PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

  • A18 Stable is Out!

    Votes: 2 66.7%

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    Votes: 1 33.3%
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Gazz only says it's OP because he's just looking at the raw numbers and not thinking abstractly about it. Ya each shell is more powerful then a single 7.62 but you have to take into account some of these things:
1. Range

2. Pellet Spread

3. Shots per minute

4. Ammo capacity/Reloads per minute

5. Accuracy &lt;--&gt; Effectiveness

6. AOE/Lack thereof

7. Tier placement comparisons

8. Ammo/Weapon viability against stronger/armored enemies

7. Ammo/Weapon viability against Hordes of all levels

8. Role of a shotgun (right now it's a single shot / single enemy weapon, should be a powerful short range AOE devastator)

9. Does its design full fill a fantasy or is too similar to other Ranged/Melee weapons

etc.
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Last night I checked XML as well as tried it in a test game but came up empty: Wasn't there a time when shotgun gave a stacking "winded" debuff to the target slowing it down? Doesn't seem to be the case ATM

Even if it never were the case, wouldn't this be a way to make the shotgun unique?

 
What if you moved some of the sleeper zombies outside the PoI and increased wake up radius somewhat?
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Jax already has this covered with a mod for double wandering horde sizes and double wilderness spawns, so just add those modlets. I haven't seen any performance hits from using them at all yesterday for the first time, and its great to see more activity in the world.

It doesn't really help those huge tracts of nothing on the map though. If an area doesn't have a city, other that resources irs just dead space between cities.

IMHO cities should go back to the hub city concept, and each city should have one of maybe 75% of the pois. That way none would be gone missing, cities would be larger, and less of the map would be empty.

The downside is the current city system flattens the city area, and that needs to be addressed first.

Smaller worlds are ok IF a larger percentage is covered by areas with pois.

 
The yellow paper challenge notes that bring you to some location in the wild where you can watch zombies pop in seems even gamier. I don't get a good feeling playing the game during these moments.
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This!

I did a "kill the snow zombies" challenge. First thought, go to the snow biome. They should either spawn nearby or at least I should be reasonably near to their spawning point. They were not nearby. My snow zombies had apparently decided to climb to the top of a hill in the middle of the desert where I couldn't help but see them pop into existence.

Slightly disappointing as the new RWG would make finding a mission spawn point in an appropriate biome pretty ■■■■ trivial.

 
You guys are talking about populating cities like it has to be totally black or white. I didn't imply it should go back to being 20 cops/dogs/vultures on instant respawn like in A11, making looting anything almost impossible. But there's quite some margin between having impossible to clear cities and having the abandoned village syndrom we have now.
Having 2-3 days respawn times for POIs in cities would give you both a challenge the first time you visit the neighborhood AND more than enough time to loot the POIs once the streets are cleared. Yes you'd have to work a bit more than now to be able to access the loot, but hey, that's actually balancing out the fact that 10m from there there's just another POI ready to be looted, as opposed to an isolated POI in the wild after which you have to get running again to find something else. And one might argue you could raise the gamestage of a POI depending on its surroundings, thus yielding better loot if it's flagged as a "dense area".

Decisions, risk/reward, consequences. Right now there ain't no decisions to be made, cities are the place to be from Day 1 if you want to optimize your time.

I mean, the random encounter might just solve the problem if done right, I don't know. But that's probably not coming anytime soon if you want to implement a variety of encounters. I thought modifying spawning rules around POIs would be much easier in the meantime.
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Agreed, in cities, there should be zombies outside because there are many POIs near each other, so it should be risk/reward. Don't want to risk getting sandwiched? Go to a single POI in the wild.

 
Don’t you think with the new AI, zombies in large numbers outside of buildings could be a serious threat but extremely fun?
Please hear me out...
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...and @madmole...

On our MP server in A17 (4 players) we had a large wandering horde while we were trying to do a quest poi. Spiders and cops also joined the party along with a few screamers, and it was a BLAST.

We chopped and made it to the rooftop, and had to really struggle to not leave the area. Two players were careless and fell off the roof doing the early a17 stamina melee dance, and watching them run around the house while we gave them cover fire was hysterical! One made it back up, while the other got wrecked, and we STILL talk about that experience as being the best one a17 delivered.

IMHO we nee these types of experiences back in a18+.

(As a side note, a17 exp MP balance still seems high combined gamestage wise.. as a quick fix, couldn't we just get a game option slider with a multiplier option? 2 players, bm 21, and we had cops and spiders with just moderate to light kill counts for that play time in that game.)

 


The mid part of the slider could be the vanilla multiplier, and it could then be turned down or up to adjust how nasty the game gets the more people are playing.

 
Sounds awesome, but will it work well with vehicles in game? Especially gyrocopter? I feel that will be huge roadblock
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The gyro is endgame and should give you some travel safety...thats why you work to earn it. A simple random event of a flock of irradiated vultures could wreck your day though.

(@Madmole: Are irradiated vultures as fast as the gyro? If not maybe they should be to make avoiding them in the distance while flying a thing?)

(Not that I've even had a gyro more than a game day without a restart a18, or even seen a demolisher yet.)

 
...and @madmole...
On our MP server in A17 (4 players) we had a large wandering horde while we were trying to do a quest poi. Spiders and cops also joined the party along with a few screamers, and it was a BLAST.

We chopped and made it to the rooftop, and had to really struggle to not leave the area. Two players were careless and fell off the roof doing the early a17 stamina melee dance, and watching them run around the house while we gave them cover fire was hysterical! One made it back up, while the other got wrecked, and we STILL talk about that experience as being the best one a17 delivered.

IMHO we need these types of experiences back in a18+.
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See, this sounds like a lot of fun!

Having to work together not just in POIs, but around them just adds more to the overall experience. The struggle to get to the loot is another way to balance the importance of crafting as well.

Thanks for sharing!

Loc

 
What would be a cool event is if the plane delivering your air drop, instead crashed and you'd have to go rescue the survivors. After that they live at the trader and offer something akin to old world knowledge. This could be anything.

You could also have it where if you don't get there in time the bandits would; killing everyone and taking the loots.

The event would be rare though.

Just my thinking that there needs to be more "World" events. Game is so big that you could do so much in this regard; Nukes, plagues, weather events, take overs, SOS rescues, random survivor colonies springing up, battles between factions/zombies, etc.

Makes the world feel dynamic and alive. Maybe the sequel?
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It's possible it will be in this game at some point. See the quote below:

Originally Posted by madmole

I will stick to my guns that the encounter system will do everything its meant to, which is sell the player into feeling like the world is teaming with zombies, without spawning guys that just sit there and eat cpu waiting for a player to stumble across them and count against maxalive. Your method (our old method) is careless and wasteful, we're doing something elegant we can control, and keep people at 60fps at all times. ONce the player leaves it despawns and we can send someone else an encounter. We can do mini blood moons in the near future, wandering traders, bandit patrols, wandering hordes, a few zombies eating a corpse, a damsel in distress, all game staged for the person we plan it for.

From &lt;https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?111778-Alpha-18-Dev-Diary!!/page2668&gt;

 
...and @madmole...
On our MP server in A17 (4 players) we had a large wandering horde while we were trying to do a quest poi. Spiders and cops also joined the party along with a few screamers, and it was a BLAST.

We chopped and made it to the rooftop, and had to really struggle to not leave the area. Two players were careless and fell off the roof doing the early a17 stamina melee dance, and watching them run around the house while we gave them cover fire was hysterical! One made it back up, while the other got wrecked, and we STILL talk about that experience as being the best one a17 delivered.

IMHO we nee these types of experiences back in a18+.
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And that is exactly what the encounter system MM talked about could deliver (if done right), all the more reason to hope it will be made. This event you are describing is exceptional because it is the exception. Anything gets blunt if it happens all the time (sleepers in cupboards, default zombies around a house).

Also wandering zombies are still in the game, nothing prevents this from happening in A18 too. Or am I missing something?

 
And that is exactly what the encounter system MM talked about could deliver (if done right), all the more reason to hope it will be made. This event you are describing is exceptional because it is the exception. Anything gets blunt if it happens all the time (sleepers in cupboards, default zombies around a house).
Also wandering zombies are still in the game, nothing prevents this from happening in A18 too. Or am I missing something?
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I think the thing that makes wandering hordes different than say 20 zombies gathered around a POI is that the wandering horde is on a mission and can end up walking past you if you don’t interact with them. They don’t always force some kind of gameplay choice necessarily unlike the obstacles that zombie clusters could offer. Maybe a combination of clusters, wanderers and random events? Seems like a recipe for greatness!

Loc

 
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Don’t you think with the new AI, zombies in large numbers outside of buildings could be a serious threat but extremely fun?
Please hear me out...

Picture two dozen or so zombies outside of a POI you want to loot but you can’t just roll up to like you can now, not a chance. You have to plan. You can try to shoot your way through or maybe you can distract them or lead them away (throwing rocks or making noise somewhere else). The tension this creates alone could be spectacular. Then if you manage to lead them away, imagine the tension of looting that POI knowing all those zombies could hear you making noise and come back to mess you up! I mean, c’mon, doesn’t that sound awesome? THE TENSION IS WHAT MAKES IT FUN. Knowing you overcame a potentially crappy situation and get out alive!

I realize there are limitations, but what is the difference RESOURCE WISE between a dozen or two zombies outside of a POI vs. 6 or 7 inside a POI plus maybe a handful more popping over to say hello from a random event? Same numbers, different locations. I’d rather be pinned down in a POI I worked hard to get into than be able to piece out of any POI because the zombies are nowhere to be found outside. Obviously this is just my opinion, but I’d like to think others share the vision.

Loc
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I'm just saying if we somehow added a lot of zombies people won't like it. Some might, but most people would find it annoying if there were too many, everywhere, all the time. Looting a POI would turns into a chore like looting old corpses and cleaning up gore blocks was, because you would have to clear a whole block before you could do your task, or we'd need to make these outside guys deaf once you snuck past them and got inside. I think the sweet spot would be somewhere in between and the random encounter system could handle it. Rather than just fill the town with zombies, we know where you are going, spawn a group near the POI one out of 4 times or something. Do a wandering group walk once in a while. Same thing, to the player there is something to overcome, without 500 zeds in memory constantly. Maybe we could expose a random encounter slider so if you like more action you see more of these.

 
I think you need to be careful what you wish for. Sure a ton of zombies outside a POI sounds fun. The first 10 times that is. State of Decay 2 has a ton of zombies everywhere, all the time. It's fun til it's not. It starts to get tedious and instead of thinking "oh I need to run to that POI to loot some fuel" you think "♥♥♥♥, I gotta kill 50 zombies to get there. I think I'll play 7d2d instead."
The encounter system that's been discussed sounds like a much better way to handle it.
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Yes, player fatigue is a real thing which is why biome guys were thinned. I couldn't do one POI without getting sandwiched in. Some pois you "jump down" into and you trust you'll get out later, or build a ladder now. That said, 10 guys follow you down in there and early game its too much.

 
I can't decide what I personally think is better in regards to zombie counts in the world.On one side, a ton of zombies would be impressive and a lot of fun. On the other side, if it was like that all the time, there would be no surprises and being surprised is fun too.

I imagine trying to loot a POI with a ton of zombies outside being a challenge, which is good. It might take all day.

However, when I go home and come back the next day, I wouldn't want to do the same thing all over again just to hit the POI next door.

That would get old real fast.

I would probably do something like a reversed heat map for cities. I'll just call it a cool map for easier reference. At first a ton of zombies can spawn in city chunks because the cool map is high. The more you kill in a chunk, the lower the cool map goes. If you happen to come back the next day, those chunks probably won't trigger spawns. After a couple, maybe a few would. If you haven't come back in over a week, the cool map would be at max again and large groups spawn in those city chunks again.

I am pretty sure the encounter system will solve a lot of this, but I can't help but think that it will feel gamey.

For example, the digging quests. The zombies that show up the instant you empty the chest is a cool idea... clever the first time, not so much after that. It's actually funny to try to grab it and look around to watch them pop in. The yellow paper challenge notes that bring you to some location in the wild where you can watch zombies pop in seems even gamier. I don't get a good feeling playing the game during these moments.
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I think the encounter system will work fine. Pacing is what matters. We'll monitor a player's stats and roll dice and decide its time for him to get something. Pull from the grab bag of tricks and throw it out there and let the fun begin. But constantly dealing with thick mobs of undead isn't fun, its tedious. But showing up to do a simple fetch quest but there happens to be a random horde mulling around where you need to be could be a lot of fun... do you kill them? Lead them to the edge of town or off a cliff? Abort? Either way its a decision, and it cuts into your ever burning daylight. That kind of stuff is fun, not a wall of zeds everywhere (tedious and slow fps)

There is a huge list of improvement tasks for the dig quests.

 
I'm just saying if we somehow added a lot of zombies people won't like it. Some might, but most people would find it annoying if there were too many, everywhere, all the time. Looting a POI would turns into a chore like looting old corpses and cleaning up gore blocks was, because you would have to clear a whole block before you could do your task, or we'd need to make these outside guys deaf once you snuck past them and got inside. I think the sweet spot would be somewhere in between and the random encounter system could handle it. Rather than just fill the town with zombies, we know where you are going, spawn a group near the POI one out of 4 times or something. Do a wandering group walk once in a while. Same thing, to the player there is something to overcome, without 500 zeds in memory constantly. Maybe we could expose a random encounter slider so if you like more action you see more of these.
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I think we are getting closer to the same page. I agree with the too many all the time sentiment, so some kind of mashup of clusters, wanderers and random events could be the ticket. It could create a similar effect but be more dynamic.

Loc

 
Yup I'd much rather have a random encounter to mix things up and make the world feel alive than popping the same zombies over and over. For more challenge I'd suggest always nightmare run, each encounter can be dangerous, having 1 biker zombie bolting at u already gives me the s***'s.


Best foreplay I've ever had, literally shouted "Yes, oh yes please, when is it coming!?!"

People on train thought I was watching porn.
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LOL awesome. I can't wait for it either.

 
Too many everywhere isn't what we ask for though, but more of them guarding the biggest cities full of loot. Your random encounter system might or might not cut it, but if you don't account for the location of the POI when you roll the dice, it's not gonna solve the issue of cities being a walk in the park and isolated houses in the wild being worthless. You'll get random events regardless of if you loot a house in the wild or a house in the middle of the capital city, so the capital city will still be the best Day 1 choice.

But well, let's just see how it goes.

 
I think the encounter system will work fine. Pacing is what matters. We'll monitor a player's stats and roll dice and decide its time for him to get something. Pull from the grab bag of tricks and throw it out there and let the fun begin. But constantly dealing with thick mobs of undead isn't fun, its tedious. But showing up to do a simple fetch quest but there happens to be a random horde mulling around where you need to be could be a lot of fun... do you kill them? Lead them to the edge of town or off a cliff? Abort? Either way its a decision, and it cuts into your ever burning daylight. That kind of stuff is fun, not a wall of zeds everywhere (tedious and slow fps)
There is a huge list of improvement tasks for the dig quests.
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I don't know if I like the sound of the encounter system compared to actual region-based spawning. It sounds to me like this encounter system is just going to spawn things on you no matter where you are or what you're doing. If I carefully scout a town and see that it's clear to move in, but then the game randomly decides to start spawning crap on me while i'm trying to break in a a POI - that's not even close to the same as how it was before.

Or if you're out in the wilderness away from any POIs and in a place you've cleared completely of zombies just hours before, it would make no sense to have the encounter system suddenly decide to spawn something on top of you. Again, it would be nothing like before where the respawn delay was 4 or 5 days or whatever it was in wilderness.

The encounter system sounds like it could just end up like the sleeper system is now - which is highly predictable and gamey.

 
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