PC Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[Quantum Blue]

Quantum can you add to the faq that we're planning a localization update to the four supported languages this winter, and after that will will look at the challenges to Chinese, Portugese, Japanese and Russian?

Done. (In the Coming to 7D2D section.)

You could have also pointed HollowPrime to the FAQ for Dev Diary Madmole favored response recommendations as well. (It's in the first post.)

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?129219-Alpha-18-General-play-answers-ideas-and-or-concepts

 

[Gareee]

We're planning a random encounter system to keep things interesting and with more optimizations we can get more zombies alive.

@Madmole:

If I had a Christmas list here, it would be for the first pass of the random encounter system, and improved cities with elevation changes and reincorporating the old hub city idea.

And of course more books...

Course I haven't been good this year, and I'l probably get coal, but I'm hoping it comes with some nitrate.

 

[meganoth]

Oh but I don't agree at all. It was a very important decision. That's why I very rarely broke my decision and scrapped ore, thereby losing material in the process. If it were not important than I would have had no reason not to scrap ore. You completely missed my point. It was an easy decision for me to make because it was important not to waste a valuable resource.

Exactly. And a decision that is easy is never a hard one. Do I take the 1000 gold or the apple? Well, the decision is easy. Do I take this stack of 200 iron ore to my forge and make forged iron out of it or do lose one fourth of it to make scrap iron that I have lots and lots from looting already? Well, the decision is easy as well.

Now that non-decision is gone. You will still put the iron you mine into your forge because you need lots of forged iron. And lots of darts for your dart traps.

The second question I want to ask: How often have you smelted scrap iron out of your forge because you needed scrap iron for crafting? That probably small percentage of your whole iron throughput is the amount of smelting you could possibly safe by this change now. In my case at least that amount is rather insignificant and I loose a lot more potential smelting time by having the forge run out of wood or material to smelt.

 

[JaxTeller718]

Exactly. And a decision that is easy is never a hard one. Do I take the 1000 gold or the apple? Well, the decision is easy.

Not really. What if you have 5,000 gold but the traders are out of food, you just got food poisoned and a zombie is after you. Id say the apple is way more valuable.

 

[MechanicalLens]

I looked everywhere and, because I'm often as blind as a bat, I couldn't find the official bug tracker, so I thought I'd just might as well post this here.

Yeah... player planted trees currently have issues. Lol

https://youtu.be/Znkmb-CQL2Y

 

[madmole]

From what I understand there's no "city marker" somewhere in your data. That being said, I suppose there is a POI marker. What you could probably do is create a new "heatmap" metric that only goes up when there is a POI close by. This heat would obviously spawn zombies in its vicinity, but the toughness of those zombies would be decided by how much the heatmap indicator is : in other terms, how many buildings are close enough to raise the marker. Basically, more zombies around POIs, and cities will automatically be a bit more swarmed overall. No need to actually spawn 20 of them to give us a challenge, if they get harder the more buildings are around.
I understand that you have to actually account for MP, because this could create deadends in your maxAlive pool. I guess I don't have a perfect solution, but you have some options :

- have a limited number of zombies a player can spawn at once, the first to spawn is the first to die of old age when the max is hit

- reduce sleepers in POIs if there is a lot of spawning around it

- make it an option, because for SP the maxAlive would actually never be an issue unless you cheese it, and it would just work great

People say they want more zombies, but the game isn't what it was back in the day when we had hub cities. Zombies were stupid and you could kill a couple and POIs were so short to loot it took 30 seconds to get everything and get out. Worst case scenario was maybe one might here you and beat on the wall out side. Rarely would they come in after you, or find you in a POI, and they were so basic getting out was a no brainer.

Now a quest and reward is at stake, and half a dozen zombies wandering in (or way more with the good AI we have now) would be a death sentence. In my opinion, even if we could add lots of zombies to cities, it would make the game worse. There is no pacing with a city full of zombies. You have to waste all your ammo and time clearing a block area so that you can even attempt to start on the POI, and often you would not have the ammo, meds and time left in the day to do it. I know, because priort to A18's release the thicker zed outdoor population was annoying as hell, and thats way thinner than what it was in the past.

So what sounds cool, isn't always fun. It ruins your plans and becomes a nuisance instead of something cool. I think the random encounter system will be better than just a hundred guys mulling around outside. Once in a while you might get sandwiched in, but not every time, and it won't always be kill 50 guys so I can get started on this POI.

I'm not saying it couldn't be cool, but it would be more work than simply spawning them and letting the AI take place.

 

[bluepharoh]

I cannot. I forgot my glasses at home...
- - - Updated - - -

Good thing I tested the area before I started building. 3 invisible trees. 3!

If you find the invisible trees you can get rid of them by digging the ground under and around them. You won't hear or see anything happen but the tree falls and you are free to place blocks again. Worked for me at least.

 

[Mechanimal]

People say they want more zombies, but the game isn't what it was back in the day when we had hub cities. Zombies were stupid and you could kill a couple and POIs were so short to loot it took 30 seconds to get everything and get out. Worst case scenario was maybe one might here you and beat on the wall out side. Rarely would they come in after you, or find you in a POI, and they were so basic getting out was a no brainer.
Now a quest and reward is at stake, and half a dozen zombies wandering in (or way more with the good AI we have now) would be a death sentence. In my opinion, even if we could add lots of zombies to cities, it would make the game worse. There is no pacing with a city full of zombies. You have to waste all your ammo and time clearing a block area so that you can even attempt to start on the POI, and often you would not have the ammo, meds and time left in the day to do it. I know, because priort to A18's release the thicker zed outdoor population was annoying as hell, and thats way thinner than what it was in the past.

So what sounds cool, isn't always fun. It ruins your plans and becomes a nuisance instead of something cool. I think the random encounter system will be better than just a hundred guys mulling around outside. Once in a while you might get sandwiched in, but not every time, and it won't always be kill 50 guys so I can get started on this POI.

I'm not saying it couldn't be cool, but it would be more work than simply spawning them and letting the AI take place.

The AI improvements, better pathing, new "bread-crumb" system, rage mode, etc, has certainly made each and every zombo more threatening now. I really dig the added challenge, however holy heck has the Z count within POIs been nerfed compared to A17. Tackling a new POI was a serious endeavor, now I fly through them by comparison. Not complaining, I still get my ass handed to me sometimes, just acknowledging the balancing acts taking place, interesting to see/experience within and between alphas.

I would say they have been a bit overly nerfed in some POIs, but I also have to keep in mind that those were POIs I did in A17 and already knew their layout. My brain is not good at many things, however my navigation memory and spatial awareness is on point. I could draw a reasonably accurate map of Navezgane(even between a few alphas) and rebuild the vast majority of POIs in full 3D(minus most textures/color), so I know my opinion is biased in that way too.

I think the upcoming event system you are proposing is way better than just having some areas with a generically constant high z density. Heck that could even BE one of the "events". If you can observe the players map markers you could even have idle hordes randomly spawn in at those locations, for example(and if so do not tell us if you do or how it works, not right away anyhow, peeps will cheese/avoid it). Stuff like that. I see what you're getting at/working toward and hope these guys who want more Z in cities and whatnot do too, cause it'll have a similar effect as that did, but better and with a much higher range of variability/customization.

 

[meganoth]

Not really. What if you have 5,000 gold but the traders are out of food, you just got food poisoned and a zombie is after you. Id say the apple is way more valuable.

Shoot the zombie with the ak, buy the bicycle for 5000 from the trader and use the rest of the stamina to drive to the next vending machine. And be happy I didn't overpay for a nearly rotten apple :cocksure:

 

[Locusta]

People say they want more zombies, but the game isn't what it was back in the day when we had hub cities. Zombies were stupid and you could kill a couple and POIs were so short to loot it took 30 seconds to get everything and get out. Worst case scenario was maybe one might here you and beat on the wall out side. Rarely would they come in after you, or find you in a POI, and they were so basic getting out was a no brainer.
Now a quest and reward is at stake, and half a dozen zombies wandering in (or way more with the good AI we have now) would be a death sentence. In my opinion, even if we could add lots of zombies to cities, it would make the game worse. There is no pacing with a city full of zombies. You have to waste all your ammo and time clearing a block area so that you can even attempt to start on the POI, and often you would not have the ammo, meds and time left in the day to do it. I know, because priort to A18's release the thicker zed outdoor population was annoying as hell, and thats way thinner than what it was in the past.

So what sounds cool, isn't always fun. It ruins your plans and becomes a nuisance instead of something cool. I think the random encounter system will be better than just a hundred guys mulling around outside. Once in a while you might get sandwiched in, but not every time, and it won't always be kill 50 guys so I can get started on this POI.

I'm not saying it couldn't be cool, but it would be more work than simply spawning them and letting the AI take place.

Don’t you think with the new AI, zombies in large numbers outside of buildings could be a serious threat but extremely fun?

Please hear me out...

Picture two dozen or so zombies outside of a POI you want to loot but you can’t just roll up to like you can now, not a chance. You have to plan. You can try to shoot your way through or maybe you can distract them or lead them away (throwing rocks or making noise somewhere else). The tension this creates alone could be spectacular. Then if you manage to lead them away, imagine the tension of looting that POI knowing all those zombies could hear you making noise and come back to mess you up! I mean, c’mon, doesn’t that sound awesome? THE TENSION IS WHAT MAKES IT FUN. Knowing you overcame a potentially crappy situation and get out alive!

I realize there are limitations, but what is the difference RESOURCE WISE between a dozen or two zombies outside of a POI vs. 6 or 7 inside a POI plus maybe a handful more popping over to say hello from a random event? Same numbers, different locations. I’d rather be pinned down in a POI I worked hard to get into than be able to piece out of any POI because the zombies are nowhere to be found outside. Obviously this is just my opinion, but I’d like to think others share the vision.

Loc

 

[Laz Man]

People say they want more zombies, but the game isn't what it was back in the day when we had hub cities. Zombies were stupid and you could kill a couple and POIs were so short to loot it took 30 seconds to get everything and get out. Worst case scenario was maybe one might here you and beat on the wall out side. Rarely would they come in after you, or find you in a POI, and they were so basic getting out was a no brainer.
Now a quest and reward is at stake, and half a dozen zombies wandering in (or way more with the good AI we have now) would be a death sentence. In my opinion, even if we could add lots of zombies to cities, it would make the game worse. There is no pacing with a city full of zombies. You have to waste all your ammo and time clearing a block area so that you can even attempt to start on the POI, and often you would not have the ammo, meds and time left in the day to do it. I know, because priort to A18's release the thicker zed outdoor population was annoying as hell, and thats way thinner than what it was in the past.

So what sounds cool, isn't always fun. It ruins your plans and becomes a nuisance instead of something cool. I think the random encounter system will be better than just a hundred guys mulling around outside. Once in a while you might get sandwiched in, but not every time, and it won't always be kill 50 guys so I can get started on this POI.

I'm not saying it couldn't be cool, but it would be more work than simply spawning them and letting the AI take place.

I think some people like the idea of more zombies outside but dont understand what it would take to balance it out with everything else. With some A18 play time under my belt, I still get the occassionally zombie from outside coming in but it's not excessive. Feels right to me.

Hopefully the encounter system gets here sooner than later to address all the "no challenges" outside the loot pinata POI crowd.

 

[Johnny rebo]

I think some people like the idea of more zombies outside but dont understand what it would take to balance it out with everything else. With some A18 play time under my belt, I still get the occassionally zombie from outside coming in but it's not excessive. Feels right to me.
Hopefully the encounter system gets here sooner than later to address all the "no challenges" outside the loot pinata POI crowd.

Wife and I have been on quests and numerous times we’ve had wondering hordes show up and beat their way into a POI to find us. It’s fun!

 

[HungryZombie]

Don’t you think with the new AI, zombies in large numbers outside of buildings could be a serious threat but extremely fun?
Please hear me out...

Picture two dozen or so zombies outside of a POI you want to loot but you can’t just roll up to like you can now, not a chance. You have to plan. You can try to shoot your way through or maybe you can distract them or lead them away (throwing rocks or making noise somewhere else). The tension this creates alone could be spectacular. Then if you manage to lead them away, imagine the tension of looting that POI knowing all those zombies could hear you making noise and come back to mess you up! I mean, c’mon, doesn’t that sound awesome? THE TENSION IS WHAT MAKES IT FUN. Knowing you overcame a potentially crappy situation and get out alive!

I realize there are limitations, but what is the difference RESOURCE WISE between a dozen or two zombies outside of a POI vs. 6 or 7 inside a POI plus maybe a handful more popping over to say hello from a random event? Same numbers, different locations. I’d rather be pinned down in a POI I worked hard to get into than be able to piece out of any POI because the zombies are nowhere to be found outside. Obviously this is just my opinion, but I’d like to think others share the vision.

Loc

I think you need to be careful what you wish for. Sure a ton of zombies outside a POI sounds fun. The first 10 times that is. State of Decay 2 has a ton of zombies everywhere, all the time. It's fun til it's not. It starts to get tedious and instead of thinking "oh I need to run to that POI to loot some fuel" you think "♥♥♥♥, I gotta kill 50 zombies to get there. I think I'll play 7d2d instead."

The encounter system that's been discussed sounds like a much better way to handle it.

 

[yisssnakk]

I think you need to be careful what you wish for. Sure a ton of zombies outside a POI sounds fun. The first 10 times that is. State of Decay 2 has a ton of zombies everywhere, all the time. It's fun til it's not. It starts to get tedious and instead of thinking "oh I need to run to that POI to loot some fuel" you think "♥♥♥♥, I gotta kill 50 zombies to get there. I think I'll play 7d2d instead."
The encounter system that's been discussed sounds like a much better way to handle it.

I fully agree with this - with the new rage mode, or as player level increases and the chance for stronger zomboids increases, I simply have a hard time imagining what trying to explore city POI's would look like with mobs of wights, spiders and cops or feral soldiers running all over the joint.

Even a wandering horde can be challenging if they catch you unawares. Been playing a Fortitude focused build and using fists only for everything but hunting. THAT makes it challenging and a lot of fun.

 

[Locusta]

I think you need to be careful what you wish for. Sure a ton of zombies outside a POI sounds fun. The first 10 times that is. State of Decay 2 has a ton of zombies everywhere, all the time. It's fun til it's not. It starts to get tedious and instead of thinking "oh I need to run to that POI to loot some fuel" you think "♥♥♥♥, I gotta kill 50 zombies to get there. I think I'll play 7d2d instead."
The encounter system that's been discussed sounds like a much better way to handle it.

I can understand your reasoning. I’ve never played State of Decay, but it sounds like I’d enjoy it. I will say that I’m not implying that every single POI would need to have a ton of zombies around them, but I think they could be utilizing the horde mechanic better than just some passing through.

It would be hilarious to lead some zombies in the direction of a buddies base or used as a distraction in PVP! :smile-new:

Loc

 

[Laz Man]

@ MM, I found where you guys got your farm plot idea....lol

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?133199-7-Days-of-the-Past&p=1057586&viewfull=1#post1057586

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I can't decide what I personally think is better in regards to zombie counts in the world.

On one side, a ton of zombies would be impressive and a lot of fun. On the other side, if it was like that all the time, there would be no surprises and being surprised is fun too.

I imagine trying to loot a POI with a ton of zombies outside being a challenge, which is good. It might take all day.

However, when I go home and come back the next day, I wouldn't want to do the same thing all over again just to hit the POI next door.

That would get old real fast.

I would probably do something like a reversed heat map for cities. I'll just call it a cool map for easier reference. At first a ton of zombies can spawn in city chunks because the cool map is high. The more you kill in a chunk, the lower the cool map goes. If you happen to come back the next day, those chunks probably won't trigger spawns. After a couple, maybe a few would. If you haven't come back in over a week, the cool map would be at max again and large groups spawn in those city chunks again.

I am pretty sure the encounter system will solve a lot of this, but I can't help but think that it will feel gamey.

For example, the digging quests. The zombies that show up the instant you empty the chest is a cool idea... clever the first time, not so much after that. It's actually funny to try to grab it and look around to watch them pop in. The yellow paper challenge notes that bring you to some location in the wild where you can watch zombies pop in seems even gamier. I don't get a good feeling playing the game during these moments.

 

[Jedo]

I don't suppose any of you people complaining about 7dtd becoming a looter/shooter are the same people asking for more zombies. If so, the irony would be staggering.

I still get wandering hordes that will barge into a T4-5 POI that I'm clearing. Unfortunately, they take the easily navigated path which I made so that I could run back to my dump container. Surprise!!

 

[SickPuppy]

I think you need to be careful what you wish for. Sure a ton of zombies outside a POI sounds fun. The first 10 times that is. State of Decay 2 has a ton of zombies everywhere, all the time. It's fun til it's not. It starts to get tedious and instead of thinking "oh I need to run to that POI to loot some fuel" you think "♥♥♥♥, I gotta kill 50 zombies to get there. I think I'll play 7d2d instead."
The encounter system that's been discussed sounds like a much better way to handle it.

Yup I'd much rather have a random encounter to mix things up and make the world feel alive than popping the same zombies over and over. For more challenge I'd suggest always nightmare run, each encounter can be dangerous, having 1 biker zombie bolting at u already gives me the s***'s.

I will stick to my guns that the encounter system will do everything its meant to, which is sell the player into feeling like the world is teaming with zombies, without spawning guys that just sit there and eat cpu waiting for a player to stumble across them and count against maxalive. Your method (our old method) is careless and wasteful, we're doing something elegant we can control, and keep people at 60fps at all times. ONce the player leaves it despawns and we can send someone else an encounter. We can do mini blood moons in the near future, wandering traders, bandit patrols, wandering hordes, a few zombies eating a corpse, a damsel in distress, all game staged for the person we plan it for.

Best foreplay I've ever had, literally shouted "Yes, oh yes please, when is it coming!?!"

People on train thought I was watching porn.

 

[wolfbain5]

I don't suppose any of you people complaining about 7dtd becoming a looter/shooter are the same people asking for more zombies. If so, the irony would be staggering.
I still get wandering hordes that will barge into a T4-5 POI that I'm clearing. Unfortunately, they take the easily navigated path which I made so that I could run back to my dump container. Surprise!!

I am a builder explorer, I want a few more zombies. not tons. well, 100 spread all over town isnt alot. the once a day wandering horde that you are dealing with. easily dealt with. I just feel that the challenge of this lovely game is gone, or going. the only real challenge is the horde night and t5 quests.

used to be back around a11 a12, that you cleared an area and 2-3 days later, zeds would repop. it allowed for looting and clearing poi's after you cleared the town. it was wonderful, wasteland cities were a horror. loved sneaking in to get the good lootz.

MM says that things arent broken up by city town, but that ant be else poi placement would be off, after all, certain poi's only show up in town