PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

  • A18 Stable is Out!

    Votes: 2 66.7%

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    Votes: 1 33.3%
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    3
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New gun scrapping/crafting system for A18Guns can be scrapped into parts, like an Ak47 can be scrapped into Ak 47 Parts.

An Ak might yield 5 AK47 parts, but a new AK would take 10 parts to craft so you can't 1 to 1 upgrade easily.

You can craft a new faulty AK from 10 AK parts, wood, forged iron, duct tape, etc, if you have the automatic weapons rank 1 perk. If you get rank 5 you could craft a great Ak from 50 parts, forged iron, duct tape, etc. The cost to craft a higher quality weapon will scale with each rank.

T3 weapons is an M60, it would take M60 parts, forged steel, mech parts, etc.

Quality is governed by the perk, such as automatic weapons in this case.

Tools will use the same system. Scrap to parts, crafted from parts.

This system solves people not having a reason to loot, if you want the best gear you need to find a lot of guns, scrap them to parts and then craft a nice one. You can sell the parts at traders, smelt them down, etc. Maybe scrap them to iron, we'll have to see.

Instead of a schematic to find and burn up crafting, you find the parts or guns. More immersive. The perk lets you craft it and dictates the quality of the perk. Shotgun messiah for shotguns, gunslinger for handguns, deadeye for sniper rifles, etc.
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This is a pretty creative idea. Have to see how it plays before I can judge but it sounds great.

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Repair kits are gone, way to much of a wild goose chase to do something simple. We're using forged steel to repair most T3 weapons, forged iron for T2 weapons. They scrap to to name_of_the_gun_parts.
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I'm gonna get some popcorn now and wait for the "You removed Repair Kits!" rage to roll in ;)

 
We get it you guys like complex crafting, and that is coming. Just not for repair kits. Lets make crafting stuff that changes your in game life complex, not repair. Its rewarding to build a minibike collecting all the various pieces, but repair shouldn't be overly complex..
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Madmole just solved #Ican'tFindEnoughBonesGates

 
C) We obviously have vastly different ideas of what "overly complex" means. Not a single thing crafted in this game is overly complex. It would have to be complex to have a chance to be overly complex.
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For anyone to say they don't think there were problems with repair kits, they surely must have missed out on the hot debates over bones and glue and the ability to find enough of them to keep up with repair kits.

 
This is a pretty creative idea. Have to see how it plays before I can judge but it sounds great.
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I'm gonna get some popcorn now and wait for the "You removed Repair Kits!" rage to roll in ;)
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Gods, you are so late. Just read all the previous posts regardiong the repair kits. Anyway in the end madmole has stated that repair kits are staying but he wants to simply the recipe for it.

 
Gods, you are so late. Just read all the previous posts regardiong the repair kits. Anyway in the end madmole has stated that repair kits are staying but he wants to simply the recipe for it.
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Yeah I did not realize how far back in the pages I was. Still it was fun reading.

 
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I would because I have no idea how guns work... and duct tape fixes everything ;)
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Madmole, I see something there. :smile-new:

Make duct tape the ONLY ingredient to repair... well, everything.

Make glue and duct tape slightly more abundant in loot.

Just get rid of the bones.

Make glue craftable from corn with a perk for late game?

 
adding in misfires would not make the game any harder.
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Perhaps, but it would certainly add to the horror aspect of the game.

It also also adds interesting gameplay decisions. Do you use the powerful SMG, or the pistol that you know for certain won't fail you at the worst possible time?

 
After mulling over the last few days conversation, here is what ran through my head:

Instead of investing a bunch of man hours removing things that work fine in the game (repair kits) invest that time in that deep additional crafting, vehicle mods and the like you don't have time for.

You want to kick the game out asap, but are strip mining and replacing systems that work fine and it is just bogging you guys down.. keep your eyes on the prize.

You mention crafting repair kits is too hard, but then turn around and want to make more complex crafting items. If new players aren't sticking around for the easy stuff, they won't stick around for the harder stuff later.

Also when talking about difficult crafting, consider a "kid's game" like minecraft.. and those ungodly complex redstone machines people have been making for years now. If a new player can't make a repair kit in 7 days, theres a problem with how the information is given them, not the process.

As someone else suggested, invest time in the journal and popup tutorial tool tips and the like. People shouldn't have to google something, watch a youtube video, or search in forums to figure it out.

Example: Two friends of ours are regular 7 days players, with more than 1000 hours under their belts. They however do NOT frequent the forums or watch youtube playthrough or tutorial videos.

Day 50 of a17, and they STILL don't understand the new clothing system, what hampers stamina, or the impact of mods vs quality because it really isn't even explained anywhere at all. They don't understand how putting a jacket on can cool them off because it doesn't make any sense at all.

They don't know what all mods are even available, or how to find out what those mods do to help them survive better.

Build that information into the trader quest system, since its already in place. Have the trader give them the instructions like how to make a repair kit, or give you a list of what mods are out there and what they do, but don't bury it in a "new journal entry". Pop the tutorial open, and stick it in their faces so to can either read the info or dismiss it. (Or turn it off in the settings, and have it default to on.)

By the time they realized there was a bunch of stuff in the journal, there were SO many new unread items they just closed the journal because it was overwhelming.

Other games get it right.. they have popup tutorials for every new game mechanic, they don't just bury the info somewhere and hope they can find it. The game mechanics like the repair kit are just fine. Whats missing is teaching players how to use them.

Another good example is the perks menu. They constantly ask why they can't unlock something, and they have to told to mouse over something else to see what they need to do. That info should be server up to them in a popup, like "You can't unlock this until you have x points in this ability" They should have to hunt for it, or ask where the information is.

If seasoned players can't figure some of these things out without asking or an internet searches , new players don't stand a chance...and it doesn't matter how complex or easy a recipe is.. without a robust tutorial system in place, they just won't get the information they need.

 
Indeed A17 does rock. It just feels so deep now with meaningful perk choices, POIs that are so much more interesting, AI that will scare the crap out of you and shred tried and true base designs... New combat, vehicles, mods, new everything to be honest. There is too much to mention, but as a whole, this is the version I have personally been waiting for. To me this is the first version of 7 days that is feature complete for the most part. Having all systems in place for the first time is a big game changer. After this build its just more content, no brand new systems are needed.

I want this......

 
WHAT IF there was a technalogicly fortified POI with zombies in it of course, and involved in the science perk was a way to interact with turrets and other automatic defenses the build may have. Oh yea and we can find a taser whip there

 
Something else I realized that bugged me about a17...

I LOVE the ai is WORLDS better than a16 (we stopped playing that because of the zombies running in circles) BUT horde nights are just way too easy now because of the kill platform option.

You can't really build a dependable base because they'll just plough through it, and if you do take advantage of the ai, its laughably easy.

Faatal: Can a "bloodmoon frenzy" be added, so either on nights or horde nights, the ai ignores block density a percentage of the time, and just tries a direct line to the player?

Elevated tunnel traps wouldn't be viable anymore, because a percentage of the zombies would just be destroying the platform base or its defenses.

I know you have a LOT on your plate and you've done an amazing job on the ai, but maybe something simple like this would shake up bloodmoon/night hordes to make defendable bases practical again?

Its human nature to exploit game mechanics, and you can't completely stop people cheesing the system (Minecraft's zombie spawner xp farming comes to mind.) But tossing some randomness/stupidity into the horde night ai might be just enough to make the platform run defense less that 100% safe.

We used to be concerned about horde nights and now they are just safe xp shooting galleries, and the real challenge gameplay now is quest dungeon crawling.

I know you nerfed block damage to make bases more viable and attractive, but it is just too easy to cheese the bloodmoon ai as it is right now.

 
If you find a gun on day one and don't know the game, it is a massive process to craft a repair kit.
&lt;ingredient name="resourceMechanicalParts" count="2"/&gt;

&lt;ingredient name="resourceOil" count="1"/&gt;

&lt;ingredient name="resourceCloth" count="1"/&gt;

&lt;ingredient name="resourceDuctTape" count="1"/&gt;

For the parts, you'll need to find a wrench and figure out the harvest minigame, and also figure out what actually drops mechanical parts.

The oil you will need a chemistry station which requires a perk and this:

&lt;ingredient name="toolBeaker" count="2"/&gt;

&lt;ingredient name="burningBarrelPlayer" count="1"/&gt;

&lt;ingredient name="toolCookingPot" count="3"/&gt;

&lt;ingredient name="resourceMetalPipe" count="15"/&gt;

&lt;ingredient name="resourceWood" count="40"/&gt;

and then you'll need to go to the desert and mine shale, and need shovel and pickaxe to do that.

I could list recipes but won't for now. You'll need to find an empty can.

Cloth you'll need to find some drapes or tent to harvest or clothes to scrap.

Ductape requires glue and cloth so next you will need to get a campfire and cooking pot, water and bones.

Finally you can make everything and have your repair kit. Of course you can find it all in loot, even that is going to take some work. Its not impossible, but it is a classic example of overdesign.

Anyhow, as I've said we might keep repair kits, but the process to make one could be simplified and the game would be better. And please people no we're not dumbing the game down, we're just making it easier to enjoy. There will be deep crafting, that is where it actually IS enjoyable. Repair sucks. I don't want to spend time at it, I want to acquire new tech.
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It is major part of the survival element in the early game to not have everything you need.

I have never managed to wear out a gun faster than I could find the things for a repair kit.

But say you do have a broken gun, you as a player had better get to work finding another gun, or a means to repair it.

The same way you better be looking for ammo if you are running low.

That hustle to survive is literally the entire spirit of the game.

Is recipe complexity really a good excuse to remove repair kits?

I fear that if you take out all of the even semi-complex recipes like repair kits then you will dumb down the game too much.

It is not really all that complex, all of the components are relatively easy to find, hell you can even find the repair kits themselves.

Even Oil is not a roadblock here, I have never in all my hours in the game had to craft oil more than just to try out the recipe because it is relativity easy to find.

Why not have a high road and a low road to repairing items?

Why not have an emergency repair kit that is of limited effectiveness and maybe capped at X% durability and then whatever tech thing you have in mind can be "the better solution" for the end game when you have a fully working shop.

Why replace the repair kit with X-type gun parts?

In the early game, am I going to be repairing that faulty quality pistol?

Or would I just replace it with the next better one I find until I find something that is not a pistol?

At the end game, am I even going to use a pistol and thus pistol parts at all? Or are they going to waste space in a chest?

At least the repair kit stays relevant for the entire span of the game.

 
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Making zombies randomly use different ai methods would do the trick of making them way less predictable.

Some (or most) just use the straight line of sight approach, other the more advanced pathing.

If every zombie is using the same path, not matter how good that one is, its way easier for the player to understand that, and defend against that.

If most just run straight at the player, the player might get lazy building a direct defense and picking them off from the wall, until one uses the smarter path and ambushes the player....

 
For anyone to say they don't think there were problems with repair kits, they surely must have missed out on the hot debates over bones and glue and the ability to find enough of them to keep up with repair kits.
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No people didnt miss out, most of us looked at those debates and shook our heads. There was no issue on bones or glue. The only way there WAS one is if people who stayed in their area expected bones and things of that nature to come to them.

There is nothing in this game that I consider rare or complex. Maybe because I am not a passive player but an aggressive one. I go out and actively seek what I want.

As for the subject of complexity, Im not sure why we are even having it. All indications are those who want more complex mechanics are going to be disappointed in the end. This game is not going in that direction and probably never will again. It has been moving AWAY from that direction for several alphas now. We had that moment pre a14. And its over now. I love the ideas some people put forward though, if i decide to maintain interest in this game post A18 i will definitely be using those ideas to add to my mod. There is a lot of creativity here, and some great ideas that deserve to see the light of day.

I just think it is a waste of time to expect complex things being suggested to be looked at. Your time is better spent offering suggestion on what to cut or remove. Since thats the new trend.

 
Does the forum have the ability to limit a post to XX characters like Twitter? Like a resume, keep it short and to the point - that's my 2 cents.

 
After mulling over the last few days conversation, here is what ran through my head:
Instead of investing a bunch of man hours removing things that work fine in the game (repair kits) invest that time in that deep additional crafting, vehicle mods and the like you don't have time for.

You want to kick the game out asap, but are strip mining and replacing systems that work fine and it is just bogging you guys down.. keep your eyes on the prize.

You mention crafting repair kits is too hard, but then turn around and want to make more complex crafting items. If new players aren't sticking around for the easy stuff, they won't stick around for the harder stuff later.

Also when talking about difficult crafting, consider a "kid's game" like minecraft.. and those ungodly complex redstone machines people have been making for years now. If a new player can't make a repair kit in 7 days, theres a problem with how the information is given them, not the process.

As someone else suggested, invest time in the journal and popup tutorial tool tips and the like. People shouldn't have to google something, watch a youtube video, or search in forums to figure it out.

Example: Two friends of ours are regular 7 days players, with more than 1000 hours under their belts. They however do NOT frequent the forums or watch youtube playthrough or tutorial videos.

Day 50 of a17, and they STILL don't understand the new clothing system, what hampers stamina, or the impact of mods vs quality because it really isn't even explained anywhere at all. They don't understand how putting a jacket on can cool them off because it doesn't make any sense at all.

They don't know what all mods are even available, or how to find out what those mods do to help them survive better.

Build that information into the trader quest system, since its already in place. Have the trader give them the instructions like how to make a repair kit, or give you a list of what mods are out there and what they do, but don't bury it in a "new journal entry". Pop the tutorial open, and stick it in their faces so to can either read the info or dismiss it. (Or turn it off in the settings, and have it default to on.)

By the time they realized there was a bunch of stuff in the journal, there were SO many new unread items they just closed the journal because it was overwhelming.

Other games get it right.. they have popup tutorials for every new game mechanic, they don't just bury the info somewhere and hope they can find it. The game mechanics like the repair kit are just fine. Whats missing is teaching players how to use them.

Another good example is the perks menu. They constantly ask why they can't unlock something, and they have to told to mouse over something else to see what they need to do. That info should be server up to them in a popup, like "You can't unlock this until you have x points in this ability" They should have to hunt for it, or ask where the information is.

If seasoned players can't figure some of these things out without asking or an internet searches , new players don't stand a chance...and it doesn't matter how complex or easy a recipe is.. without a robust tutorial system in place, they just won't get the information they need.
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They're really not...
Find pile of bones on the road, which you guys put in so we can get bones easier, add jar of dirty water... and if you're making forged iron then jars are SUPER easy to make.

Make duct tape with 1 glue and 1 cloth. Profit.

It's not hard at all.

What you call "Legacy" a lot of other folks consider to be enjoyable gameplay. There's literally no reason to make it any simpler than it already is, and I don't understand WHY you're all trying to make the game even simplier just to chase new players.

Realistically, with how long the game has been in alpha, you're not going to have a lot of new players. If you want to help them, then use the JOURNAL SYSTEM YOU HAVE to explain concepts. It's vastly underused right now and would be a good QOL improvement.
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No people didnt miss out, most of us looked at those debates and shook our heads. There was no issue on bones or glue. The only way there WAS one is if people who stayed in their area expected bones and things of that nature to come to them.
There is nothing in this game that I consider rare or complex. Maybe because I am not a passive player but an aggressive one. I go out and actively seek what I want.

As for the subject of complexity, Im not sure why we are even having it. All indications are those who want more complex mechanics are going to be disappointed in the end. This game is not going in that direction and probably never will again. It has been moving AWAY from that direction for several alphas now. We had that moment pre a14. And its over now. I love the ideas some people put forward though, if i decide to maintain interest in this game post A18 i will definitely be using those ideas to add to my mod. There is a lot of creativity here, and some great ideas that deserve to see the light of day.

I just think it is a waste of time to expect complex things being suggested to be looked at. Your time is better spent offering suggestion on what to cut or remove. Since thats the new trend.
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I agree, it is already stupidly simple, if they "simplify" much more I might as well go play minecraft.

Your player base is already locked in, most of us are adults who want a game with at least some complexity, stop trying to chase down the 12 year olds playing fortnight, it is not going to happen.

 
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When there is a feature that group A don't care about and group B expresses their concern over the removal of it, you hear things from group A like "stop beating a dead horse" and "this is what they want, just give it up". Later when features are removed that group A cares about, it's a different story.

 
Does the forum have the ability to limit a post to XX characters like Twitter? Like a resume, keep it short and to the point - that's my 2 cents.
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If I remember correctly it was about three-quarters of the script to "Blazing Saddles" last time I checked. Plenty of space for waffling :-)

 
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