PC A20 Developer Diary Discussions
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Roland
Super Moderator
I don't need to prove that fun is the whole point of playing.
You've been told several times by multiple people but you can't understand it because it is alien to your way of thinking. This is not a dig. I'm just stating that we have no common frame of reference. Analogies don't work because you can't see the connection and so you dismiss them. Flat out telling you hasn't worked because you can't believe that people actually don't care about efficiency and are deceiving themselves as they play to maintain their fiction. It's taken us awhile to figure out where you're coming from but I think we are finally getting the gist of it.
This is not to say that I don't think that bow and stealth can't see some improvements but it is to say that I am perfectly happy with how they play right now and have had many enjoyable hours playing the game focusing on these areas for the sake of playing survival with a specific type of character. So in the sense that you can play and have an enjoyable time and experience some challenge they are balanced nicely vs the gamestage progression of the game itself as it gets more difficult. You can be a stealthy archer and survive.
But...all of this just sounds like a bicycle with square wheels to you right?
I get that you are not saying these things to be insulting. You are just stating facts as you see them. The problem is that your sense of bad is all wrapped up in efficiency and speed which are qualities of gameplay that you value. So just saying people play bad because they made bad choices is to general. We have to know that bad choices means choosing actions that don't progress your character as quickly as another action that is available. This is why you will never play bow and stealth because as soon as you have a weapon that is better than the bow you must choose that weapon and dump the bow in order to make a good choice.
People who value other aspects of the game will view keeping the bow and continuing the game as an archer as a good choice.
Robbing Zombie
New member
Dear lord, is that tennis match still going on........
Jost Amman
Well-known member
Maybe you forget he's a "speed runner", he actually reached those measly 8K hours in a fraction of the time it took the other guy, you know? :mmph:
Oh, you mean like your bad attitude and manners? ... Yes, that's a fact.
Yep, one of the devs just confirmed it... now what?
Blake_
Captain Obvious
Objectively speaking, every speech in the world is subjective to the one/s that made it, regardless of the neutrality of the words used, because it doesn't matter if it has or not meaning, as long as it exists, the objective is to transmit something or produce any kind of thought from the subjective emitter's opinion to the receptor.
Everybody thinks that's true
Jost Amman
Well-known member
bachgaman
New member
The game doesn't get more fun if it's out of balance
Once again, the fact of having fun does not confirm the presence of balance.
If they like to keep playing with the bow when they have a machine gun, then let them play with the bow, but the fact that there are people who do it does not refute my words that bows and stealth are incredibly weak and unclaimed in this game. You yourself admitted this, and even the developers wrote that the bows will be strengthened. What can you argue about, I don’t understand. I don't care about your philosophy of permissiveness, I really don't care what others do.
Again. I declare that bows and stealth are useless. You assure me that this is not the case, because you and 2 other people on the forum are using it. But here the logical connection is broken. Just because you enjoy using the useless does not turn the useless into the useful. This is easy to understand with an example. If you do not improve perks at all, then the unallocated perk points will not be useful. If in this case you say that the unallocated perk points will become useful because someone has enjoyed playing with them, then I wash my hands.
He lied. I have never stated this
I did not offend anyone in this thread. The fact that you are offended by the mention of bad players is your personal problem. And this despite the fact that I did not call any of you bad players.
Has he confirmed that the entire balance is directed only to the Adventurer? Show me where.
Roland
Super Moderator
I know. It's okay. If eight pages couldn't make it happen one more response won't either. Our values are completely different and that's fine. I've already said that I agree with you that under your conditions stealth and bows are unbalanced. Understanding your perspective, I agree that if I have a bow and find a machine gun that is much more powerful in every way, I should take the machine gun and since the machine gun exists it makes the bow completely useless and pointless. If I ever choose to focus on efficiency then I will remember all your tips and strategies.
That's all we can do at this point. I just want to point out that I washed mine first which makes me a better hand washer by your rules.
Roland
Super Moderator
Balancing is done with Nomad in mind. Nomad is considered normal difficulty by the devs. But default is set to Normal -1 for the express reason that gamer ego often prevents new players from reducing the difficulty to easy mode even if they should but never prevents new players from increasing the difficulty if they want. The default is the best level to learn how to play for many players so that is why it is selected by default but Nomad is considered normal difficulty.
I play on Warrior, myself, because I it isn't too tedious having each zombie fight take so many hits but it feels good that after a few level ups I can see the difference of how many hits it took to kill a zombie at the start compared to how many times it does now. Plus I like the more frequent Rage occurrences. I've been thinking about Survivalist but just haven't done it because Warrior feels perfect to me.
BFT2020
Well-known member
I played Warrior at first and then went up to Survivalist. I stick mostly with Surv, unless I am trying out something new and don't want to have to deal with the added challenges of Survivalist mode. Insane, I tried it once or twice but decided it wasn't fun playing that mode so I haven't played it again. Insane just felt.....like bullet sponges.
If you do try to go up higher, pick something you are comfortable with to start out with. That's my recommendation.
So? To use stealth as a tool you have to invest in its perks and use bows, at least in the beginning there is no adequate replacement for the silence of a bow.
Maybe "condescending", "dismissive" rings a bell ?
If you say "Default difficulty is incredibly easy even for newbie" you are not talking about one specific newbie (obviously, since we never talked about a specific one), you are talking about any newbie. You should know English well enough to know that this is a general statement.
You and your friends have probably the same background in games played, often the same tastes, nearly the same age maybe. When you started playing you surely talked about good and bad perks, what is best to play, formed opinions together. You and your friends are not independant samples.
bachgaman
New member
Why would I invest in a perk that the game doesn't need? I never need to hide, under any circumstances. Again, I don’t want to play stealth for the sake of playing stealth
There was nothing like that in that message. Everything was written as it is. Why are you all so fond of taking offense at the truth? Anyway, I didn't try to insult her
If think about it, I would really say that it have to be easy for most beginners. Except for people who are new to computer games generally. I am not passing it off as truth. I think so.
The problem with such low difficulty is that you will have little sense of progress. At the start of the game, you can kill a zombie with literally torch by 3 hits like this, check spoilers in linked post:
In fact, any difficulty becomes very easy sooner or later. The lower the difficulty, the faster it happens. This is a difficulty design problem. My mega graph about this:
POCKET951
New member
here comes the graph, we have evolved from long walls of text to pictures, pie charts and power point presentations. when do we start doing group zoom debates?In fact, any difficulty becomes very easy sooner or later. The lower the difficulty, the faster it happens. This is a difficulty design problem. My mega graph about this:
bachgaman
New member
It is from another topic, here it is so that you can enjoy the other two graphics that I presented there
When I start the game I usually decide which specialization I want to take. Because the game gives me enough options and drops enough weapons I don't need to depend on which good weapon drops in the first container. I can specialize even before starting the game and won't really be hurt by this decision. If I decide to use the machine gun, I do not only decide to use machine gun, but also decide to have a high ammo usage and being a relatively bad miner, stealther and wrencher. The game is balanced on attributes and if I look at the attributes as a whole fortitude is not the unanimous winner anymore, I get the best gun but weak utility perks.
If I postpone deciding what to specialize into then a lot of factors will come into play as I distribute my perk points into various must-have perks and wait for the circumstances to give me an idea where I want to put my perk points. For example such a point could be me sitting in the base and night starts and I don't feel safe enough to go out at night. As a stealther I can use the night for quests and be relatively safe
Again, the game is (somewhat) balanced on attribute level. When I choose agility and have invested a few points there then an AK47 I find might still make sense as an "emergency" weapon, but I get much more mileage out of using the agility weapons than the unbuffed AK (since the unbuffed AKs ammo usage will be too much even for the current trader imbalance)
In multiplayer specialization to different attributes is a must. Even with the current trader imbalance not more than 2 players can use the same gun and be happy with that arrangement (I speak theoretically, never tried this in an actual game).
When I say balanced on attribute level this is not quite true. They are balanced only to be in the same ballpark, a rough equivalence. Especially STR is supposed to be THE attribute for beginners and is easier to play than other attributes, INT and Agility are only easy to play for experienced players. Fortitude presently is easier to play as well as there is too much ammo in the game (we could say I anticipate future changes and play as if ammo were scarce).
Yeah right, multiple people tell you you are unpoilte, but we can't just handle the truth. I think part of it might be the language barrier here, russian players often come off as impoilite in english language discussions. May I suggest "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" and try not to give adjectives to people you argument with.
Like the "You are sick?" you used, this is, even with the "?" at the end, a very agressive reply and what is usually called an ad hominem attack. Concentrate on the arguments not on the discussion opponent. Don't tell your opponent what he is. For example, if someone makes a statement that you don't understand or think is totally wrong on all levels, don't ask him whether he is mad or sick or tell him he is mad (hint: He very likely is not), only ask what that means or tell him where his error is.
If think about it, I would really say that it have to be easy for most beginners. Except for people who are new to computer games generally. I am not passing it off as truth. I think so.
The problem with such low difficulty is that you will have little sense of progress. At the start of the game, you can kill a zombie with literally torch by 3 hits like this, check spoilers in linked post:
In fact, any difficulty becomes very easy sooner or later. The lower the difficulty, the faster it happens. This is a difficulty design problem. My mega graph about this:
At least at the moment AFAIK the developers want the game to get easy in the end to give the player a feeling of having "mastered" the game. It might change somewhat when bandits and a final goal for the game gets added, but for now winning the game means you arrive at a state where you think you have the situation under control
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JCrook1028
New member
That right there is both condescending and dismissive. Right in the answer to you never being condescending and dismissive... If it's truly unintentional then perhaps you need to learn to change your tone in text.
