PC A20 Developer Diary Discussions

honestly i have 90% of time wtf - well honestly i usually don't know if aliasing is turn off or on . this same sitation with raytracing etc - i just see textures and models if they looks good or not . this same situation with fps - 30 or 60 i can't see diffrences. but bad looking textur of water or rock can destroy everything. in l4d2 i'm sometimes tired of flat clothes on ground etc so i spend time to find good mods. but some of them add for example reflections on cars -did i "care" about it? no i focused more on rust. well maybe that's why i care more about zombie variants that lighting


Pretty much this. Smooth edges are nice but overall not super noticeable while playing if it is an either or I’d prefer more zombie variety even if it is the same zombie with different colored clothes and maybe more walk/run profiles so they appear even more different.

 
Speaking of FPS what is the difference. I have heard that 60fps is the sweet spot. I usually have that. I think I locked it somehow so my fps doesn't really go above that and I only notice something when sometimes for some reason it may drop suddenly to 10 or so for a split second then back again. At what point does a higher fps not matter.

I have watched some YTers, (LTT and Jayztwocents mostly) that show them getting really high fps on some games. I mean like couple hundred or more. Does that make a difference? I am not sure but they may have mentioned it mattered to players who play professionally in tournaments but what about to the casual player like me and most of you. Do you need a higher framerate to keep it smoother when you use a higher resolution to keep it smooth?

Just curious. What do you think is a good frame rate, at least for this game so it plays smooth enough.

 
Ok, what then is this, if not the words about what Joel told? ) lol

English is not my first language, but I'm sure this is about food poisoning and unfair punishment of the player )

"The fact is nobody on the team liked it. It was too demoralizing to lose all your food over something random, you didn't really do anything wrong and you got punished and food is very scarce on MP servers so its not the same as SP. Rotten food will damage your health."
wow…I guess he did say those words…

Given that, here are the important differences between spoiled food and attack volumes. 
 

1) Most everyone if not everyone on the team likes attack volumes whereas few liked the vomiting. 
 

2) The number of normal sleeper volumes is not scarce. So experiencing an attack volume doesn’t mean you’ll have a very difficult time getting back to the stealth gameplay you enjoy. 
 

3) Attack volumes do not create a dichotomy between MP and SP like vomiting did with food scarcity. 
 

4) There was no response possible to avoid or mitigate vomiting whereas with attack volumes you can respond openly or stealthily as you desire. 
 

Good find on that quote from Joel. It really shows how these two features are different with the most important one being that the team likes attack volumes  .

 
You really need to learn to read. Lol that just proves I didn't say I run thru the pois guns a blazing.  

My play style is stealth.  I dont use guns unless they have silencers either.

But am I spose to stand on my head or cover 1 eye to see where I wrote I go thru Guns blazing.....
Please stop. You can't even understand the implication of what YOU said, I was not talking about the exact words, but the point is you'd rather run "guns blazing" through AAZs than having the option to stealth through them. Admit it. If you really like playing stealth through and through, you'd WANT AAZs to be changed, but you don't.

You proved you cheat pois. That's fine it is how you get easy loot your play style.  

But you didn't prove anything but your own view. Many play a poi as it is intended and can stealth and then deal with the volumes that are on attack. 

Turn zs off if you can't handle em... 
You're CLEARLY trolling. Good troll, go back under your bridge.

The fact you insist on thinking I'm not able to fight zombies is funny actually, if you really wanna know, I don't really play much with stealth, since as it is now it's broken. I'm just saying it's not good enough to be a main choice in the skill tree. I said that AAZs CAN be avoided if someone knows beforehand where they are, I was NOT saying that's what I do when I play. Also, whatever mechanics you have available in game is NOT cheating. Destroying blocks is part of the game, so unless the devs protect specific rooms with unbreakable blocks, whatever you wanna do to reach your goal it's fair game. And again, it's NOT how I play, but I'd understand if someone did it. 

I normally use blunt weapons and clear ANY POI with minimal problems. But I'm sure in your next reply you'll forget about this and use some snarky comment about how I can't handle combat, lol... Is that how you vent your personal frustration? By trying to belittle other people to appear cool? My gosh, kid, you need to grow FAST, or you'll get kicked hard in the butt when you go out in the real world...  :doh:

 
Also you complain about the abuse but then say you can remember those places and know how to circumvent the mechanic. So where is the abuse in your case?
I'm not talking about the abuse specifically on the player, but more of an abuse over the player choice of a stealth focused build.

Maybe it's not the best word to describe it... What I'm trying to say is that the sneaking mechanics is overridden all the times you enter an AAZ, Even if you run away and some back trying to sneak again, you still experience it EVERY time right now. I want that changed, with a slim chance of being able to use stealth even in those zones.

4) There was no response possible to avoid or mitigate vomiting whereas with attack volumes you can respond openly or stealthily as you desire. 
Sorry, but this is false. If by "respond" you mean running away and coming back sneaking, that's a "false" solution IMO.

The ONLY real problem with AAZs is that you get the same result every single time. If they change that and add a stealth chance I'd be okay with it.

 
Speaking of FPS what is the difference. I have heard that 60fps is the sweet spot. I usually have that. I think I locked it somehow so my fps doesn't really go above that and I only notice something when sometimes for some reason it may drop suddenly to 10 or so for a split second then back again. At what point does a higher fps not matter.

I have watched some YTers, (LTT and Jayztwocents mostly) that show them getting really high fps on some games. I mean like couple hundred or more. Does that make a difference? I am not sure but they may have mentioned it mattered to players who play professionally in tournaments but what about to the casual player like me and most of you. Do you need a higher framerate to keep it smoother when you use a higher resolution to keep it smooth?

Just curious. What do you think is a good frame rate, at least for this game so it plays smooth enough.
generally speaking it depends. fps is frames per second or how many "images" the game renders per second. The higher the fps the smoother and more responsive the game feels. However not all games need a high fps to be considered "smooth" rts game could be run comfortably at 30 fps for example. It also depends on what monitor you have and if you're running at it's higher refresh rates. You can still notice greater response times at framerates above your monitors refresh rate, you won't be seeing the extra frames but the frames that are displayed will have a lower latency because of the higher fps.

That will cause screen tearing however that is another topic, so it's generally best to not run games at a framerate your monitor can't display (except for benchmarking purposes). As a rule of thumb 60fps is a good starting point for the majority of games, over 60 will have a greater importance in games that are fast paced. 7DTD kind of sits in the middle, it has a mix of slow paced gameplay and fast paced gameplay. If you have a monitor that can display more than 60 go for it, it will feel much more responsive especially if you're sensitive to that kind of thing and if you already have a monitor that can do so you may as well make use of it, since presumably you paid a premium for a higher refresh rate display. If you have a 60hz panel that's perfectly fine too, you won't be missing all that much (in 7DTD at least)

The last thing with higher fps gameplay is that you will need not only a more powerful GPU but CPU too, especially for 7DTD since the pc will have to work harder to render the extra frames. With higher settings (but not completely maxed) 100fps should be achievable for most people. If you have a decent setup 150fps should be possible. However when talking about frame rate, context is important, the estimates above are based on the assumption you're using a higher resolution panel than 1440p. If you're running at 1080p you can get away with a much less powerful GPU. The FPS numbers also assume you're using highish settings. You can of course sett everything to the lowest it can go and stare at the sky with 500 fps, but i'm assuming people that want to go higher than 60 want to do so without making the game look like a$$ and the ability to look at the ground occasionally😜

 
Please stop. You can't even understand the implication of what YOU said, I was not talking about the exact words, but the point is you'd rather run "guns blazing" through AAZs than having the option to stealth through them. Admit it. If you really like playing stealth through and through, you'd WANT AAZs to be changed, but you don't.

You're CLEARLY trolling. Good troll, go back under your bridge.

The fact you insist on thinking I'm not able to fight zombies is funny actually, if you really wanna know, I don't really play much with stealth, since as it is now it's broken. I'm just saying it's not good enough to be a main choice in the skill tree. I said that AAZs CAN be avoided if someone knows beforehand where they are, I was NOT saying that's what I do when I play. Also, whatever mechanics you have available in game is NOT cheating. Destroying blocks is part of the game, so unless the devs protect specific rooms with unbreakable blocks, whatever you wanna do to reach your goal it's fair game. And again, it's NOT how I play, but I'd understand if someone did it. 

I normally use blunt weapons and clear ANY POI with minimal problems. But I'm sure in your next reply you'll forget about this and use some snarky comment about how I can't handle combat, lol... Is that how you vent your personal frustration? By trying to belittle other people to appear cool? My gosh, kid, you need to grow FAST, or you'll get kicked hard in the butt when you go out in the real world...  :doh:
Haha yawn no where in any of my posts have i mentioned running and gunning.  Coming across pretty desperate to force your way on others..  twisting words. Changing words to push your agenda..  yawn 

Please stop. You can't even understand the implication of what YOU said, I was not talking about the exact words, but the point is you'd rather run "guns blazing" through AAZs than having the option to stealth through them. Admit it. If you really like playing stealth through and through, you'd WANT AAZs to be changed, but you don't.

You're CLEARLY trolling. Good troll, go back under your bridge.

The fact you insist on thinking I'm not able to fight zombies is funny actually, if you really wanna know, I don't really play much with stealth, since as it is now it's broken. I'm just saying it's not good enough to be a main choice in the skill tree. I said that AAZs CAN be avoided if someone knows beforehand where they are, I was NOT saying that's what I do when I play. Also, whatever mechanics you have available in game is NOT cheating. Destroying blocks is part of the game, so unless the devs protect specific rooms with unbreakable blocks, whatever you wanna do to reach your goal it's fair game. And again, it's NOT how I play, but I'd understand if someone did it. 

I normally use blunt weapons and clear ANY POI with minimal problems. But I'm sure in your next reply you'll forget about this and use some snarky comment about how I can't handle combat, lol... Is that how you vent your personal frustration? By trying to belittle other people to appear cool? My gosh, kid, you need to grow FAST, or you'll get kicked hard in the butt when you go out in the real world...  :doh:
Wait I forgot you are not getting your way so you use the word troll.  

Nah you are not worth anymore time.. keep twisting words tho haha it is a laugh. And yeh good try at trying to offend me your posts have been hilarious 😉 argh yes still not getting your way so in comes the names.. Yawn... boring a 2 yr old can give better insults 🙂 

enjoy your tanty

 
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Sorry, but this is false. If by "respond" you mean running away and coming back sneaking, that's a "false" solution IMO.

The ONLY real problem with AAZs is that you get the same result every single time. If they change that and add a stealth chance I'd be okay with it.
You’ll need to do better at showing how using a classic stealth tactic used in many games is “false”. Just calling it false is not good enough. 
 

Also it isn’t a solution per se because a solution denotes a problem needing to be solved. Auto attack volumes function as designed and intended. There is no problem. 
 

Retreat/Hide/Sneak is a stealth-based tactical response to suddenly active enemies. That’s a fact supported by a plethora of games going all the way back to Metal Gear Solid. 
 

So yes I am definitely talking about response options to AAZ being either open (run and gun) or stealthy (retreat/hide/sneak). 
 

Maybe the way those two tactical responses are created is the same each time but if that is removed then there will only ever be one way in the game. Why are you not concerned with that?  You keep talking about the danger of sameness and yet you are arguing for blatant sameness. 

 
You’ll need to do better at showing how using a classic stealth tactic used in many games is “false”. Just calling it false is not good enough. 
Well, as I said, the main difference is that in 7D2D you're always going to fail a stealth check in AAZs.

I thought it was evident I was speaking about that.

Maybe the way those two tactical responses are created is the same each time but if that is removed then there will only ever be one way in the game. Why are you not concerned with that?  You keep talking about the danger of sameness and yet you are arguing for blatant sameness. 
Again, nobody is asking to remove AAZs, I'm just asking for them to be integrated with the same stealth mechanics that is already used in the rest of the game.

Will this ruin the game for other players? No. They can still go through AAZs the same way as today.

Will stealth players be able to automatically skip AAZs? No. There will always be a good chance you still wake up the sleepers.

So, I don't understand what your objection really is. The answer is in the details of my explanation, but both you and stallionsden just see the general argument, which you don't agree with, and then reply ignoring the important details I pointed out. Now, I can forget about that troll/clown, because he's evidently just trying to win the argument, but frankly I was expecting much more from you.  :ohwell:

 
Pretty much this. Smooth edges are nice but overall not super noticeable while playing if it is an either or I’d prefer more zombie variety even if it is the same zombie with different colored clothes and maybe more walk/run profiles so they appear even more different.
yeah honestly i surrfer a lot because of that :(

Speaking of FPS what is the difference. I have heard that 60fps is the sweet spot. I usually have that. I think I locked it somehow so my fps doesn't really go above that and I only notice something when sometimes for some reason it may drop suddenly to 10 or so for a split second then back again. At what point does a higher fps not matter.

I have watched some YTers, (LTT and Jayztwocents mostly) that show them getting really high fps on some games. I mean like couple hundred or more. Does that make a difference? I am not sure but they may have mentioned it mattered to players who play professionally in tournaments but what about to the casual player like me and most of you. Do you need a higher framerate to keep it smoother when you use a higher resolution to keep it smooth?

Just curious. What do you think is a good frame rate, at least for this game so it plays smooth enough.
Yeah so this "fanatic" about 60 is annoying me - honestly i played even 24 some games and it was good enough. well i honestly hate modern fps like warzone fortinte because the streamers yt etc but i hope devs will more and more be focues about looks - you know bigger maps , better textures more enemies on screen that 60 fps . 30 was honestly good enough

generally speaking it depends. fps is frames per second or how many "images" the game renders per second. The higher the fps the smoother and more responsive the game feels. However not all games need a high fps to be considered "smooth" rts game could be run comfortably at 30 fps for example. It also depends on what monitor you have and if you're running at it's higher refresh rates. You can still notice greater response times at framerates above your monitors refresh rate, you won't be seeing the extra frames but the frames that are displayed will have a lower latency because of the higher fps.

That will cause screen tearing however that is another topic, so it's generally best to not run games at a framerate your monitor can't display (except for benchmarking purposes). As a rule of thumb 60fps is a good starting point for the majority of games, over 60 will have a greater importance in games that are fast paced. 7DTD kind of sits in the middle, it has a mix of slow paced gameplay and fast paced gameplay. If you have a monitor that can display more than 60 go for it, it will feel much more responsive especially if you're sensitive to that kind of thing and if you already have a monitor that can do so you may as well make use of it, since presumably you paid a premium for a higher refresh rate display. If you have a 60hz panel that's perfectly fine too, you won't be missing all that much (in 7DTD at least)

The last thing with higher fps gameplay is that you will need not only a more powerful GPU but CPU too, especially for 7DTD since the pc will have to work harder to render the extra frames. With higher settings (but not completely maxed) 100fps should be achievable for most people. If you have a decent setup 150fps should be possible. However when talking about frame rate, context is important, the estimates above are based on the assumption you're using a higher resolution panel than 1440p. If you're running at 1080p you can get away with a much less powerful GPU. The FPS numbers also assume you're using highish settings. You can of course sett everything to the lowest it can go and stare at the sky with 500 fps, but i'm assuming people that want to go higher than 60 want to do so without making the game look like a$$ and the ability to look at the ground occasionally😜
Well i'm think graphic is more important that frames and i hate when streamers play on warzone etc and have 100 fps but graphic looks terrible. why ? because people watch them so devs will be more focused about  at least 60 fps that good graphic. well i played a lot in mw 2 , dod and it was good. now playing in modern pvp is nightmare

 
Well, as I said, the main difference is that in 7D2D you're always going to fail a stealth check in AAZs.

I thought it was evident I was speaking about that.


And as I've said countless times, I'm not against enhancing AAZ with visual cues that show a reason why the zombies woke which wasn't your fault, making them randomly happen, or making it a response to a failed stealth check. I have zero problem with that. My objection is to the idea that AAZ are bad design and that they ruin stealth or invalidate points spent on stealth. Even in their current form, I disagree with that whole premise. This is not a stealth game. It has an agility branch with one aspect being stealth skills that can enhance what the player can already do natively without spending any perk points. The point is to explore a POI and there are a number of tactical choices the player can make as they do that. Looting a POI without a single enemy ever waking up is not one of the design goals even if it may be a personal player goal. But then that is like playing a racing sim and having a personal goal of walking around the entire track and then saying the game is poorly designed because the developers don't allow that to happen even though their goal was always to have players in cars racing and not for players to go for a stroll.

So I'm all in for your idea to add a stealth check to the game and make that check harder to pass in some zones and easier in others. But that won't satisfy people who be upset everytime the check fails. Most likely the stealth check won't be visible anyway so players will still get mad that the room "inexplicably" woke up. They certainly won't blame their own failure..lol

Again, nobody is asking to remove AAZs


Here is where you are very very wrong. There are a few vociferous people in this forum who are calling for exactly that. They want 100% removal and no halfway compromise will satisfy them. In this very thread there are examples of people saying that AAZ should not exist at all.

I'm just asking for them to be integrated with the same stealth mechanics that is already used in the rest of the game.


Technically, they already are consistent with how the rest of the game works. There currently are zero stealth checks as in d20 style checks. It is all trigger based. If you step on the trash at a certain distance it triggers wake up. If you jump off that ledge within a certain distance it triggers. There are no probability rolls modified by your perks. There is a distance at which a zombie can see you when it is dark. If you are within that range they will see you. There is no probability roll. If you are outside the range they will not see you. The perks simply adjust the ranges and the triggers and the duration of time the zombies target you.

I have a feeling that if the Pimps changed from simple triggers to probability rolls it would just anger the people who want full control to remain in their own hands even more. Can you imagine the rage from someone who feels like they did everything right but then a probability roll screwed them over anyway? But I'm still on board with it since I prefer chance creating hairy situations that I must react to. I think the player being able to control every aspect of their environment is the more boring gameplay. So, yeah. Probability rolls vs stealth skills. Let's do it.

So, I don't understand what your objection really is. The answer is in the details of my explanation, but both you and stallionsden just see the general argument, which you don't agree with, and then reply ignoring the important details I pointed out. Now, I can forget about that troll/clown, because he's evidently just trying to win the argument, but frankly I was expecting much more from you. 


There are times when I respond to you specifically because I disagree with some specific aspect of what you wrote-- as in the idea that retreat-hide-emerge is some sort of false tactic. But most of the time I am responding to the general group who is against AAZ and want them removed and see them as stealth destroyers instead of stealth game changers. So maybe when I am speaking in general terms you think I'm still talking to you personally? <shrug> You think I'm a puppet bot of the developers anyway so I really don't care what you expect of me. Your assumptions and expectations are skewed.

 
Well, as I said, the main difference is that in 7D2D you're always going to fail a stealth check in AAZs.

I thought it was evident I was speaking about that.

Again, nobody is asking to remove AAZs, I'm just asking for them to be integrated with the same stealth mechanics that is already used in the rest of the game.

Will this ruin the game for other players? No. They can still go through AAZs the same way as today.

Will stealth players be able to automatically skip AAZs? No. There will always be a good chance you still wake up the sleepers.

So, I don't understand what your objection really is. The answer is in the details of my explanation, but both you and stallionsden just see the general argument, which you don't agree with, and then reply ignoring the important details I pointed out. Now, I can forget about that troll/clown, because he's evidently just trying to win the argument, but frankly I was expecting much more from you.  :ohwell:


And as I've said countless times, I'm not against enhancing AAZ with visual cues that show a reason why the zombies woke which wasn't your fault, making them randomly happen, or making it a response to a failed stealth check. I have zero problem with that. My objection is to the idea that AAZ are bad design and that they ruin stealth or invalidate points spent on stealth. Even in their current form, I disagree with that whole premise. This is not a stealth game. It has an agility branch with one aspect being stealth skills that can enhance what the player can already do natively without spending any perk points. The point is to explore a POI and there are a number of tactical choices the player can make as they do that. Looting a POI without a single enemy ever waking up is not one of the design goals even if it may be a personal player goal. But then that is like playing a racing sim and having a personal goal of walking around the entire track and then saying the game is poorly designed because the developers don't allow that to happen even though their goal was always to have players in cars racing and not for players to go for a stroll.

So I'm all in for your idea to add a stealth check to the game and make that check harder to pass in some zones and easier in others. But that won't satisfy people who be upset everytime the check fails. Most likely the stealth check won't be visible anyway so players will still get mad that the room "inexplicably" woke up. They certainly won't blame their own failure..lol

Here is where you are very very wrong. There are a few vociferous people in this forum who are calling for exactly that. They want 100% removal and no halfway compromise will satisfy them. In this very thread there are examples of people saying that AAZ should not exist at all.

Technically, they already are consistent with how the rest of the game works. There currently are zero stealth checks as in d20 style checks. It is all trigger based. If you step on the trash at a certain distance it triggers wake up. If you jump off that ledge within a certain distance it triggers. There are no probability rolls modified by your perks. There is a distance at which a zombie can see you when it is dark. If you are within that range they will see you. There is no probability roll. If you are outside the range they will not see you. The perks simply adjust the ranges and the triggers and the duration of time the zombies target you.

I have a feeling that if the Pimps changed from simple triggers to probability rolls it would just anger the people who want full control to remain in their own hands even more. Can you imagine the rage from someone who feels like they did everything right but then a probability roll screwed them over anyway? But I'm still on board with it since I prefer chance creating hairy situations that I must react to. I think the player being able to control every aspect of their environment is the more boring gameplay. So, yeah. Probability rolls vs stealth skills. Let's do it.

There are times when I respond to you specifically because I disagree with some specific aspect of what you wrote-- as in the idea that retreat-hide-emerge is some sort of false tactic. But most of the time I am responding to the general group who is against AAZ and want them removed and see them as stealth destroyers instead of stealth game changers. So maybe when I am speaking in general terms you think I'm still talking to you personally? <shrug> You think I'm a puppet bot of the developers anyway so I really don't care what you expect of me. Your assumptions and expectations are skewed.
honestly you both :  i think there is quiet good solution of this problem - add "careful" type of zombie - he just "stay" on wall and ceiling . he start scream when he saw you so it can work like AAZ but with "real reason " why zombie is alerted. So in dunno 3 tier of perk you have 10 sec before they scream and alert the rest of zombie.  maybe this ins not perfect idea but compromise bettwen no AAZ and AAZ

 
4) There was no response possible to avoid or mitigate vomiting whereas with attack volumes you can respond openly or stealthily as you desire. 
You could have avoided poisoning if you took a green pill before meals) (I'm not sure if this was intended, but it always worked with me)

 
You could have avoided poisoning if you took a green pill before meals) (I'm not sure if this was intended, but it always worked with me)
Yeah resist disease covered food poisoning. Also covers dysentery, for those times you want to eat 50 sham sandwiches and wash it down with toilet water :p

 
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Well i'm think graphic is more important that frames and i hate when streamers play on warzone etc and have 100 fps but graphic looks terrible. why ? because people watch them so devs will be more focused about  at least 60 fps that good graphic. well i played a lot in mw 2 , dod and it was good. now playing in modern pvp is nightmare
Depends on the game, high fps also has a competitive advantage since your eye balls see more recent frames. So in a situation where 2 players come to a corner and both come into view of each other at the same time, the player with the higher framerate will see a couple of frames showing the other player first. It's not always a situation like that tho it was just an example, even in that situation a couple frames is literally the blink of an eye. So if your reaction time is slow if doesn't really do anything for you. But that is why games like warzone see players running higher frame rates, pretty much all competitive games are designed to be easy to run at high frame rates.

for singleplayer or coop games most people usually just turn up the eye candy in favour of visuals over frame rate. It just depends what type of game it is that decides what the devs choose to make a priority. I think that absolute bare minimum in general needs to be 24-30 fps. 24fps has been a standard in the tv and movie industry for donkeys. It works fine there because it's a static view, you don't control the camera so the motion is perceived as smooth to the eyes. For games 24 is pretty rough, you could technically get away with it, but it would really suck. Under that it impacts you're ability to control the game and it becomes unplayable.

 
maybe this ins not perfect idea but compromise bettwen no AAZ and AAZ
Sure!  I’m all for the myriad compromise ideas. 
 

Now go convince the “no AAZ” crowd to accept a compromise that would still result in them sometimes not being able to loot an entire POI without waking up a single zombie. 😀

 
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