance between complexity and accessibility. Streamlining some systems isn't a bad thing, it's not the same as dumbing something down. Some old ideas just make the game bloat in one way or another (such as the 0-600 levels being an unnecessary number crunch that just made it harder to plan anything out and surely to balance other aspects of the game related to item tiers).

More complexity just for the sake of it doesn't make the game better.

While I don't really mind the repair kit changes in a nutshell, I think the bigger picture you have to see here is that this dumbing down, this simplification is becoming a trend that is affecting the soul, the uniqueness of 7DTD one bit at a time, but at a steady rate over the last iterations. I totally do not agree with the fact that the 1-600 levels was an "unnecessary number crunch" compared to a 1-6 system. Here's why :

- the low granularity of the new system doesn't provide enough room for steady and constant progress. As I stated, as soon as I finish the starting quest, I can dump 4 points in Intelligence and all of a sudden I craft every tool/weapon in Q3. Does this make sense ? Does this feel rewarding ? How am I gonna find better tools in the loot if it's that easy to just craft better gear ?

- the low granularity doesn't allow you to have repair degradation (you lost quality with each repair) cost for obvious reasons. This was removed because apparently "it was a chore", all I see is that a justification was to be found for a system that is no longer supported by the new system

- the low granularity doesn't allow you to combine objects to gain a bit of quality. Again, nothing major anyways right ?

- progression is plateau'd very often. You reach Q3 ? Alright, you just know you'll be stuck here for a while because you need to spend the next 10 points in something else. There's a very slim chance you'll find a better tool by looting anyway at this gamestage, so basically you know this won't evolve anytime soon. Before, you'd find tools with +10 or +20 quality compared to what you had, it was a small change but hell, it was something !

What exactly did the new system provide that couldn't be done before ? Mod slots couldn't have been added with a 1-600 system, each slot being unlocked every 100 quality ?

I know quality is being worked on for A18, that each "category" of item will have a different crafting quality depending on its respective perk level etc. Wait and see I guess, but past iterations have shown me that I better not get my hopes up too high regarding how well-thought & well-implemented these ideas might end up being once released.

Where you see "simplifications of the process" I see "overcomplexity in the thinking". Most these things weren't troublesome to begin with, overthinking working stuff to try to make them better instead of focusing your attention on yet-to-be-implemented stuff feels reverse to me. What ain't broken doesn't need fixing, it's what ain't there yet that needs thinking.

 

[madmole]

But what about immersion in the game? Books, steroids as well as dropping a backpack are situational solutions to a problem.
The ability to drop a backpack will not make a player’s life very easier if you worry about it. Maybe you just do not want to do it, because you think that no one will use it?

If this is the case, then you need to think about removing from the game, Blanderbass) nobody really uses this type of weapon)

Its not a bad idea, its just another thing that will delay us from shipping when many players just want alpha to be over with.

 

[Ouch Quit It]

Its not how it works since they gave so much for this game to exist. We are obviously at the era of balancing and since we got years of having fun and giving advices, we got spoiled, did we ? Let them finish what they started.

Gave so much...they got paid for the job they did. Its a career they chose...a product they produced.

Everyone nowadays forgets that part. You chose the job..you work..you get paid.

A17 was supposed to have all the systems replaced and ready to build off of from decisions they made. It flopped. Now all the systems are being yanked or replaced again.

Im just hoping its not another year and a half.

PC was supposed to get more than Console because our systems could handle it.

We were supposed to get quicker releases and patches..every couple of weeks i believe we were told.

Everything went out the window on the best version to date.

Now its just rip this out...replace this... to simplify and get to gold.

I would bet that bandits will be a post gold update.

But at least we have a 4x4 and a gyro..because now i can get across the map in 2 minutes.

Its over johnny!!

 

[JaxTeller718]

I am saying that 10% of the time spent playing the game is mining, at most, on average. You can get by without large amounts of mining. I wouldn't call mining trees or surface rocks mining, I'm talking about full on making caves and digging deep being something you don't have to do. You can buy GP and bullets from traders, so its not an essential part any more.

You are right. And the fact this is ok with you shows exactly how out of touch you have become with what sold your game in the first place.

There are a LOT if people who enjoyed mining. It was actually one of the main reason some of them enjoyed it so much. The fact it can be casually ignored now is for a lack of a better term sad. Traders replacing ACTUAL gameplay?

If its true the team changed between 16 and 17 Im going to have to go with A16 being 7 Days to Die 1 and A17 and Beyond being the game you guys wanted to make after 7 days. 1 Alpha too many I guess. Sorry brother, but I loved the ever loving hell put of your game, it inspired me to learn more about the industry and the work that goes into it, but I think Im officially off the hype train.

- - - Updated - - -

Its not a bad idea, its just another thing that will delay us from shipping when many players just want alpha to be over with.

Who are these players demanding Alpha be over with? Facebook? Better get to work on the console then if you are listening to them now.

I think everyone here would rather 5 more Alphas then watch the game they loved be ripped apart and become a former shell of itself. Maybe its not the players who just want to go gold already?

 

[madmole]

Uh no. Each and every recipe part is found in abundance on day 1 with no practical use on day 1. It's day 21 when you discover you need those things and by that time you've already wasted them...
And that's awesome.

You're looking at removing awesome.

And deciding that we might keep repair kits because it's too hard to remove them is just saying "we have given up trying, let's wrap this up".

And I simply refuse to believe your team thinks that.

It's my fault for saying they were going bye bye without having meetings with all the right people. I should have said we're going to look at them. I get the need to get out and find things you need, that is a core pillar of a game like this and we're getting that back in A18 and will continue in that direction for many builds.

 

[madmole]

Another proposal that the developers will consider, but will not accept)))
We now have only 6 types of quality weapons and tools. Quality does not fall during the repair. So the weapon of each quality level can have its own texture.

1 - rusty, crooked, rewound with tape and ropes

2 - rusty, crooked, rewound with adhesive tape

3 - rusty, but with remnants of paint ...

...

6 - clean, brilliant, high-quality weapons, on which the factory grease still remained.

The same applies to tools, and possibly armor. Now all items, regardless of quality, look exactly the same.

It's not very good (

You have to understand the sheer amount of work to do that on a wide scale this late in the game would set us back a lot, all for a slight bit of immersion. You could maybe do a cheesy rust shader that increases opacity of the rust as the quality levels are lower, but it would compromise the visuals. Something like this has to be planned from the ground up. You should be talking about the half dozen new weapons your getting, not the rusty variants you aren't.

 

[Guppycur]

I am saying that 10% of the time spent playing the game is mining, at most, on average. You can get by without large amounts of mining. I wouldn't call mining trees or surface rocks mining, I'm talking about full on making caves and digging deep being something you don't have to do. You can buy GP and bullets from traders, so its not an essential part any more.

If you spend all of your time looting just to get items for traders, then you're not spending any time building and preparing for the larger horde nights. And yeh, whether you're mining above or below surface, if you're whacking something to get materials, you're mining. =)

 

[madmole]

Another proposal that the developers will consider, but will not accept)))

When you frame it like that, you are right. Stop being a pessimist. Its like the job application that opens with "I have zero experience and you probably won't consider me for this job but..."
Talk about buzz kill. Thomas Edison tried 10000 light bulb designs until he got one that worked. Keep pitching ideas, but sell it as a great idea with passion and reason and design thought. Even then if we don't do it, it doesn't mean these are bad ideas, it just means the timing is bad as we're going gold asap and its too much work. Most of your ideas are good, but we are only doing super easy "should do" and "must do" tasks at the moment.