PC About Double clearing POIs and how to fix it

[RestInPieces]

Everything in the game can be boiled down to repetitive mouseclicks. If your interest level isn't really high in a particular activity to begin with then you are likely to focus on the repetitive aspects of it.

Yes, although these clicks are enhanced by player agency, RNG, dynamics, fancy assets etc etc... As someone who can appreciate even bland clicker games, the quest thing is as stale as it gets. Please probe their asses to make it a bit more interesting at least. 

 

[mr.devolver]

Yes there's a significant difference. In single player you have to swallow ALL the doublings. In multiplayer, sometimes. A better design will reduce that boring mechanic of repeating the same POI immediately after clearing it once. And even if you want to exploit my design, you never know which quest you'll going to get and time it right so you clear it twice "by chance"  .So, again, resetting on quest acceptance is better. Then, you can activate the marker whenever you want, that is, if you read the OP correctly, which I'm starting to think you didn't.

Well, many things are boring or don't really match my play style, but I'm not requesting their removal, because I respect that some other players may find them fun and removing them might not really change anything for better, only decrease the amount of free choices, making the game painfully linear even more.

It's a logic like this that ultimately convinced the developers to remove Learn By Doing mechanic from the game - "Because I don't like that"...

 

[Rince]

Lets say you enter a cosplay contest. The due date is november 1st. You spend a month crafting your outfit. Comes november 1st, your cosplay wins. You get the prizes. Then you press a magical reset button and you're back at october 1st with due date for the context on november 1st (and you still have the prizes you got). Now you can spend 28 days slacking off and spend october 29th and 30th building the outfit because now you know exactly where all the stitches go, where to glue stuff, etc. And once again, you win and get the prizes.

It doesnt feel right, imo.

But the zombies, I mean stichtes aren't in the same place, and you still have to glue all the vultures, I mean, clothing... I mean, hitting the buttons in the head with the sledge...

Okay, maybe I got a bit confused, but it's not exactly the same and you still have to do it.

 

[mr.devolver]

If you're not familiar with the POI, the first clear can be used as a scout mission to figure out the path intended, the places where zombies spawn, where there are rooms that draw aggro and how, etc. Once it's completely looted and cleared, you can reset the entire thing in 1 second for a much faster and easier clear since you know how it's going to be. The exploit comes from the knowledge you acquire (with little to no risk on the first clear)+ double loot. Its not something that benefits you over other players, but it benefits you over a poor mechanic design.

Soooo, we should probably ban exploring the POIs entirely to prevent the players from learning how to clear them before they do the quests, riiiiiiigggghhhhhhttttt.....

Everything in the game can be boiled down to repetitive mouseclicks. If your interest level isn't really high in a particular activity to begin with then you are likely to focus on the repetitive aspects of it. For those who like looting there must be a payoff for them that may not be "creative" but something else. 

Building is creative and something you enjoy immensely but I know some and have read many more who prefer to just take over a POI because building from scratch is boring and repetitive for them.

Then again, building is boring, so logically we should ban it and only allow the players to take over existing POIs. Naturally, to avoid issues with the quest POIs, we should only allow players to take over non-quest POIs. Is it limiting their base options? Who cares, right? We killed the boredom, or did we introduce even bigger boredom while trying to kill it? Oh well...

Lets say you enter a cosplay contest. The due date is november 1st. You spend a month crafting your outfit. Comes november 1st, your cosplay wins. You get the prizes. Then you press a magical reset button and you're back at october 1st with due date for the context on november 1st (and you still have the prizes you got). Now you can spend 28 days slacking off and spend october 29th and 30th building the outfit because now you know exactly where all the stitches go, where to glue stuff, etc. And once again, you win and get the prizes.

It doesnt feel right, imo.

You got me. This is how I win contests every time in real life...

 

[Boidster]

I've got a better question!

If I made a quest of clearing the poi why it is not marked as cleared on the map and there are no troop fending it against re-invasion of zeds? I'd like to have some npcs patrolling the area and even help me defend my base on horde nights!

You might look into Creature Pack - Humans. They run around and fight zombies and other hostiles. All you have to do is trap a few of them around your base, like inside the spike traps or something. Cruel indentured servitude? Sure! But it's a harsh apocalypse and only the strong survive.

 

[Blake_]

Well, many things are boring or don't really match my play style, but I'm not requesting their removal, because I respect that some other players may find them fun and removing them might not really change anything for better, only decrease the amount of free choices, making the game painfully linear even more.

It's a logic like this that ultimately convinced the developers to remove Learn By Doing mechanic from the game - "Because I don't like that"...

I respect your opinion.  I prefer not to have boring mechanics and I express my opinion if I see one that I feel it is.  It all boils down to which path the game takes in the future. Personally, I prefer a lesser artificial design than a simple trigger in the marker and tilt in favor of a reset at the trader and deal with the edge cases, because it might help some of us to feel less "alienated" from the quest stuff and avoid an abundance that doesn't fit well in this kind of genre. That's just me.

My cat also thinks like me, he looks like he does, at least. 

 

[mr.devolver]

You might look into Creature Pack - Humans. They run around and fight zombies and other hostiles. All you have to do is trap a few of them around your base, like inside the spike traps or something. Cruel indentured servitude? Sure! But it's a harsh apocalypse and only the strong survive.

Umm, I mean you can hire them with coins (DMT NPC mod), but to each their own I guess LOL

 

[JCrook1028]

avoid the exploit of getting twice the reward for little the effort ALL the time.

You're getting twice the reward for exactly twice the effort.....

 

[Kalen]

I prefer not to have boring mechanics and I express my opinion if I see one that I feel it is

I'd argue that the mechanic itself isn't boring.... the way you're using it may be to you, though.

 

[Roland]

It's a logic like this that ultimately convinced the developers to remove Learn By Doing mechanic from the game - "Because I don't like that"...

That is definitively NOT why LBD was removed. 

You're getting twice the reward for exactly twice the effort.....

Minus travel expenses.....

 

[JCrook1028]

That is definitively NOT why LBD was removed. 

Minus travel expenses.....

Yea cause walking to the house next door to loot saves so much time. The whole concept of this somehow being an exploit is flawed. I personally don't dbl clear cause it's boring doing the same POI right after itself. That does not make it an exploit tho.

 

[mr.devolver]

That is definitively NOT why LBD was removed.

For a moment there, I thought you decided to not play a devil's advocate for once...

We all know why was LBD removed. It was for the crybabies, I just didn't feel like elaborating on that part. Players didn't like it that some OTHER players enjoyed spending their precious time and resources on leveling up, so they wanted to "FIX" it for them by crying out loud and complaining to developers about the whole Learn By Doing mechanic and how bad and unfair and wrong and whatever it is and yet no one really took into consideration that it was ultimately an alternative way of doing things that was just there for those who wanted it, but no one was really forced to play the game that way if they didn't want to and a proof of that were all the players who complained about it, obviously they all played it differently, which is fine, but I see no reason why should they enforce their own playstyle on us.

 

[Roland]

We all know why was LBD removed. It was for the crybabies, I just didn't feel like elaborating on that part.

It would have been foolish of you to elaborate upon a false assumption like that.

Players didn't like it that some OTHER players enjoyed spending their precious time and resources on leveling up, so they wanted to "FIX" it for them by crying out loud and complaining to developers about the whole Learn By Doing mechanic and how bad and unfair and wrong and whatever it is and yet no one really took into consideration that it was ultimately an alternative way of doing things that was just there for those who wanted it, but no one was really forced to play the game that way if they didn't want to and a proof of that were all the players who complained about it, obviously they all played it differently, which is fine, but I see no reason why should they enforce their own playstyle on us.

LOL...which one is it? Is it that there were complaints that the devs listened to and that is why LBD was removed or was it that TFP changed something that NOBODY WANTED CHANGED!  Because I've heard both arguments ad nauseum over the past year and a half and the hilarious thing about it is that while both are mutually exclusive neither is true.

I'm gonna throw the Devs under the bus for a minute and tell you that the decision was theirs and theirs alone and it was a long time coming through gradual changes. Alpha 11-13 was pure LBD mechanics + books. Alpha 14-16 added skillpoints but still with some LBD mechanics in place. Alpha 17-19 was skillpoints and books and LBD was phased out finally. From Alpha 14 onward LBD lessened with each update and skillpoints grew in importance. This was a result of the dev team, and them alone, experimenting and iterating and looking at balances and finally settling upon the system they felt they could develop into the best game they wanted. I mean, here we are a year past the final word that LBD would never come back and we still have voices in opposition. If TFP were susceptible to the crying voices of loud and persistent players then LBD would be back, we wouldn't be pulling stone axes out of shotgun messiah crates, and XBOX and PS4 players would have their updates. But they aren't. 

So don't blame some faction of players who don't want others to have fun a different way. That faction doesn't have their fingers on any buttons that matter. The decision to go full on skillpoints and phase out LBD was made at the TFP studio over a long period of time and from many many conversations and design meetings that didn't involve any forum factions at all. The fact is that no player anywhere who complains about anything can enforce their playstyle upon you. If people asked for digging zombies and TFP did it, it was only because they planned to do it anyway. If people complained about people driving around all night on hordenight and TFP made it a death sentence to do so then it was only because TFP was planning to do that themselves.

I am not playing Devil's Advocate on this either because that would imply that I am also making assumptions and speculations as an alternate possibility to your own assumptions and speculations. I am giving you the facts which blow your speculations out of the water. LBD was phased out due to balancing decisions and design choices. Perks with skillpoints were listed in early mockups during the kickstarter. They experimented with LBD but ultimately chose to return to their original plan and despite the huge backlash that has continued from a very vocal faction, they have 100% resisted going back to it precisely because they are not as easily influenced as you suppose. 

 

[Blake_]

You're getting twice the reward for exactly twice the effort.....

No. Way less effort the second time because of previous short-term knowledge. It also grants twice the loot and you can exploit said knowledge in your favour. Yeah, you can argue that we will eventually know all the POIs (not really, not fully, there are 500+) , but with the current system you guarantee the previous short-term knowledge for mission success. That's ugly and feels cheap design-wise.

That would be cool.... but is this speculation or based on something thats been said?   I may have missed something, but the last time I saw this issue discussed, Joel felt that it was fine as is.

Yes. Madmole and The Fun Pimp said that they would like that. And things that they would like usually become true.

 

[Kalen]

No. Way less effort the second time because of previous short-term knowledge. It also grants twice the loot and you can exploit said knowledge in your favour. Yeah, you can argue that we will eventually know all the POIs (not really, not fully, there are 500+) , but with the current system you guarantee the previous short-term knowledge for mission success. That's ugly and feels cheap design-wise.

You must be a far better player than I.... because I don't see it as "way less effort".  For me it's microscopically less effort.

 

[Boidster]

Umm, I mean you can hire them with coins (DMT NPC mod), but to each their own I guess LOL

If I wanted pliable mercenaries I would have installed that mod. I much prefer roleplaying as ruthless alpha-survivor, herding marginally useful meatshields into defensive positions around my base. I give them murky water and Sham sandwiches if they survive the horde nights...

/but srsly have not looked into that other mod yet...sounds neat

 

[mr.devolver]

It would have been foolish of you to elaborate upon a false assumption like that.

LOL...which one is it? Is it that there were complaints that the devs listened to and that is why LBD was removed or was it that TFP changed something that NOBODY WANTED CHANGED!  Because I've heard both arguments ad nauseum over the past year and a half and the hilarious thing about it is that while both are mutually exclusive neither is true.

I'm gonna throw the Devs under the bus for a minute and tell you that the decision was theirs and theirs alone and it was a long time coming through gradual changes. Alpha 11-13 was pure LBD mechanics + books. Alpha 14-16 added skillpoints but still with some LBD mechanics in place. Alpha 17-19 was skillpoints and books and LBD was phased out finally. From Alpha 14 onward LBD lessened with each update and skillpoints grew in importance. This was a result of the dev team, and them alone, experimenting and iterating and looking at balances and finally settling upon the system they felt they could develop into the best game they wanted. I mean, here we are a year past the final word that LBD would never come back and we still have voices in opposition. If TFP were susceptible to the crying voices of loud and persistent players then LBD would be back, we wouldn't be pulling stone axes out of shotgun messiah crates, and XBOX and PS4 players would have their updates. But they aren't. 

So don't blame some faction of players who don't want others to have fun a different way. That faction doesn't have their fingers on any buttons that matter. The decision to go full on skillpoints and phase out LBD was made at the TFP studio over a long period of time and from many many conversations and design meetings that didn't involve any forum factions at all. The fact is that no player anywhere who complains about anything can enforce their playstyle upon you. If people asked for digging zombies and TFP did it, it was only because they planned to do it anyway. If people complained about people driving around all night on hordenight and TFP made it a death sentence to do so then it was only because TFP was planning to do that themselves.

I am not playing Devil's Advocate on this either because that would imply that I am also making assumptions and speculations as an alternate possibility to your own assumptions and speculations. I am giving you the facts which blow your speculations out of the water. LBD was phased out due to balancing desicions and design choices. Perks with skillpoints were listed in early mockups during the kickstarter. They experimented with LBD but ultimately chose to return to their original plan and despite the huge backlash that has continued from a very vocal faction, they have 100% resisted going back to it precisely because they are not as easily influenced as you suppose.

Ok, so you're saying that TFP never really listented to the feedback (and never really made a single poll here in the forums either and I never really participated in the said polls) and so their decision to remove LBD mechanic was not affected by any part of the player base who thoroughly cried (I'm sorry, discussed) the matter here in the forum to no end saying how much they hate it when they see some other players stay at their base spending their precious time and resources on spam crafting just to level up.

Ok, also an opinion, but it seems like we will have to agree to disagree as usual...

 

[Blake_]

You must be a far better player than I.... because I don't see it as "way less effort".  For me it's microscopically less effort.

For me, it depends on the day. But we could agree that there are many factors to short-time doubling that are not that appealing from a design perspective and that give an advantage. Whether this advantage is small or big doesn't really make it less of an issue, in my opinion.

 

[Kalen]

For me, it depends on the day. But we can agree that ther are many factors to short-time doubling that are not that appealing from a design perspective and that give an advantage. Whether this advantage is small or big doesn't really make it less of an issue, in my opinion.

Fair enough.   Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to a change in the quest system.   I just can't agree with anyone calling the existing system an "exploit".   Immersion breaking?   Unrealistic?  Even clunky?   Sure, I wont argue with someone that feels that way.

 

[mr.devolver]

You know Blake_, I don't blame you for not really liking the current system, I mean it's not an ideal one by any stretch, but it's as good as it can get at the moment, with the current framework. It's not written into the stone, it will surely change over time, but we should not settle for some unnecessary cosmetic changes if there's a promise of some better system in the future. After all madmole once mentioned that this will be a temporary one before they can come up with something better and perhaps something more immersive and who knows? Maybe the issues you have with the current system will be irrelevant by then.