PC About Double clearing POIs and how to fix it

[Roland]

Ok, so you're saying that TFP never really listented to the feedback (and never really made a single poll here in the forums either and I never really participated in the said polls) and so their decision to remove LBD mechanic was not affected by any part of the player base who thoroughly cried (I'm sorry, discussed) the matter here in the forum to no end saying how much they hate it when they see some other players stay at their base spending their precious time and resources on spam crafting just to level up.

Ok, also an opinion, but it seems like we will have to agree to disagree as usual...

TFP never made a single official poll regarding LBD. Forum users made polls galore, but not TFP. Most of the outrage came after A17 was released and people played with LBD completely phased out. That is also when most of the polls made by users appeared. After. During the 1.5 years during the development of A17 there was not much said about it other than lingering gripes about crafting xp being finally completely removed when A16 released. Interestingly enough there is crafting xp once again in the game.

TFP does listen to the players but listening and obeying are two different things. They listen they discuss amongts themselves and then when they reject, there are a lot of players who just assume TFP never listened (Because if they truly listened, how could they POSSIBLY choose differently than my opinion). 

I agree with you that there are a segment of players who incessantly talk about how much they hate the tactics, actions, strategies, and exploits other players use. I disagree with you that those people have any kind of power at all to enact their wishes. So what if someone hates the way I play the game and posts it here? Unless it is Madmole or Gazz or faatal AND they also have the rest of the team on their side it won't make any difference.

You are assigning way too much power to people who have none.

Do we usually disagree on everything?

 

[Kalen]

Because if they truly listened, how could they POSSIBLY choose differently than my opinion

I know, right?   How could they?!  

 

[Solomon]

1. Take the quest at the trader : At that very same instant, the POI resets. Period. 

How about a cleaner alternative solution?

Add somekind of tracker to the player what marks where they were in the last 2 days, which POI's they were in and how long.

Any POI what had a player in it for more than lets say... 5 seconds is marked as quest unavaible. When you connect to the trader two options could happen:

1. "Ohh you already been there, get me the package hidden there (dig hidden) and you'll be rewarded." This one feels organic to the situation as you cleared the place but didnt tried to dig up the cellar for hidden stuff.
   
2. Simply they dont give you a quest in the buildings you were in during that time period.
   

 

[mr.devolver]

TFP never made a single official poll regarding LBD. Forum users made polls galore, but not TFP. Most of the outrage came after A17 was released and people played with LBD completely phased out. That is also when most of the polls made by users appeared. After. During the 1.5 years during the development of A17 there was not much said about it other than lingering gripes about crafting xp being finally completely removed when A16 released. Interestingly enough there is crafting xp once again in the game.

TFP does listen to the players but listening and obeying are two different things. They listen they discuss amongts themselves and then when they reject, there are a lot of players who just assume TFP never listened (Because if they truly listened, how could they POSSIBLY choose differently than my opinion). 

I agree with you that there are a segment of players who incessantly talk about how much they hate the tactics, actions, strategies, and exploits other players use. I disagree with you that those people have any kind of power at all to enact their wishes. So what if someone hates the way I play the game and posts it here? Unless it is Madmole or Gazz or faatal AND they also have the rest of the team on their side it won't make any difference.

You are assigning way too much power to people who have none.

Do we usually disagree on everything?

In your previous post, you made it sound like TFP never listened to the players at all and always strictly followed their own vision regardless of what players think and that's simply not true, because they made couple of polls in the past and what a different purpose would these polls have if it wasn't to get some feedback from the players regarding some planned changes, basically to figure out which way would be the most accepted middle ground for everyone? If you cannot recall any polls where the players feedback actually mattered, I can give you an example. They did one when there was a huge backlash for the changes they introduced in Alpha 17 that basically removed diversity in the progression of the players and forced everyone to follow one linear route towards particular perks and skills, ie. removal of freedom of choice. Most people did not like that and it was enough of a reason for them to listen to the players and revert the change, so why should I believe that if there's enough public outcry, they won't listen to it again, even in a situation like this one?

And yes, most of the time we do seem to disagree, at least that's my perception of it. Very rarely I had to agree with you and just for the record, I had no problem with agreeing with you when I felt like we have similar views, but it's ok if we disagree. I guess as a moderator, you must stick with a certain official line and you're doing it well, but consequentially our views won't always be the same...

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I'm not going to run through my idea again on how POI resetting (and even loot resetting) can be done in a way that makes sense. 
I'll just say that I have hope that the issue will be looked at again after bandits are added to the game.
I do see this as a problem. It's something you would expect from an NES-level game, but in modern times, it's just screaming poor design.

 

[Blake_]

How about a cleaner alternative solution?

Add somekind of tracker to the player what marks where they were in the last 2 days, which POI's they were in and how long.

Any POI what had a player in it for more than lets say... 5 seconds is marked as quest unavaible. When you connect to the trader two options could happen:

1. "Ohh you already been there, get me the package hidden there (dig hidden) and you'll be rewarded." This one feels organic to the situation as you cleared the place but didnt tried to dig up the cellar for hidden stuff.
   
2. Simply they dont give you a quest in the buildings you were in during that time period.
   

While I like that solution very much, that "tracker" that you are talking about could be tricky to do.  You need to do a check and the cheapest way is checking when opening the trader menu. So it COULD work and it's a good idea.

Long story short : that suggestion improves mine to a point in which the reset at any point is obsolete. 

But remember: no reset results in a barren empty world after a while. It might be 100 hours or 200. But if 8 or 16 guys are milking the world, it's gonna go dry fast.

 

[DaChibii]

This might be a question that one of the CM can answer, but...

Does TFP have any plans for repeatable POIs (outside or in addition to the current Quest mechanic)? Like could the Duke or White River faction have preset drop locations for trade caravans that reset weekly (or on a Airdrop timer) that players could use as a repeatable quest if they choose to do so? Then players would have a diversity of POIs (other than layout diversity) to choose from: repeatable Quest POIs, non-repeatable non-Quest POIs, and repeatable non-Quest POIs. I guess paper non-Trader Quests/Challenges sort of fit this role, but often I find those more of an achievement/challenge than a source of resources (like loot or XP).

Ooooooo... You could even work this using the animals. So you could make a simple Bear cave POI with Bear spawns that resets with a timer (seperate, airdrop, or loot respawn timer). And it would feel sort of realistic in that just a new bear taking over the past bears space. Or maybe a small valley grove with Deer spawns. Mostly this is allow for players that don't want to explore for prey an option to get reliable animal resources, but at a cost of a being on a schedule. Opposed to the current RNG freedom option. I'm not advocating for the removal of the current system, but just an add-on to flesh out the wilderness and increase the options available.

 

[Scyris]

I think the issue is less whether TFP would like to prevent double looting and more whether TFP thinks its worth the effort and the risk at this stage of development. TFP haven't finalized how loot rooms will work. They've talked about various ways to make it harder to cheese loot, e.g., locked doors requiring key cards. If TFP implements a solid way to discourage loot cheesing any effort spent on preventing double looting could be wasted time better spent elsewhere. For now, players have agency to decide whether they will double loot or cheese loot rooms. In my opinion, that's sufficient for now. 

Locked anything is pointless unless you make all the blocks around it invincible also. If u have a locked door thats surrounded by breakable concrete blocks, people will just bust the blocks to get at the loot and ignore the door entirely. Though this causes a double-edged sword thing here, because a player could also hide in that room with its invincible blocks to hide from horde night, which as you can tell TFP doesn't like people having mechancs to avoid horde night.

Me? I just don't purposfully double loot on quest, if its a unlooted poi, I  just go there do the quest, if its one I looted before I had a quest for it, oh well.

 

[meganoth]

This might be a question that one of the CM can answer, but...

Does TFP have any plans for repeatable POIs (outside or in addition to the current Quest mechanic)? Like could the Duke or White River faction have preset drop locations for trade caravans that reset weekly (or on a Airdrop timer) that players could use as a repeatable quest if they choose to do so? Then players would have a diversity of POIs (other than layout diversity) to choose from: repeatable Quest POIs, non-repeatable non-Quest POIs, and repeatable non-Quest POIs. I guess paper non-Trader Quests/Challenges sort of fit this role, but often I find those more of an achievement/challenge than a source of resources (like loot or XP).

Ooooooo... You could even work this using the animals. So you could make a simple Bear cave POI with Bear spawns that resets with a timer (seperate, airdrop, or loot respawn timer). And it would feel sort of realistic in that just a new bear taking over the past bears space. Or maybe a small valley grove with Deer spawns. Mostly this is allow for players that don't want to explore for prey an option to get reliable animal resources, but at a cost of a being on a schedule. Opposed to the current RNG freedom option. I'm not advocating for the removal of the current system, but just an add-on to flesh out the wilderness and increase the options available.

If you want a reliable animal source there is an animal tracker perk.

Locked anything is pointless unless you make all the blocks around it invincible also. If u have a locked door thats surrounded by breakable concrete blocks, people will just bust the blocks to get at the loot and ignore the door entirely. Though this causes a double-edged sword thing here, because a player could also hide in that room with its invincible blocks to hide from horde night, which as you can tell TFP doesn't like people having mechancs to avoid horde night.

Me? I just don't purposfully double loot on quest, if its a unlooted poi, I  just go there do the quest, if its one I looted before I had a quest for it, oh well.

There won't be invincible blocks. If the blocks have 8000 HPs you still are better off finding the key than breaking the wall.

 

[th3s0n1c]

That is a false equivalency, IMO.   Knowing the layout of a POI, while a bit helpful, doesn't really save you much time or effort.   The POI itself already tells you the correct path to take.   About the only thing you gain is the location of any traps that might be present.  A benefit, but certainly not "28 days" worth of benefit.

Knowing all the layout, where all the plugs are, where all the doors lead to, where the loot room is, where there's a secret room/stash, where the zombies spawn, location of traps.. Will save you at least half the time spent if you're entering a place for the first time, finding your way and figuring out the hidden stuff.  Even with lights showing the way, quite often people will miss it in a POI or two. (Like i've lost track of how many times I've seen people lost because they couldnt figure out that you're supposed to jump on top of the vending machine in the cafeteria area on the shamway factory)

But if the problem lies on the "proportion of [time saved]" in my example.. fine.. lets cut it down to 15 days of work. That's still half the original time you spent learning the correct way to achieve your goal. Which will net you double the loot + trader reward.  And that, in itself, already shows how "just looting the house next door" is not the same as doubling one.

Soooo, we should probably ban exploring the POIs entirely to prevent the players from learning how to clear them before they do the quests, riiiiiiigggghhhhhhttttt.....

riiiiiiigggghhhhhhttttt..... before they start a given quest on that one POI, yes.

And its not about taking away freedom from other players' choice on how to play the game. Imo this mechanic is something that came out wrong, in the first place. And the only reason why we're arguing over it, is because it exists when (once again: imo) it shouldnt. When TFP came up with the "quest reset POI' mechanic, I believe they werent accounting for people doing a double run on it. Probably just thinking of renewing POIs already looted so the quests could take place there. Just like with most things they "fix" in the game because they didnt think it would act the way players are now using it in an exploitive way (eg: steep blocks, hatch elevators, maze bases, etc).

Hence why I agree with OP's idea of resetting the POI upon accepting the quest back in the trader screen.

I'm trying to keep "realism" and "immersion breaking" out of the discussion, but resetting a POI that you just cleared - on intention of getting double the loot - is not a choice on how to play the game.. its a choice over abusing a mechanic - and those are very different things.

 

[Roland]

If the blocks have 8000 HPs you still are better off finding the key than breaking the wall.

If the blocks have 80000 HPs there will still be people who insist on breaking them with a Q1 stone axe and will sit there for the three days it takes to do it and then complain here on the forum that TFP is forcing them to spend 3 days breaking into a locked reward box with no time to prepare for the next blood moon and rewards that are just not worth it....

 

[Blake_]

If the blocks have 80000 HPs there will still be people who insist on breaking them with a Q1 stone axe and will sit there for the three days it takes to do it and then complain here on the forum that TFP is forcing them to spend 3 days breaking into a locked reward box with no time to prepare for the next blood moon and rewards that are just not worth it....

Yet... gently hugging the block for hours would rise our emotional intelligence skill. Who would be so insensitive as to take that away from us ? 

 

[Roland]

In your previous post, you made it sound like TFP never listened to the players at all and always strictly followed their own vision regardless of what players think and that's simply not true

Sorry...it's a fine line. TFP always listens to the players and they always strictly follow their own vision. They definitely do walk back a bit from certain balance decisions based upon feedback they get. Like the old death penalty timer on reduced stats? Started at 60 but based on player feedback they reduced it down and eventually went another way. But for the most part they have their plan and they stick to it.

because they made couple of polls in the past and what a different purpose would these polls have if it wasn't to get some feedback from the players regarding some planned changes, basically to figure out which way would be the most accepted middle ground for everyone? If you cannot recall any polls where the players feedback actually mattered, I can give you an example. They did one when there was a huge backlash for the changes they introduced in Alpha 17 that basically removed diversity in the progression of the players and forced everyone to follow one linear route towards particular perks and skills, ie. removal of freedom of choice. Most people did not like that and it was enough of a reason for them to listen to the players and revert the change, so why should I believe that if there's enough public outcry, they won't listen to it again, even in a situation like this one?

You're talking about level gates? I don't remember the poll. Like I said, they heard the player outcry and discussed it as a team and came to a decision that aligned with those who were upset in that case. But there were also people who were for level gates at the time. How do they feel? That TFP never listens to anyone but a faction of loud complainers....? I'm glad too that level gates were ditched but now look at LBD which can arguably be said to be the loudest and longest disagreement with TFP by members of the community this game has ever had. Unfortunately for them, their desires were not on the side that TFP wanted to uphold and TFP did not cave to it and won't. And it was not (as you painted it) because a small group of forum users who hate how others play convinced them to change. In the case of LBD, even if there was a resurgence of public outcry over it, they still would not change back to it and most people get it and have finally let it go. Some never will.

And yes, most of the time we do seem to disagree, at least that's my perception of it. Very rarely I had to agree with you and just for the record, I had no problem with agreeing with you when I felt like we have similar views, but it's ok if we disagree. I guess as a moderator, you must stick with a certain official line and you're doing it well, but consequentially our views won't always be the same...

I haven't kept track. Interesting.

There are no company lines or talking points. I don't agree with everything and have been vocal about where I see things differently. The difference is that once I know a decision is final I respect it and move on whereas others continue to harp and harp and harp pointlessly on issues that are dead and buried and over with. Life is too short to keep grinding an axe that serves no purpose.

 

[meganoth]

If the blocks have 80000 HPs there will still be people who insist on breaking them with a Q1 stone axe and will sit there for the three days it takes to do it and then complain here on the forum that TFP is forcing them to spend 3 days breaking into a locked reward box with no time to prepare for the next blood moon and rewards that are just not worth it....

Ok, you convinced me. They must make them with 80000 HPs.

 

[Kalen]

Knowing all the layout, where all the plugs are, where all the doors lead to, where the loot room is, where there's a secret room/stash, where the zombies spawn, location of traps.. Will save you at least half the time spent if you're entering a place for the first time, finding your way and figuring out the hidden stuff.

Sorry, that is not my experience.  First of all, the zombies don't necessarily spawn in the same place.  Secondly, I've almost never had a problem following the clues that guide you through the POI.  I maintain the only advantage to doing the POI twice is seeing where there are traps.... and even that is debatable as to how much of a benefit it is.   

So either I'm better at the game than I think and have little trouble going through the first time.... or I'm much worse than I think and just can't take advantage of the knowledge I gained when I go through the second time.   Either way, personally, I find very little difference in time or effort doing a POI twice in a row.

 

[Kahrston]

From everything I've seen there are three basic camps on here. One group that likes to double-loot POI's, one group that doesn't, and another group that doesn't really care one way or the other.

Why don't we just let those that want to double-loot do it if they want. Those that don't want to double-loot don't have to do so. And third group will just decide what they want to do that time like they're currently doing anyway.

Why do some people want to change the way other people get enjoyment from the game? It's like someone saying that they don't like to use mods so no one else should be allowed to use them. Let people play the way they want to if that's the way they enjoy it. It takes nothing away from anyone else's enjoyment. If you don't like playing with them, ban them from the server, password it, etc... so they can't play with you.

Just my two cents...

 

[DaChibii]

If you want a reliable animal source there is an animal tracker perk.

I'm aware of that. That was just addendum to the original idea of repeatable POIs based on a timer (similar to how Air Drops function) but POI as a challenge/puzzle instead of just loot.

I was suggesting an alternative option in addition to Animal Tracker that provides the same end goal but a different path to it, so other playstyles can enjoy instead of catering to just one.

 

[th3s0n1c]

From everything I've seen there are three basic camps on here. One group that likes to double-loot POI's, one group that doesn't, and another group that doesn't really care one way or the other.

Why don't we just let those that want to double-loot do it if they want. Those that don't want to double-loot don't have to do so. And third group will just decide what they want to do that time like they're currently doing anyway.

Why do some people want to change the way other people get enjoyment from the game? It's like someone saying that they don't like to use mods so no one else should be allowed to use them. Let people play the way they want to if that's the way they enjoy it. It takes nothing away from anyone else's enjoyment. If you don't like playing with them, ban them from the server, password it, etc... so they can't play with you.

Just my two cents...

Your 2 cents add LITERALLY nothing to the conversation. Everytime there's a discussion (a civilized one, btw) going on, two opposing sides presenting their arguments, there's a third side that doesnt care and some dude that shows up (thinking he's some sort of mediator) saying "why dont each side just mind their business and stop telling how each other should play?" - and you're not even the first person to bring this point in this thread.

We are not discussing which type of base is better.. or if zombies should be able to run or not. This isnt about game settings that actually decide how people play. I'll repeat:

Tts not about taking away freedom from other players' choice on how to play the game. Imo this mechanic is something that came out wrong, in the first place. And the only reason why we're arguing over it, is because it exists when (once again: imo) it shouldnt. When TFP came up with the "quest reset POI' mechanic, I believe they werent accounting for people doing a double run on it. Probably just thinking of renewing POIs already looted so the quests could take place there. Just like with most things they "fix" in the game because they didnt think it would act the way players are now using it in an exploitive way (eg: steep blocks, hatch elevators, maze bases, etc).

I'm trying to keep "realism" and "immersion breaking" out of the discussion, but resetting a POI that you just cleared (which, in itself, is stupid) - on intention of getting double the loot - is not a choice on how to play the game.. its a choice over abusing a mechanic - and those are very different things.

So much so that the Devs are actually pondering about ways to prevent sneaky rushing looting (hence the key to unlock lootroom idea) and it might even fix the POI reset matter as a side effect.

And I'd also like to add: what is even the point of the forum if we can't express our thoughts on mechanics in the game? On how we wish things would evolve to? In principle, we shouldnt discuss things because they might still be added in the future?

In principle, we shouldnt start threads other than for bug reports, questions and joking.... because discussing anything is pointless since you'll do you and I'll do me?

 

[mr.devolver]

riiiiiiigggghhhhhhttttt..... before they start a given quest on that one POI, yes.

Right, so TFP should make it so that there will be absolutely no POIs in the world by defaut and each and every quest POI will suddenly spawn out of nowhere at random position in the world and only stay there while the quest tied to it is active, so that the players could never prepare for what's coming... That would surely address Blake's concern about boredom, or would it...

 

[th3s0n1c]

Right, so TFP should make it so that there will be absolutely no POIs in the world by defaut and each and every quest POI will suddenly spawn out of nowhere at random position in the world and only stay there while the quest tied to it is active, so that the players could never prepare for what's coming... That would surely address Blake's concern about boredom, or would it...

No, but I guess you're just gonna keep trying to be a smartass.

Blake's suggestion already fixes the problem we're both discussing just by tying the reset to the POI once the quest is selected at the trader.