PC About the food system

[Damocles]

Whatever funny effects the game assign to food recipes, it will not matter in the long run. The player will after some time have collected more than enough items to have no shortage of it. -> item-inflation, as with many other resources.

With foodspoilage, collecting food would be at least an ongoing activity. It also would give more reasons to properly build and maintain a diversified farm. Or make dedicated hunting a recurring activity in the players daily/weekly routine.

The player could choose to make lower quality food that spoils slowly (and not have to invest much time into farming/hunting), or higher quality (buffs) food, that spoils faster.

 

[RestInPieces]

Whatever funny effects the game assign to food recipes, it will not matter in the long run. The player will after some time have collected more than enough items to have no shortage of it. -> item-inflation, as with many other resources.
With foodspoilage, collecting food would be at least an ongoing activity. It also would give more reasons to properly build and maintain a diversified farm. Or make dedicated hunting a recurring activity in the players daily/weekly routine.

The player could choose to make lower quality food that spoils slowly (and not have to invest much time into farming/hunting), or higher quality (buffs) food, that spoils faster.

Why waste time on silly ideas like eating rabbit makes you move faster? It makes the game more difficult to balance, its just silly, adds nothing to the game itself other than annoyance. Meat is meat, it doesn't have different effects.

Pretty much these two posts.

-Spoilage is just a must if hunger is ever going to be meaningful in the long term.

-There's no reason to add magic effects to it.

 

[Roland]

Pretty much these two posts.-Spoilage is just a must if hunger is ever going to be meaningful in the long term.

-There's no reason to add magic effects to it.

Agreed on spoilage but not on the second point. Call it magic or call it beneficial nutrition food should have a variety of effects and they shouldn't be permanent so in essence...yes they should be essentially potions. Here's the reasons:

It's fun for some. (I think it is fun)

It adds differentiation. When the only benefits are health gain and fullness gain then you get the one best food that everybody always cooks because for the ease, cost, and benefit it is simply the best. Hence most buy 1 level of cooking and make bacon and eggs forever. But if cooking cornbread gives some fulness and health AND you can dig with less stamina loss for a short time after eating it (carbs not magic!) then just maybe you will cook up some cornbread in addition to bacon and eggs.

Some of you say you hate lots of things that give temporary benefits but not everyone hates that and food that can be prepared and ingested multiple times can't really give permanent effects-- they would have to be temporary. I'm realistic enough to call it what it is. Yes, its potion making. However, depending on the presentation it doesn't have to be magical. It can have basis in nutrition and real world benefits even if it ends up being exagerated somewhat over actual real world results.

 

[RipClaw]

If spoilage becomes part of the game it should have more content than just a lack of food. For example, cornbread may occasionally become moldy bread that can be used to craft antibiotica.

Rotted remains could generally be processed into compost in order to increase the yield in the garden or to allow the plants to grow faster.

 

[RestInPieces]

Agreed on spoilage but not on the second point. Call it magic or call it beneficial nutrition food should have a variety of effects and they shouldn't be permanent so in essence...yes they should be essentially potions. Here's the reasons:
It's fun for some. (I think it is fun)

It adds differentiation. When the only benefits are health gain and fullness gain then you get the one best food that everybody always cooks because for the ease, cost, and benefit it is simply the best. Hence most buy 1 level of cooking and make bacon and eggs forever. But if cooking cornbread gives some fulness and health AND you can dig with less stamina loss for a short time after eating it (carbs not magic!) then just maybe you will cook up some cornbread in addition to bacon and eggs.

Some of you say you hate lots of things that give temporary benefits but not everyone hates that and food that can be prepared and ingested multiple times can't really give permanent effects-- they would have to be temporary. I'm realistic enough to call it what it is. Yes, its potion making. However, depending on the presentation it doesn't have to be magical. It can have basis in nutrition and real world benefits even if it ends up being exagerated somewhat over actual real world results.

It's not that I wouldn't like differentiation of food and more than a few recipes being useful. That would be great. But you described it perfectly - doing it this way, would feel like having potions. And imagine how players will carry potions for different situations every time in their inventory, not paying much attention to whether they are hungry or not, but frantically chugging them according to the actions they are making. If bonuses are strong enough, the availability of food can even determine the actions they will be doing in some situations.

The reason most people don't bother to take more perks than M.Chef lvl 1 in the first place, is because of its cost/effectiveness. Cost or availability is AAA - even at 25% loot, you find enough eggs on the ground (nest every 3m) to feed more than one person and meat is not an issue most of the time - as long as you find an animal you will get plenty of it. Not much of a reason for someone to invest at producing food to make recipes. If we had spoilage in the game right now and everything was balanced around it, things would be drastically different. Eggs spoiling fast for example, would make bacon and eggs too time consuming, as you would have to continuously gather fresh eggs.

As for long-term effects, a variety of meals is more akin to proper nutrition:

They could add a hidden counter that will be increasing with high quality food, diminishing with time, adding a buff every time the hidden counter exceeds a threshold with a minimum duration. Like a mini-wellness "well fed" effect which can appear with weeks of highQ nutrition and can be sustained permanently. The counter could also increase ONLY when the player eats a variety of nutrients (food consumed should be different than the last one or two meals). Obviously, there have to be ways for the player to not be able to abuse the counter. Players will intrinsically know that if they want to be "well-fed", they will keep having to eat different high quality meals each day for some time, without having to track anything other than "what they ate yesterday" (even if they don't remember or track that, as long as their meal is HQ, the counter can remain stable instead of diminishing, making the counter a sure thing eventually, with HQ, sometimes varied, nutrition).

 

[skullpoker]

Eat canned food: Possible food poison in spite of no differentiation between canned/collapsed canned food...

Eat freshly cooked meat: same no matter what kind

Eat ♥♥♥♥: change your name to Roland and make your opinion moot.

 

[Roland]

It's not that I wouldn't like differentiation of food and more than a few recipes being useful. That would be great. But you described it perfectly - doing it this way, would feel like having potions. And imagine how players will carry potions for different situations every time in their inventory, not paying much attention to whether they are hungry or not, but frantically chugging them according to the actions they are making. If bonuses are strong enough, the availability of food can even determine the actions they will be doing in some situations.
The reason most people don't bother to take more perks than M.Chef lvl 1 in the first place, is because of its cost/effectiveness. Cost or availability is AAA - even at 25% loot, you find enough eggs on the ground (nest every 3m) to feed more than one person and meat is not an issue most of the time - as long as you find an animal you will get plenty of it. Not much of a reason for someone to invest at producing food to make recipes. If we had spoilage in the game right now and everything was balanced around it, things would be drastically different. Eggs spoiling fast for example, would make bacon and eggs too time consuming, as you would have to continuously gather fresh eggs.

As for long-term effects, a variety of meals is more akin to proper nutrition:

They could add a hidden counter that will be increasing with high quality food, diminishing with time, adding a buff every time the hidden counter exceeds a threshold with a minimum duration. Like a mini-wellness "well fed" effect which can appear with weeks of highQ nutrition and can be sustained permanently. The counter could also increase ONLY when the player eats a variety of nutrients (food consumed should be different than the last one or two meals). Obviously, there have to be ways for the player to not be able to abuse the counter. Players will intrinsically know that if they want to be "well-fed", they will keep having to eat different high quality meals each day for some time, without having to track anything other than "what they ate yesterday" (even if they don't remember or track that, as long as their meal is HQ, the counter can remain stable instead of diminishing, making the counter a sure thing eventually, with HQ, sometimes varied, nutrition).

I’m on board for general nutrition and wellness via eating a variety of good foods. I just also think food potions can be done in a way that is fun as well. So what if people fill their inventory slots to have the right food ready for the right situation? That’s their choice.

Food spoilage

Long term wellness through the food pyramid.

Short term potion effects from different meals.

Yes to all three.

 

[ktr]

Food Spoilage is a mixed bag for me. I can see the appeal in a survival game. It also seems like a micro-management mini game in the same spirit as gun parts. I never consider cleaning out my fridge and deciding what needs to be cooked and eaten now or its going to go bad a good time and I don't think I'd like it any better in a game.

Especially, in multiplayer. I'd give it a shot, but the forecast for enjoying it is nebulous.

Food, though is prevalent in SP and not particularly difficult (though it can be more challenging) in MP. Would lowering the prevalence of food instead of adding spoilage address the issue?

 

[Roland]

. I never consider cleaning out my fridge...

Exactly. Thanks to your fridge you don’t have to and that would be the same in the game. A food spoilage feature usually includes food preservation solutions as well so that once you progress to the tech you no longer have to worry about it.

 

[Damocles]

A potential implementation problem: Food spoilage: item-stacking.

As a per-item food spoilage would require using a separate slot for each food-item, the game could simplify it, and use the average "lasting-timer" when combining food of the same type into the stack.

So if one egg has 50/100 time-units left, and the other egg 30/100, then the stacked eggs after combining have each 40/100 time units left.

This is not realistic, but would allow stacking items with different remaining spoilage times.

---

If the food spoils at lets say 1 unit per minute, then putting it into a cooler-box would make it loose only 0.25 units per minute, in a powered fridge even less.

It would loose nothing when canned or frozen, but then loose certain benefits.

The player is only allowed to eat a certain amount of feed when hungry, so eating lower quality food would compeete with higher quality food.

 

[Khulkhuum]

I think Ark done a pretty decent job for food spoilage.

You can stack the same types of food like meat, berries, cooked food, etc. but when the timer hits one item from the stack changes into spoiled. This should go in pair with what Damocles said, adding new items to the stack would add or decrease based on averages of both stacks put together. Sure we could argue that after the timer hits 0 the whole stack should go rotten, not only a single item, but the same could be said about how fast a stack of meat would be inedible.

 

[RipClaw]

I think Ark done a pretty decent job for food spoilage.

In Ark spoilage is even a desirable property since you need the spoiled meat for the manufacture of narcotics.

I'd wish for the same for 7 Days to die. Food shouldn't just spoil so you have to throw it away but you should be able to use it to make other things. That would give the whole thing more meaning.

 

[Auner]

In Ark spoilage is even a desirable property since you need the spoiled meat for the manufacture of narcotics.I'd wish for the same for 7 Days to die. Food shouldn't just spoil so you have to throw it away but you should be able to use it to make other things. That would give the whole thing more meaning.

Agreed! IF spoilage was added, food should spoil “into” something and not just disappear. Whether it’s Rotten Flesh, Moldy Bread, or something new like Rotten Mush (Compost).

I think Ark’s system would be easy to code into 7DtD (when the timer runs out, you lose one item from the stack - easy). This doesn’t make it stupidly annoying, but something to consider, and I’d expect different foods to last different amounts of time. Very complicated foods with salts or other preservatives, or simple foods like twinkies, would last longer than raw meats or basic cooked meat. This would take some appeal from Bacon & Eggs as the only thing to make. It would also encourage using the meat when you get it, and not stockpiling 500 Raw Meat until you finally find a damn grill.

 

[RestInPieces]

Spoilage alone can make 1/2 of the food perks useful again. It would give value to food gathering/production activities and would be one of the best incentives to have electricity as the QOL upgrade will be great. Spoilage is our Lord and Savior! Don't want to see M60s in the diary, want to see something meaningful for the gameplay :'(

It also seems like a micro-management mini game in the same spirit as gun parts. I never consider cleaning out my fridge and deciding what needs to be cooked and eaten now or its going to go bad a good time and I don't think I'd like it any better in a game.

True, but intuitive UI, like a quick-sort, a small bar, etc, can minimize that micromanagement. Imo food spoilage will offer so much to the game that it will be ten times worth it.

So what if people fill their inventory slots to have the right food ready for the right situation? That’s their choice.

Because devs must prevent players from annoying themselves with extra item management for a few lousy (but optimal) buffs

If the food spoils at lets say 1 unit per minute, then putting it into a cooler-box would make it loose only 0.25 units per minute, in a powered fridge even less.

Imo cooler boxes shouldn't prevent spoilage. One of the best parts of spoilage, is giving electricity a big QOL upgrade. Would be much less if something such as cooler boxes mitigated spoilage. I know it does make sense for cooler boxes to do that but...

It would loose nothing when canned

Yeah, canned food and can recipes will have a reason for existence.

I think Ark done a pretty decent job for food spoilage.

Yeah, don't think stacking is an issue, many games with spoilage handle it well.

In Ark spoilage is even a desirable property since you need the spoiled meat for the manufacture of narcotics.I'd wish for the same for 7 Days to die. Food shouldn't just spoil so you have to throw it away but you should be able to use it to make other things. That would give the whole thing more meaning.

Agree that spoiled food could be used at something - it shouldn't be too valuable though because spoiled food will be plentiful.

It would also encourage using the meat when you get it, and not stockpiling 500 Raw Meat until you finally find a damn grill.

Yep! Same with eggs and everything else. The more recipes the more versatile someone will be.

 

[Khulkhuum]

Not only you would be able to reinvent the wheel (so to speak) concerning the foods themselves, but also many appliances.

Fridges and coolers could be far more functional and have a more advanced UI. The current temperature - slowly changing when it persists without electricity or the cooling agent slowly declining (like snow, ice, etc., but can be even a new item) - which would show if electricity was plugged, etc.

Additionally, food would not spoil (or do it slower) when you travel through snow biome (general temperature affecting spoilage). I think the main problem here would be a framework to check all of the containers in the players chunk (or upon opening a container) to see if anything spoiled.

 

[eXSe]

I’m on board for general nutrition and wellness via eating a variety of good foods. I just also think food potions can be done in a way that is fun as well. So what if people fill their inventory slots to have the right food ready for the right situation? That’s their choice.
Food spoilage

Long term wellness through the food pyramid.

Short term potion effects from different meals.

Yes to all three.

I'd be down with that

 

[Roland]

Because devs must prevent players from annoying themselves with extra item management for a few lousy (but optimal) buffs

I'd believe you were being facetious if I wasn't so well read in your posts. We just will always disagree on the level of puppet mastery the devs should employ to guide players into doing (or not doing) certain things that may lead them to possibly not having fun because of the choices those players made that were possible but not mandatory because the devs kept things open ended.

Imo cooler boxes shouldn't prevent spoilage.

Agreed. But he didn't say prevent it he said reduce it and I think using a cooler as early game way to mitigate spoilage a bit is fine. Salt could also be used as something to extend the life of meat but not prevent spoilage altogether.

One of the best parts of spoilage, is giving electricity a big QOL upgrade. Would be much less if something such as cooler boxes mitigated spoilage. I know it does make sense for cooler boxes to do that but...

....but nothing. Cooler boxes should be able to help to a degree that raises the QOL a little from having no preservation. Playing with zero preservation techniques from the start until electricity would be too long a time to suffer and even if intermediate solutions like coolers and salt were used they wouldn't diminish the awesome tech of a fridge connected to electricity. I'd even say that if someone wanted to store their stuff in regular crates in the snow biome, that should almost be on par with an electric fridge so that there is that alternative for those who don't want to get into the electricity part of the game.

 

[HungryZombie]

I'd believe you were being facetious if I wasn't so well read in your posts. We just will always disagree on the level of puppet mastery the devs should employ to guide players into doing (or not doing) certain things that may lead them to possibly not having fun because of the choices those players made that were possible but not mandatory because the devs kept things open ended.



Agreed. But he didn't say prevent it he said reduce it and I think using a cooler as early game way to mitigate spoilage a bit is fine. Salt could also be used as something to extend the life of meat but not prevent spoilage altogether.

....but nothing. Cooler boxes should be able to help to a degree that raises the QOL a little from having no preservation. Playing with zero preservation techniques from the start until electricity would be too long a time to suffer and even if intermediate solutions like coolers and salt were used they wouldn't diminish the awesome tech of a fridge connected to electricity. I'd even say that if someone wanted to store their stuff in regular crates in the snow biome, that should almost be on par with an electric fridge so that there is that alternative for those who don't want to get into the electricity part of the game.

That's pretty interesting if they could pull off the crate in the snow thing. Would make a Snow Biome fort a cool option.

 

[RipClaw]

Additionally, food would not spoil (or do it slower) when you travel through snow biome (general temperature affecting spoilage). I think the main problem here would be a framework to check all of the containers in the players chunk (or upon opening a container) to see if anything spoiled.

I immediately think of Siberia and how there in storage compartments in the ground food are stored because the permafrost ground acts like a refrigerator.

Or you could use an icebox as a model. These were not electrically operated but an ice block cooled the food.

 

[Damocles]

There could be some "pre powered fridge" options:

-items stashed in common storage-chest (shade) spoil a bit slower than when carried around.

-items stored in a storage chest in the snow biome (will spoil slower) -> would give the player a reason to travel to a nearby snow biome

-any cooked meats/eggs spoil slower than raw products

-makeshift cooler (cooler-box + mixing salt and water)

-pickling vegetables (glass, + maybe salt or vinegar)

-preserving cooked meat in a glass jar or can (spoil slow, but are a low quality food)

-salting meat

-smoking meat / drying meat

The ultimate goal for the player would be to have a powered fridge, that can either cool (high quality foods) or freeze (lower quality foods / no spoilage). And maintaining a larger farm - where the best foods would require vegetables from the farm, but also fresh meat from hunting.

The would be then 3 main strategies:

-make everlasting canned/preserved food, without spoilage (no perks) -> convenient choice for longer trips

-make food fresh "on the run" by hunting/gathering (spoils fast, good perks)

-make the the best food by doing hunting trips, cooling the meats, picking fresh vegetables from the farm, and cooking meals on a proper stove (spoil slow in the fridge, best perks, but spoiling fast when travelling) -> best choice when staying in the base