PC About Double clearing POIs and how to fix it

[Blake_]

Of course spending time on that would mean less time spent working on new features.  At this stage in development, I'd rather have new features than a redesigned quest system where the main benefit is protecting players who lack self-control from ruining their own experience. However, even if Lathan had nothing else to do but polish questing, there are other aspects that I'd rather have polished first (better POI selection, less repeating selections, etc.) but that's just my personal preference. 

Well, of course given that it's not  the highest priority right now and more of a "quality of life feature", I think I posted it in the right timeframe because a20 might be all about that. I mean, Prime is doing quality of life quest tweaks and npcs are still a bit in the medium term and the Art team and animators' hands are full with the Special infected stuff and assets.

If put against a wall and asked for, I would of course prefer many other features over this, though this seems like the right moment.

Not that I'm really for or against POI resets, but.. the Trader could simply do a check to see if the POI has been looted when the quest is rolled, and if so just reroll until an unlooted POI is found. It can be as simple as checking whether the main stash has been looted, or a random combination of stashes, or even if the zombie closets are unbroken. And if no suitable POI is found then it selects the initial result and the player has to accept the POI reset.

Really the only pro's of POI resets is that on small maps it allows for a longer times on that map. On other maps it's just a trade off between speed versus exploration (some players prefer speed progressing, while others prefer the joys of exploring new places).

Personally, I prefer not to double dip but my cohorts prefer to. In MP it's way easier to stripmine a POI, since players can focus on one task (one goes to clear, the other follows behind loots, and a third immediately starting salvaging). So resetting is beneficial in that case because the travel time between quest POIs is more significant than the actual POI clearing time. So it's mostly a MP balance issue, which frankly TFP should be concerned with but that's such a pain to get right that I'm expecting that the game balance be focused around SP. And in SP it's not that much of an issue.

The closest POIs could've already been looted and then what? Back to my solution. I thought of that. Might work on par with my OP.

Longer times on smaller maps? I'm all for that, let's reset every time we take a quest. But not artificially doubling if it can be avoided. As I stated, a more varied POI situation pool like bandits, then Zds, then animals or npc stuff, etc... could give variety to the non-avoidable resets.

 

[DaChibii]

The closest POIs could've already been looted and then what? Back to my solution. I thought of that. Might work on par with my OP.

Well... This sounds like a public MP server issue, more than a co-op or SP issue. And if that case... then it's more an issue with new player placement then it's about actual POI resets. Otherwise, it's just a behind the scenes fix since it's doubtful a new player is going to loot every available POI before the quests run out. And if they do, then they don't need the quest XP or rewards since they've already progressed so much. And even then... it still doesn't remove the reset, it just places it at the end.

Granted, if my suggestion actually got implemented (doubtful; TFP has a production schedule and process) a player would then get a choice: loot nearby POIs to trader for quick sales and risk losing out on close quests, or be more selective which POIs to loot so not to mess up the pool. At extremes a savvy player could exploit it to alter the available pool to their desire, but... that would be alot of effort.

 

[Rince]

If isn't broken don't fix it.

The system as it is now works well. If some people enjoy doing low tier mission twice each time, be my guest. I not gonna decide how they play.

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

Well, of course given that it's not  the highest priority right now and more of a "quality of life feature", I think I posted it in the right timeframe because a20 might be all about that. I mean, Prime is doing quality of life quest tweaks and npcs are still a bit in the medium term and the Art team and animators' hands are full with the Special infected stuff and assets.

Since I don't believe I've said this in any of my posts, I should state that I agree with you that the current implementation of starting quests and resetting POIs should be reworked before the game goes gold. The ability to loot a POI and then immediately reset it is too gamey in my opinion for a finished game. I just don't think it's a priority and it's probably best to wait until TFP has more things in place before reworking quests. What likely needs to happen first is that TFP needs to focus on finalizing how questing, POI resets, and loot rooms are intended to work rather than leaving those for the indefinite future. However, depending on their bandwidth there may be other areas of the game that require that focus first (RWG, Bandits, etc.)

 

[Blake_]

If isn't broken don't fix it.

The system as it is now works well. If some people enjoy doing low tier mission twice each time, be my guest. I not gonna decide how they play.

I drawn to the beauty within the simplicity of your comment. It sure can be improved though. 

 

[RestInPieces]

While I agree that not having it at all would be the designer's "wet dream", resetting is needed for cleanup and handling quests in a way that enforces a minimum pleasant experience to all the players in all the possible environments

This is an easy fix imo, scrap this 90s mmo-style abomination, that is called "quests", as well!

 

[mr.devolver]

So if I understood this "problem" correctly, you guys seem to have an issue with this so called "exploit" which works like this: You go to a POI for a quest and before activating the quest, you run through the POI, clear it and loot it, activate the quest and do the same thing again.

Question: What's the actual exploit here? What's the unintentional feature here that gives me an edge over the other players? What's the advantage that allows me to gain something that I would normally have to work for much harder otherwise? More importantly, when it comes to gaining something out of doing this so called "exploit", is it still worth it if it takes the player double the time they would normally spend doing the quest? And most importantly, since it takes double the time the player would normally spend doing the quest, is it still an exploit at all? Seriously, guys?!! What's the difference between clearing the POI randomly BEFORE even accepting the quest from the trader AND clearing the POI after accepting the quest from the trader, BUT still BEFORE activating the quest? The only real difference is the time you choose to clear the said POI for the first time, therefore you are FREE to choose if and when exactly you want to clear the POI and you are free to do it at your own pace, but there's no real exploit there because it's not an unintentional feature that would let you gain something for nothing, you still have to work your ass through the POI as you would normally do at different time! In short, if you're asking for a "fix" for this so called "exploit", you're essentially asking for removal of this freedom of choice from you. There's absolutely nothing to gain out of removing this option, quite the opposite - you're giving up the freedom of choice to clear out the POI immediately before activating the quest there which ultimately doesn't make sense, simply because you SHOULD be able to clear out the POI at ANY time you want!

TL;DR: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[Vampirenostra]

I've got a better question!

If I made a quest of clearing the poi why it is not marked as cleared on the map and there are no troop fending it against re-invasion of zeds? I'd like to have some npcs patrolling the area and even help me defend my base on horde nights!

 

[Blake_]

Question: What's the actual exploit here? What's the unintentional feature here that gives me an edge over the other players?

Double clearing by a single player because of the current design of the quest acceptance and quest marks. If you have cleared it before by chance, no problem. It's ok. But going there and double dipping methodically at one's leisure doubling the earnings... mmm no. I'm all about freedom. There's absolutely no wall against freedom here. Just a tweak in design to avoid the exploit of getting twice the reward for little the effort ALL the time. I argue that it's boring and the reset should occur at the trader + my suggestions for edge cases. Unintentionally done by TFP? I don't know about that.

You know... games usually reset on quest acceptance. Here it's just a little trickier for multiplayer reasons + voxel nature of the game.

I've got a better question!

If I made a quest of clearing the poi why it is not marked as cleared on the map and there are no troop fending it against re-invasion of zeds? I'd like to have some npcs patrolling the area and even help me defend my base on horde nights!

That feature will come in future updates but not exactly as you envision. Followers will be limited to one or two tops and npcs will behave as they do now in Fallout 3 give it or take (limited chores + limited patrolling).  When I say future updates I mean 24+ months at the very least. Edit: the funniest thing is that IT WILL come, unlike other early access titles.

 

[mr.devolver]

Double clearing by a single player because of the current design of the quest acceptance and quest marks. If you have cleared it before by chance, no problem. It's ok. But going there and double dipping methodically at one's leisure doubling the earnings... mmm no. I'm all about freedom. There's absolutely no wall against freedom here. Just a tweak in design to avoid the exploit of getting twice the reward for little the effort ALL the time. I argue that it's boring and the reset should occur at the trader + my suggestions for edge cases. Unintentionally done by TFP? I don't know about that.

You know... games usually reset on quest acceptance. Here it's just a little trickier for multiplayer reasons.

So you're ok with it if I cleared it before by chance, but not if I clear it before activating the quest? But there's no difference besides really just the time at which I choose to clear the POI, not to mention it really takes me double the time it would normally take me to clear the POI just once during the quest, so there's no such thing as "getting twice the reward for little the effort", because in reality it is double the effort = double the reward. It doesn't feel like an exploit to me, it feels like it's only fair. If you work twice as hard, your reward should be twice as big. You obviously have a different play style, but please don't try to "fix" it for everyone with your idea of perfect play style, because we all love different stuff.

 

[Blake_]

So you're ok with it if I cleared it before by chance, but not if I clear it before activating the quest? But there's no difference besides really just the time at which I choose to clear the POI, not to mention it really takes me double the time it would normally take me to clear the POI just once during the quest, so there's no such thing as "getting twice the reward for little the effort", because in reality it is double the effort = double the reward. It doesn't feel like an exploit to me, it feels like it's only fair. If you work twice as hard, your reward should be twice as big. You obviously have a different play style, but please don't try to "fix" it for everyone with your idea of perfect play style, because we all love different stuff.

Yes there's a significant difference. In single player you have to swallow ALL the doublings. In multiplayer, sometimes. A better design will reduce that boring mechanic of repeating the same POI immediately after clearing it once. And even if you want to exploit my design, you never know which quest you'll going to get and time it right so you clear it twice "by chance"  .So, again, resetting on quest acceptance is better. Then, you can activate the marker whenever you want, that is, if you read the OP correctly, which I'm starting to think you didn't.

 

[Kalen]

getting twice the reward for little the effort ALL the time

I don't understand this statement.... is the POI somehow easier 1 of the times you go through it?    You have to clear it twice, which is no different than clearing it once and clearing another POI once.   I guess you could say you save the time it takes to walk to another POI, but thats hardly game breaking.

 

[Blake_]

I don't understand this statement.... is the POI somehow easier 1 of the times you go through it?    You have to clear it twice, which is no different than clearing it once and clearing another POI once.   I guess you could say you save the time it takes to walk to another POI, but thats hardly game breaking.

While you can argue (and you are) that you do just the same effort the second time, my OP post is about the mental effects (doubling the exact same POI immediatly after is booooring) plus the "feature" itself : it's not about the effort, but the repetitive mechanic of doing the same thing twice within short amount of time. I believe that in the future it will get adressed by adding different threats each time, so at that point this thread might be obsolete.... in the mean time :

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/590/065/b96.jpg

 

[Kalen]

While you can argue (and you are) that you do just the same effort the second time, my OP post is about the mental effects (doubling the exact same POI immediatly after is booooring) plus the "feature" itself : it's not about the effort, but the repetitive mechanic of doing the same thing twice within short amount of time

Ooook, I see your point, but if you find it boring doing the same POI twice, wouldn't the solution be to not do it?   There seems to be people who like doing the POI twice.... seems wrong to remove something that people like because others find the optional activity boring.  Personally, I never do the POI twice.   I'd rather get another quest and do another POI.

I believe that in the future it will get adressed by adding different threats each time

That would be cool.... but is this speculation or based on something thats been said?   I may have missed something, but the last time I saw this issue discussed, Joel felt that it was fine as is.

 

[th3s0n1c]

So you're ok with it if I cleared it before by chance, but not if I clear it before activating the quest? But there's no difference besides really just the time at which I choose to clear the POI, not to mention it really takes me double the time it would normally take me to clear the POI just once during the quest, so there's no such thing as "getting twice the reward for little the effort", because in reality it is double the effort = double the reward.

If you're not familiar with the POI, the first clear can be used as a scout mission to figure out the path intended, the places where zombies spawn, where there are rooms that draw aggro and how, etc. Once it's completely looted and cleared, you can reset the entire thing in 1 second for a much faster and easier clear since you know how it's going to be. The exploit comes from the knowledge you acquire (with little to no risk on the first clear)+ double loot. Its not something that benefits you over other players, but it benefits you over a poor mechanic design.

I don't understand this statement.... is the POI somehow easier 1 of the times you go through it?    You have to clear it twice, which is no different than clearing it once and clearing another POI once. 

The first time you clear you can scout the POI for further reference, making it a lot faster on a second clear. And since you're not yet doing the quest, if you die, it doesnt matter. If you run away, it doesnt matter. So the second clear takes less effort because you're now familiar with the POI and you get double the loot with an instant reset with no penalty.

 

[Roland]

Looting is boring in itself because it is the same over and over again. No matter if you loot the same POI twice or two different POIs. There is nothing creative about looting. You just kill all zombies and then search all the loot containers you find.

Everything in the game can be boiled down to repetitive mouseclicks. If your interest level isn't really high in a particular activity to begin with then you are likely to focus on the repetitive aspects of it. For those who like looting there must be a payoff for them that may not be "creative" but something else. 

Building is creative and something you enjoy immensely but I know some and have read many more who prefer to just take over a POI because building from scratch is boring and repetitive for them.

 

[Kalen]

The first time you clear you can scout the POI for further reference, making it a lot faster on a second clear. And since you're not yet doing the quest, if you die, it doesnt matter. If you run away, it doesnt matter. So the second clear takes less effort because you're now familiar with the POI and you get double the loot with an instant reset with no penalty.

Ok, true.... I guess.    But big deal, if someone wants to do the POI twice to get familiar with it, who cares?   Again, it's not double the loot with no penalty..... its double the loot for double the work.   No advantage whatsoever (other than the miniscule benefit of seeing the POI twice in a row)

 

[Rince]

While you can argue (and you are) that you do just the same effort the second time, my OP post is about the mental effects (doubling the exact same POI immediatly after is booooring) plus the "feature" itself : it's not about the effort, but the repetitive mechanic of doing the same thing twice within short amount of time. I believe that in the future it will get adressed by adding different threats each time, so at that point this thread might be obsolete.... in the mean time :

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/590/065/b96.jpg

Umm... but isn't exactly the same when resets. Last night I was watching a youtuber playing 7dtd and looted the POI and then reset and did the quest and the zombies were in different places the second time.

And anyways, it's easy, if you don't find fun to do it you can simply don't do it.

 

[th3s0n1c]

Ok, true.... I guess.    But big deal, if someone wants to do the POI twice to get familiar with it, who cares?   Again, it's not double the loot with no penalty..... its double the loot for double the work.   No advantage whatsoever (other than the miniscule benefit of seeing the POI twice in a row)

Lets say you enter a cosplay contest. The due date is november 1st. You spend a month crafting your outfit. Comes november 1st, your cosplay wins. You get the prizes. Then you press a magical reset button and you're back at october 1st with due date for the context on november 1st (and you still have the prizes you got). Now you can spend 28 days slacking off and spend october 29th and 30th building the outfit because now you know exactly where all the stitches go, where to glue stuff, etc. And once again, you win and get the prizes.

It doesnt feel right, imo.

 

[Kalen]

Lets say you enter a cosplay contest. The due date is november 1st. You spend a month crafting your outfit. Comes november 1st, your cosplay wins. You get the prizes. Then you press a magical reset button and you're back at october 1st with due date for the context on november 1st (and you still have the prizes you got). Now you can spend 28 days slacking off and spend october 29th and 30th building the outfit because now you know exactly where all the stitches go, where to glue stuff, etc. And once again, you win and get the prizes.

It doesnt feel right, imo.

That is a false equivalency, IMO.   Knowing the layout of a POI, while a bit helpful, doesn't really save you much time or effort.   The POI itself already tells you the correct path to take.   About the only thing you gain is the location of any traps that might be present.  A benefit, but certainly not "28 days" worth of benefit.