PC A18.1 (b6) Changes: Mining iron ore yields iron?!?

You are right. They should have added quotation marks around "bacon." It's the damn apocalypse. You don't think you are going to make "bacon" and eggs out of whatever meat you have at hand?

They also should make you have to come back to the forge and clean out the slag before your metal can be refined. The forge gets gummed up over time and will stop working if you don't clean it. Ah, the satisfaction of realism.

There's enough idiocy in the world. You want to make more of it? It's why I used the word "butthurt" earlier. If you don't like the moniker, then don't deserve it.
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That's a stretch. Just because some companies out there think it's OK to consider their turkey product bacon, doesn't mean it is. Bacon is bacon, you can't tell any bacon lover otherwise.

The argument of displaying how bad the addition of some hypothetical, boring steps into a system is equivalent to the exaggerating arguments you claim to be butthurt reactions (such as stone -> concrete)

I wouldn't so much call it something I do to increase idiocy, but more so to point out that people who use the word "butthurt" are typically those who are feeling more emotional about some subject than those accused of being butthurt.

 
That's a stretch. Just because some companies out there think it's OK to consider their turkey product bacon, doesn't mean it is. Bacon is bacon, you can't tell any bacon lover otherwise.
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It's the apocalypse, and a TFP apocalypse at that. It's wholly in line with "Sham Chowder." Of course it isn't real bacon, and nobody is claiming otherwise. Even when civilization breaks down, humans will continue to use some of the words and references from before to refer to things which are not quite the same anymore.

The argument of displaying how bad the addition of some hypothetical, boring steps into a system is equivalent to the exaggerating arguments you claim to be butthurt reactions (such as stone -> concrete)
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Why don't you walk me through how those are equivalent? It isn't like I compressed an entire process down to nothing. I added one additional step which makes sense according to realism.

I wouldn't so much call it something I do to increase idiocy, but more so to point out that people who use the word "butthurt" are typically those who are feeling more emotional about some subject than those accused of being butthurt.
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Yeah, "it's the end of the world and TFP are destroying the game that I know and love" isn't emotional at all. ;)

 
Someone started this topic with concerns over the change and to express their dislike for it. I am expressing that I understand the change, because on its own, it is very logical and reasonable. I think the simplification trend is going too far, so in some way, sure you could say I am against this change.

I came in here to express that. Over the past few alphas, some people have been complaining that the game is starting to lean too much towards a looter/shooter. I've always been all right with that. Add more content to make it more looter/shooter... but don't take away from crafting, mining, survival, horde defense, and just about every other aspect in this game that I and so many people enjoy. I'm looking at the bigger picture, and my contribution to this thread is to express my opinion that the trend has gone far enough.

However, some people come in here, and threads like these, just to be condescending and use derogatory terminology against people with opinions that do not align with their own. If these people already have what they want, why the need to act in such an aggressive way? It is equivalent to in real life pointing and laughing in someone's face because you got your way and they didn't. "Oh, you lost your smelting, you gonna cry? You a little baby, gonna cry over an icon?" It's disgraceful.

 
The irony in your statement is killing me. Thanks for the chuckle.
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The irony? I haven't even made up my mind one way or the other. I haven't even played A18 yet. But reading arguments for and against I can't help but think that the side that's against the change is more *reasonable* as they rarely rely on "you are wrong" argument and instead provide, you know, *reasons* for not liking the change.

 
They went the wrong way with this. Mining should involve some refinement.
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Yes, mining does involve refinement if you want to do anything useful.

You need iron/steel bars to craft anything interesting.

You can not build with rebar / or freshly mined iron because... both types of frames are only made in a forge.

There you go. Problem solved. =P

Also: Page 9? That's awesome. Oh, the good old days when wood was made more granular and players would lose their ♥♥♥♥ over the no-change. =P

 
Someone started this topic with concerns over the change and to express their dislike for it. I am expressing that I understand the change, because on its own, it is very logical and reasonable. I think the simplification trend is going too far, so in some way, sure you could say I am against this change.I came in here to express that. Over the past few alphas, some people have been complaining that the game is starting to lean too much towards a looter/shooter. I've always been all right with that. Add more content to make it more looter/shooter... but don't take away from crafting, mining, survival, horde defense, and just about every other aspect in this game that I and so many people enjoy. I'm looking at the bigger picture, and my contribution to this thread is to express my opinion that the trend has gone far enough.

However, some people come in here, and threads like these, just to be condescending and use derogatory terminology against people with opinions that do not align with their own. If these people already have what they want, why the need to act in such an aggressive way? It is equivalent to in real life pointing and laughing in someone's face because you got your way and they didn't. "Oh, you lost your smelting, you gonna cry? You a little baby, gonna cry over an icon?" It's disgraceful.
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I agree with you 100%.

Don't worry about the trolls. Ignore them and they return to the comfort of the dark under their bridge. :smile-new:

Loc

 
However, some people come in here, and threads like these, just to be condescending and use derogatory terminology against people with opinions that do not align with their own. If these people already have what they want, why the need to act in such an aggressive way? It is equivalent to in real life pointing and laughing in someone's face because you got your way and they didn't. "Oh, you lost your smelting, you gonna cry? You a little baby, gonna cry over an icon?" It's disgraceful.
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And some people come in these threads to provide context and perspective for seeing such changes in light of a bigger picture. That's usually how coping in any scenario is achieved. When this is met with inconsistent and incoherent arguments designed only to assuage their emotional attachment, it tends not to go well.

The irony? I haven't even made up my mind one way or the other. I haven't even played A18 yet. But reading arguments for and against I can't help but think that the side that's against the change is more *reasonable* as they rarely rely on "you are wrong" argument and instead provide, you know, *reasons* for not liking the change.
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No, they tend to resort to emotional opinions about why they want to keep what they had. They are welcome to their opinions about why they liked the thing, but their reasons for why it belongs tend to fall woefully short of "reasonable."

 
If the change was made to reduce items, get rid of fishing weights and lead trophies. Lead is totally abundant now from mines. And maybe I'm in the minority, but I liked crafting fertilizer in the chem station from turds instead of using rotting flesh to make farm plots (even though rotting flesh was also an ingredient used to make fertilizer in the cement mixer in the same alpha).

 
Does no one else feel that lead and brass more closely align with raw iron than scrap iron? The thing is, there's not much you can do (last I remember) without smelting your lead and brass to make items. (There may be a recipe somewhere I'm forgetting) however, my feeling was always that those items had to be refined in the forge, the same as raw iron.

The scrap iron, however, had a special use outside of the forge, you were able do essentially take chunks you ripped off of cars and buildings and attach them to walls to increase strength, or bend them into spikes.

Seems strange to mine chunks of metal out of a raw ore vein and it be the same usability as a car door I ripped off.

I know, everyone starts comparing to brass and lead at this point...but, what are you crafting with your brass or lead in your pack? Anything you scrap in those materials is almost 100% going in the forge just like the raw iron, so scrapped brass/lead makes sense to be the same as mined, as there is little other use.

 
Come on dude, you throw out numbers to prove your point, then you're proven wrong, then throw up your hands and say "Well it just feels wrong" Don't you think you are just being a tad unreasonable at this point?
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Er what?!! I did testing on my stable world to make sure the numbers were correct because someone replied to the OP giving his own numbers (in experimental) with the new change. Results from mining were thrown out on both sides and I just merely confirmed the you still got 1:5 ratio. What is wrong with fact checking? Also have you been paying attention to what I said? My argument was that this was in game for a very long time and that for long time players it will be hard to get used to. Me saying it just doesn't feel right adds to that.

So dude, chill out...

 
Look, I feel you guys about the whole raw iron thing, I get it. But look at it from another perspective: bloat = more system resources, period. Yes it's small, but if you add 1 enough times it turns into thousands too. To be honest, with the removal of stuff and addition of stuff, my load times have increased a bit even. Things like the hoe, raw iron and etc getting removed means more room for other stuff. I've never played Minecraft, but I have heard of cases where people need a beast PC when they add a bunch of mods that adds stuff. Are we really wanting to keep things such as raw iron and scrap iron insted of just raw iron (and the tons of other things removed) and alienate the game to people with multi k$ pcs, just for 'immersion'?

 
As for "legacy nonsense" - I'm sorry but that's the technical term. =P
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I've been in software development for over a decade. I've know of the term legacy but haven't heard of 'legacy nonsense' (your exact words). Quit trying to pull the wool over the eyes of non-technical people ;) .

 
Also: Page 9? That's awesome. Oh, the good old days when wood was made more granular and players would lose their ♥♥♥♥ over the no-change. =P
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Aye, it's dull. Anything in the works that will hopefully stir up the forums a bit more?

 
"I need my 25-pin serial Zip drive to work with my 2-in-1!" <---- Legacy nonsense.

"We're going to save game resources by removing iron ore" <---- Developer nonsense.

"Oh look... here's a recipe for "Mary Magdalene Tarts." Betcha they're easy" <---- Sister Hubert Nunsense.

-Morloc

 
Look, I feel you guys about the whole raw iron thing, I get it. But look at it from another perspective: bloat = more system resources, period. Yes it's small, but if you add 1 enough times it turns into thousands too. To be honest, with the removal of stuff and addition of stuff, my load times have increased a bit even. Things like the hoe, raw iron and etc getting removed means more room for other stuff. I've never played Minecraft, but I have heard of cases where people need a beast PC when they add a bunch of mods that adds stuff. Are we really wanting to keep things such as raw iron and scrap iron insted of just raw iron (and the tons of other things removed) and alienate the game to people with multi k$ pcs, just for 'immersion'?
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There has to be a balance though. Take the boring tasks out of the game, the tasks that are there to only take up time, and stream line the items that are in the game.....but keep it believable so I can continue to have some sort of cohesive immersion with the game.

I mean, honestly, how much load will it take off the game removing one item and one icon? You still have the textures of the iron vein, still have the load from mining the vein, still have the load from smelting the material.

No, imo this change was done because someone thought "this iron is clogging up my inventory and all I can do is smelt it....let's get rid of it and just use iron scraps/processed iron cause then I can use it without smelting it". And I can tell you now, that person enjoys looting and shooting the most in the game.

The fact that iron ore was removed is not huge (though it is illogical to have finished product come from mining), what is huge is that this is another step that reduces the feel of surviving in a zombie apocalypse in favor of more immediate gratification.

 
Don't forget, it all adds up. They didn't just remove raw iron in the game's history. There's also a bit of code attached to that "1" thing too, don't forget. It's more than just an icon.

 
There has to be a balance though. Take the boring tasks out of the game, the tasks that are there to only take up time, and stream line the items that are in the game.....but keep it believable so I can continue to have some sort of cohesive immersion with the game.
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You do recognize that these are subjective, right?

No, imo this change was done because someone thought "this iron is clogging up my inventory and all I can do is smelt it....let's get rid of it and just use iron scraps/processed iron cause then I can use it without smelting it". And I can tell you now, that person enjoys looting and shooting the most in the game.
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I doubt it. You just said it yourself, "All I can do is smelt it." If there is a material which has exactly one purpose or one recipe, it isn't worth keeping.

The fact that iron ore was removed is not huge (though it is illogical to have finished product come from mining), what is huge is that this is another step that reduces the feel of surviving in a zombie apocalypse in favor of more immediate gratification.
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Because you totally would have an iron mine and be forging metal to make a brand new pick axe in the zombie apocalypse. I wonder why that isn't in zombie movies...

 
Also: Page 9? That's awesome. Oh, the good old days when wood was made more granular and players would lose their ♥♥♥♥ over the no-change. =P
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Who won the office pool for "minor tweak that rustles the most jimmies" this week?

ETA: The strawmen and reductio-ad-absurdum fallacies in this thread are top-notch. Well done, almost everyone.

 
Everyone who is disappointed (I'm including myself) at the streamlining of crafting need to re-adjust their expectations of the game. It is a "crafting-like" game. Period. The developers are not interested in deep and simulation level crafting being a pillar of the game. There are other games that have each step of refinement and interfaces for assembly and disassembly and intermediate components and production lines and economy of scale and automation etc etc.

This game is not striving to be one of those "crafting-heavy" games. If we want it to have a more robust crafting footprint with layers and layers then we will have to mod it that way. I wish there was a defined step between raw ores and what we use for crafting things. I dig (pun intended) those processes. But others, including the decision makers, don't like them. They see them as tedious and even illogical (inexplicably...).

I can imagine that most people with 1000+ hours are going to look at (Mine --> Raw Iron --> Smelting --> Usable Iron) vs (Mine --> Usable Iron) as a no brainer for choosing the second option. They are burnt out on processes that eat up time and want to just get to the usable iron without having to do what they would consider a useless step that only exists for its own sake. New players and crafting nuts would of course be fine with the first option because the former wouldn't know any better and is not yet burned out and the latter would be happy with several steps of refinement when you get right down to it....

TFP has made their final decision on this matter. Crafting is there for when you can't get something by looting or trading. It is the back up plan. It is the boring time consuming part of getting stuff you want and so naturally they will change it to be more streamlined and abstract so that it becomes less and less of an obstacle to the time spent on looting and exploring and shopping. And the more the devs play this game and the more hours they put it the more likely they will be to further streamline the bothersome part. And the more populated this forum is by 1000+ hour players the more likely they will be to agree that too much involved crafting to get what you really just want to have is a bad idea and it should be streamlined down.

It is disappointing but it is not objectively bad design. It is simply a choice of what features in the game are going to be emphasized and given depth. This game can't be 11 in every single genre it has mashed up in it. It isn't going to out Stardew Valley Stardew Valley for farming and it isn't going to out Space Engineer Space Engineers for crafting and assembly. They've decided to go lighter on those aspects of the game to emphasize other parts of the game that are also admittedly fun.

Most importantly, the customer response to these changes can't be ignored. It is doing better than it ever has with a heaver emphasis on looting and shooting and a lighter emphasis on crafting and farming. And it is stupid to just chalk up all the good will to "stupid people who don't know good design". The truth is the design is fine and just doesn't mesh well with our particular preference of deeper crafting.

 
By gamedesign, there are several hours per day that the player is intended to spend time in the base.

What else to do than crafting, reorganizing the inventory and picking perks?

Making crafting simpler / too trivial can also lead to boredom during the night.

 
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