PC A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[meganoth]

INT’s progression perks are genuinely fantastic but its associated weapons are too reliant on the perks to be consistently useful. You’re best served by trying to get a high quality weapon from another perk line via the traders, which is something no other stat has to do.

The issue isn’t that INT doesn’t have access to good weapons, since anyone can use any weapon they obviously do, the issue is that if the INT player wants to focus on their associated weapons over other perk’s weapons, they will be putting themselves at a disadvantage in comparison.

To paraphrase: "IF" the INT players wants to play this attribute like he plays most other attributes they will be putting themselves at a disadvantage. So my conclusion is players should not do that. They have to play into the strengths of their class aka attribute not into their weakness. This is the way in almost every game I know of.

The power allocation for the turrets and the stun baton should be shifted back towards the base weapons and away from the perks so that INT players can use them more effectively earlier and so that non-INT players have a reason to pay attention to them.

I don't think it helps the INT player to diminish the power of his own perks. First you should find out if there is a problem for the INT player when he is playing optimally. Then find out if that problem is at the start or end of the game. If at the start then upgrading the base power might be applicable, otherwise strengthening the higher levels of the perk should be done.

Now does the int-player have problems at start? I don't think so:

1) As dscobral explained the INT player gets the fastest progression and is saving lots of time because of better mobility.

2) As perk points are rare at start other attributes are still only lowly perked into their weapon. So the difference to the unperked non-INT weapon the INT player would normally use in addition to turret is rather low (10-30%).

3) The pusher turret is the single most effective item in the game for horde nights and while still very useful unperked the INT player definitely  gets more out of it.

INT is clearly designed to be centered on progression at the cost of combat capabilities and self-sufficiency, which is a really interesting playstyle but i think the weapons are still undertuned even with the reduced focus on fighting taken into account.

Additionally remember that with the further refinement of the gamestage mechanics, the traders are going to be less powerful and as a result INT will have substantially reduced ability to get powerful gear quickly. So while INT maybe overpowered now, that may completely change with A20 and as such should be rebalanced with the understanding that it is benefiting from a temporary situation.

The trader respec will hurt the INT player, but also give him a further advantage: While everyone will be running around with worse weapons at the start of the game, a lvl1 AK for example will still mow down a wandering horde of zombies in a few seconds. The limiting factor is ammunition and buying and questing for ammo is again a strength of the INT player.

 

[BFT2020]

Now does the int-player have problems at start? I don't think so:

1) As dscobral explained the INT player gets the fastest progression and is saving lots of time because of better mobility.

2) As perk points are rare at start other attributes are still only lowly perked into their weapon. So the difference to the unperked non-INT weapon the INT player would normally use in addition to turret is rather low (10-30%).

3) The pusher turret is the single most effective item in the game for horde nights and while still very useful unperked the INT player definitely  gets more out of it.

The only thing I disagree with (but they are addressing in Alpha 20) is that the Int tree has the only melee weapon you can perk into at the beginning, but not obtainable if the trader doesn't have it.  Every other tree melee weapon you can put points in at after the tutorial quests are completed and craft / use a Q2 melee weapon at the beginning.

With the Pipe baton coming in Alpha 20, that takes care of that.

Otherwise, I am perfectly happy that spec'ing purely into the Int tree means my weakness is my combat skills until I get my hands on turrets.

The Perception tree is decent as well. A bit of Strength is a nice-to-have so you can dig, open those crates and get cobblestone/cement faster, or if you are really unlucky getting that auger from the trader, but definitely nothing worth going above Str 3 (2 + cigar). Fortitude has nothing useful, and Agility is pretty much devoid of anything unrelated to combat except for Parkour, and Parkour is another fun-but-unnecessary perk.

This really only applies to vanilla 7D2D (and I have no issues with that).  I am playing a mod right now (Just Die Already) where perking up higher in those trees are actually useful.  For example, the mod nerfs farming and food is an issue a lot longer into the game than vanilla is.  Throw in significant less loot than vanilla, being able to perk into Lvl3 living off the land drastically reduces the cost of farm plots and open up the ability to craft seeds.

 

[BFT2020]

Well someone can have opinion about something and don't doing this - i think machete is useless   so i don't use  (logical) 

That's all fine, but when opinions are requests to change the item or the perk or the playstyle, it does make a difference.

I love the Knife perks and love the weapons.  I may also be one of the few that do go from Bone to Iron to Machete.  I don't find any of them useless, but I am a player that doesn't just look for the strengths of builds / weapons / items; I love the weaknesses that they have, or the choices I have to make.

I love builds that are weak in combat because if I can make it to day 100+ using hard settings or a mod that ramps up the difficulty, I know it is because of the effort I made to overcome the weaknesses; not because something is so OP I can just stand there and hit the attack button over and over again.

 

[Matt115]

That's all fine, but when opinions are requests to change the item or the perk or the playstyle, it does make a difference.

I love the Knife perks and love the weapons.  I may also be one of the few that do go from Bone to Iron to Machete.  I don't find any of them useless, but I am a player that doesn't just look for the strengths of builds / weapons / items; I love the weaknesses that they have, or the choices I have to make.

I love builds that are weak in combat because if I can make it to day 100+ using hard settings or a mod that ramps up the difficulty, I know it is because of the effort I made to overcome the weaknesses; not because something is so OP I can just stand there and hit the attack button over and over again.

Well in cod were situation like : most players was using m16 , ak74 aug , gallo 12 and  tundra. So people wanted to rebalance it to change meta - why using type 63 when m16 have better ttk? . Well now 7dtd is constructed more into "rambo" that "sneaky " way .  In my opinion 7dtd should support more sneaky way at least it was until A20 because it changing into rage 2 and i hate it xd . 

Well machete was a example - you loves knifes right? but better ttk will be for slendhammer so it need rebalance or it will be like cod when - most players used this same bulid because it was the best

 

[BFT2020]

Well in cod were situation like : most players was using m16 , ak74 aug , gallo 12 and  tundra. So people wanted to rebalance it to change meta - why using type 63 when m16 have better ttk? . Well now 7dtd is constructed more into "rambo" that "sneaky " way .  In my opinion 7dtd should support more sneaky way at least it was until A20 because it changing into rage 2 and i hate it xd . 

Well machete was a example - you loves knifes right? but better ttk will be for slendhammer so it need rebalance or it will be like cod when - most players used this same bulid because it was the best

Does it matter if 90% of the players decide just to use the sledgehammer?  If that is all they want to use, then that is their choice, and they are the ones limiting themselves out of the enjoyment of using something that is not as OP as the strength melee weapons.

Rambo method is only true if that is your choice.  There are a lot of us in the background (though I might be one of the most vocal right now) that play the game in other ways than "Rambo".  IMHO, I think the reason people go the Rambo route is that it is the easiest way to play the game, not that it is the only way to play the game.  And I think that some people see dying in the game as a failure while there are those of us that like the fact that our builds did not last as long as we wanted it to.  It's that type of feedback that pushes us to re-examined how we played it the last time and what we need to do better the next time.  I don't need machetes to be rebalanced in order to enjoy playing with them.  If everything is the same balance, where is the enjoyment in that?

This game is not like COD where it is simply two teams squaring off against one another trying to kill each other.  This game is so much more.  Comparing items or game mechanics of 7D2D to a FPS is not equivalent and should not be the bar we are setting for this game.  7D2D is a survival, horror, crafting, building type of game.  It's those various elements mixed together that makes 7D2D the game that it is.  COD, Battfefield, and other games like those are two are just FPS and have different game mechanics that fit the FPS game genre.

 

[Matt115]

Does it matter if 90% of the players decide just to use the sledgehammer?  If that is all they want to use, then that is their choice, and they are the ones limiting themselves out of the enjoyment of using something that is not as OP as the strength melee weapons.

Rambo method is only true if that is your choice.  There are a lot of us in the background (though I might be one of the most vocal right now) that play the game in other ways than "Rambo".  IMHO, I think the reason people go the Rambo route is that it is the easiest way to play the game, not that it is the only way to play the game.  And I think that some people see dying in the game as a failure while there are those of us that like the fact that our builds did not last as long as we wanted it to.  It's that type of feedback that pushes us to re-examined how we played it the last time and what we need to do better the next time.  I don't need machetes to be rebalanced in order to enjoy playing with them.  If everything is the same balance, where is the enjoyment in that?

This game is not like COD where it is simply two teams squaring off against one another trying to kill each other.  This game is so much more.  Comparing items or game mechanics of 7D2D to a FPS is not equivalent and should not be the bar we are setting for this game.  7D2D is a survival, horror, crafting, building type of game.  It's those various elements mixed together that makes 7D2D the game that it is.  COD, Battfefield, and other games like those are two are just FPS and have different game mechanics that fit the FPS game genre.

Well is PVP still right?  that's way for example conan or rust have rebalance sometimes . Well  we don't have statitic but for sure more people using sledhammer that machete .  So yeah it could be but it pvp too . So i see two solutions : balance as PVP with  elements of E ( conan ) or PVE with elements of PVP ( the forest ) 

 

[dcsobral]

@faatal why aren't there anymore wandering hordes? That really really made the game a lot of fun. I remember in one of my first playthroughs and it was night and I got outside my base and a RUNNING horde of zombies came towards me and I was scared as heck but it was so cool to also encounter wandering hordes it made it also a challenge.

They are still there. Or do you mean a20? I didn't see any indication they were going to be removed.

 

[Fanatical_Meat]

@faatal why aren't there anymore wandering hordes? That really really made the game a lot of fun. I remember in one of my first playthroughs and it was night and I got outside my base and a RUNNING horde of zombies came towards me and I was scared as heck but it was so cool to also encounter wandering hordes it made it also a challenge.

Yeah friend & I had an encounter on the “highway of death” we ran into an enormous wandering horde. So many we built a small bunker to shot out at them.

Good times, it just never stopped. This is before the screamers not sure which alpha 

 

[ShellHead]

I always group with my co-players so I get the XP popup too. Not that I want it. Now with lots of zombies attributing it to which zombie died actually might be difficult.

Yeah, though i think in most situations not knowing exactly what zed got killed by who wouldn’t mess up anyone too badly.

If we ignore the popup then I don't see why that problem would be limited to stun baton. Other weapons have knockdown too. And there still is the effect that zombies can go down when at low health but not dead (or am I imagining things?). Death through stun baton is sometimes even more obvious because dead zombies stop flashing immediately.

My understanding of the problem was that it wasn’t the knockdown itself that was at issue but rather zeds getting flung back into the horde via the repulser mod for the baton, which made them easy to lose track of when things got hectic. Knockdown from pretty much every other source is much easier to keep track of, the only exception might be the AR book bonus but that still essentially boils down to “keep shooting in that direction” so i doubt that would trip anyone up.

as an aside, i really like the idea of zeds getting knocked down when critically injured to trick players into thinking they’re dead, i hope that is actually a mechanic.

 

[Burrfly]

They are still there. Or do you mean a20? I didn't see any indication they were going to be removed.

Wait, are there? I can't remember them after a16 was the last time? Maybe I'm completely wrong, then my bad

 

[meganoth]

Wait, are there? I can't remember them after a16 was the last time? Maybe I'm completely wrong, then my bad

Because of performance problems they were reduced in frequency and size, but they are still there. This is supposed to get better again with further optimizations and maybe a better event system

 

[meganoth]

Yeah, though i think in most situations not knowing exactly what zed got killed by who wouldn’t mess up anyone too badly.

What I meant is when two zombies are down and you see an XP pop-up. You won't know which one of the two is the dead one because of the shared popup.

My understanding of the problem was that it wasn’t the knockdown itself that was at issue but rather zeds getting flung back into the horde via the repulser mod for the baton, which made them easy to lose track of when things got hectic. Knockdown from pretty much every other source is much easier to keep track of, the only exception might be the AR book bonus but that still essentially boils down to “keep shooting in that direction” so i doubt that would trip anyone up.

As long as you have a closed front the zombies are always pushed away so I don't see a problem there. If it is a chaotic mingling you have enough enemies to hit and get hit by anyway so I prefer a zombie being down for a moment so I can hit the others. In such a mingling I have to constantly watch my back anyway as zombies could come from all sides. 

as an aside, i really like the idea of zeds getting knocked down when critically injured to trick players into thinking they’re dead, i hope that is actually a mechanic.

It is. Just asked a co-player and he is sure as well.

 

[jorbascrumps]

Wait, are there? I can't remember them after a16 was the last time? Maybe I'm completely wrong, then my bad

Oh yea, they are still around. My friends and I got wrecked by one the other day playing every difficulty setting maxed. It was terrifying to have them run up on us.

 

[Khalagar]

Otherwise, I am perfectly happy that spec'ing purely into the Int tree means my weakness is my combat skills until I get my hands on turrets.

The issue is more that even after speccing into it, you are still weak compared to the alternatives.  I tested it with a Shotgun messiah. Clearing it using melee + Junk Turrets used over 10,000 iron worth of junk turret ammo. Clearing it using an autoshotgun used like 100 shotgun shells, and I got more than that  back from clearing it, and the shotgun clear was like 3 times faster because I didn't have the turret set up time etc

It's the same issue as the "an unperked club is better than a fully perked and kitted out stun baton" thing. Half of it is just that shotgun and club are OP, but even comparing to an M60 and knuckles or something, the int tree just falls behind resource investment to return on investment wise. The junk turret requires 10+ minutes of mining iron  and an entire perk line + an entire magazine line + double the resources to run two junk turrets + all of the mining perks which means it needs strength investement too etc, just to actually be usable. A shotgun or m60 build just needs the attribute + gun skill and half the mods of a dual junk turret build

Crafting skills have been useless for a few alpha now where it's only good for rushing items the first week and then useless after because you need parts to craft stuff, can't even craft the tier 6 version, you get books that teach you the recipes for free, and you can just buy the workbenches instead of wasting skill points on it. Not even getting into the "Build all your workbenches and then take a respec potion to put the points somewhere else" levels of try hard min maxing. There's no real reason to craft anything since like A17 or which ever added quest rewards. You are way better off just taking the better quest reward perk and spamming quests to get quality 6 gear way faster and easier than a crafting build can, especially since quests give dukes and exp etc too on top of the rewards

I don't think int is trash, but it's just in an awkward spot like agility where you can 100% easily play the game without ever touching the entire perk line or weapons from it and you'd . . . probably be an optimal meta build honestly. Better Barter and the better rewards perk are top tier perks, but the rest of Int not so much, just like Parkour being an amazing perk but it's not worth wasting points on the Agility tree for because the weapons are terrible and the other perks aren't worth it

 

[BFT2020]

Well is PVP still right?  that's way for example conan or rust have rebalance sometimes . Well  we don't have statitic but for sure more people using sledhammer that machete .  So yeah it could be but it pvp too . So i see two solutions : balance as PVP with  elements of E ( conan ) or PVE with elements of PVP ( the forest ) 

No the game is geared towards PvE.  Sure you can play PvP if you want to, but that is not the intent of this game when TFP first set out to create and develop 7D2D

 

[Horatio Chachi]

@faatal why aren't there anymore wandering hordes? That really really made the game a lot of fun. I remember in one of my first playthroughs and it was night and I got outside my base and a RUNNING horde of zombies came towards me and I was scared as heck but it was so cool to also encounter wandering hordes it made it also a challenge.

IIRC there was a change in the design direction of the game some years ago, devs decided to go for more of a quality>quantity approach.

If you're really fiending for that kind of gameplay, there's a modpack called Darkness Falls that adds a lot of what you're looking for.

 

[Matt115]

No the game is geared towards PvE.  Sure you can play PvP if you want to, but that is not the intent of this game when TFP first set out to create and develop 7D2D

If they choose to be PVE that's mean on coop/single balance will be good but PVP will be unbalance

 

[meganoth]

The issue is more that even after speccing into it, you are still weak compared to the alternatives.  I tested it with a Shotgun messiah. Clearing it using melee + Junk Turrets used over 10,000 iron worth of junk turret ammo. Clearing it using an autoshotgun used like 100 shotgun shells, and I got more than that  back from clearing it, and the shotgun clear was like 3 times faster because I didn't have the turret set up time etc

It's the same issue as the "an unperked club is better than a fully perked and kitted out stun baton" thing. Half of it is just that shotgun and club are OP, but even comparing to an M60 and knuckles or something, the int tree just falls behind resource investment to return on investment wise.

Why do you always pick Fortitude as second comparison and act as if that wasn't a combat heavy OP class just like strength? Compare INT to agility or perception and you would actually compare attributes with a smaller focus on combat. Actually INT is the attribute with the highest utility focus and therefore the lowest combat focus. So it is to be expected that using only INT weapons creates the lowest damage output.

The junk turret requires 10+ minutes of mining iron  and an entire perk line + an entire magazine line + double the resources to run two junk turrets + all of the mining perks which means it needs strength investement too etc, just to actually be usable. A shotgun or m60 build just needs the attribute + gun skill and half the mods of a dual junk turret build

Make a different test:

Just take a shotgun with you and the ammo you got out of a previous quest or bought at the trader to the POI and use all the shotgun ammo you have and find in the factory to shoot at zombies groups and only use the baton for single zombies.  Keep 9mm and 7.62 ammo you find for horde night.

I'm sure you will get out with much much less turret ammo expended and will be through much faster. You also found the best use for the shotgun ammo.

Crafting skills have been useless for a few alpha now where it's only good for rushing items the first week and then useless after because you need parts to craft stuff, can't even craft the tier 6 version, you get books that teach you the recipes for free, and you can just buy the workbenches instead of wasting skill points on it. Not even getting into the "Build all your workbenches and then take a respec potion to put the points somewhere else" levels of try hard min maxing. There's no real reason to craft anything since like A17 or which ever added quest rewards. You are way better off just taking the better quest reward perk and spamming quests to get quality 6 gear way faster and easier than a crafting build can, especially since quests give dukes and exp etc too on top of the rewards

I don't think int is trash, but it's just in an awkward spot like agility where you can 100% easily play the game without ever touching the entire perk line or weapons from it and you'd . . . probably be an optimal meta build honestly. Better Barter and the better rewards perk are top tier perks, but the rest of Int not so much, just like Parkour being an amazing perk but it's not worth wasting points on the Agility tree for because the weapons are terrible and the other perks aren't worth it

Definitely the trader is OP for experienced players. Finding the right stuff is easy for experienced players. BUT vanilla is for the inexperienced player who will NOT get workstations and all the recipes ready by day 7-10. If you want a balanced game as an experienced player you have to turn down loot frequency to compensate for all the knowledge how to get at stuff.

You pointed me to one omission in the game though: The trader never offers turret ammo as quest reward and (I may be wrong here) doesn't sell it, and you don't find it anywhere. I think that should be changed as it isn't logical that the INT player should need to be toiling in the mines more often than a miner himself.

 

[NukemDed]

personally i decide what sort of game i want to play before i start. current is to build a base that can defend itself without my help.

therefore i chose strength first, for mining, straight to lvl7 to max miner and mother. sex rex and masterchef are nice qol gate openers. then int lvl 10 to guarantee steel and the crafting efficiency and turrets to get 2 going at once and of course a motor bike. im level 55 ish now and dont have anything i feel i NEED to perk into.

i have started on the rifles and penetrator as that really sorts them out if you build kill corridors ( with sledges to knock them off the walkway down to bedrock where they have to climb up past heaps of smg turrets ha ha.

any way to my point....

skill trees work well together if you have a goal in mind. you are your own team i suppose

and ill say it again, weapons work just fine without perks. just takes a few more shots is all.

and for the zds lying down topic that's also going on, double tap. i shoot lots of zombies lying down and i also shoot a lot of dead zombies, and i dont often get surprised... actually i mèlee single normals, and swpa to guns only if it looks dicey. steel axe one shots most low level zds.

and thankfully there are plenty of wandering hordes still. smg turrets normally let me know its play time ( if i can get there in time.)

and shot gun turrets are awsome for keeping vultures off the roof on horde nights. 

god this game is awesome

 

[SxR]

Will the screamer and the wight be updated or removed?

I think Screamer was already updated. Unless you mean a third (?) itiration?