PC A18.1 (b6) Changes: Mining iron ore yields iron?!?
- Thread starter Cadamier
- Start date
Straw man. Raw Iron was only ever used in a recipe to create Iron. It was a "basic" building block that only had one pathway, and one step. Cement, which is made from Small Rocks and Sand (itself which can be made from Small Rocks), is the end of a larger chain: Small Rocks -> Sand, plus Small Rocks = Cement. The two are not comparable, and trying to make it such is deliberately obtuse - hence, straw man. It was an added step in a process for the sake of having a process - completely unnecessary tedium that some people will call "complexity". Roland touched on a point regarding complexity in other games, where the process chains are much longer, and the entire gameplay loop is built around that. 7D2D is not those games - it borrows elements of them, and whittles them down to their basic core to add overall complexity to the gameplay without adding tedium. It's a delicate balance, and some clearly don't agree with it, but it's the way this game is designed.
You don't have to agree with the decision, but it's a valid decision made for the right reasons for the intended goals, and all this "Chicken Little" nonsense is more than a little ridiculous. Don't like it? Mod it, or play something else. We have broad freedom of choice in what games we play - it's a beautiful time to be a gamer in so many ways.
While we are at it:
Yucca pants are replaced with 1/5th of a medicated bandage plant.
Blood bags replaced with a medkit, medkits aren't craftable anymore.
15 different types of food replaced with "poor, ok, good" food.
empty cans replaced with iron
Fire axes, pickaxes, shovels, hoes, and sledges replaced with a "TOOL" that does it all.
all varieties of canned food replaced with one "canned food" item.
remove water mechanic all together, because it's trivial to keep it topped up.
Stamina removed from game, food just controls max health.
Damocles
New member
Any ore should be processed. Thats what the bases economy is for (plausible). Scavanged items can be repurposed for some simple tools (also plausible). Any advanced items needing refined materials like pig-iron or high carbon steel. Needs a base then, and cant be done on the run.
Thats how I would imagine it...
AtomicUs5000
New member
That was unnecessary. I had already previously stated that I accept the change and I understand the reason behind doing it. That doesn't mean I don't find the whole situation humorous.
What I don't accept is the diminishing depth of survival in this game. I've pointed out before, and I will again. The only reason that TFP was able to come to the conclusion that raw iron to iron is now silly, is because of previous changes that led up to it. The most notable and ridiculous change was that they allowed the scrapping of iron ore into iron with your bare hands to begin with.
guardianangelmp
New member
1) processed iron from loot and objects: items you can make with it outside of work benches and other construction tools are reasonablely believable to be able to do....getting processed iron from an ore node is not.
2) wood into furniture without making planks: I would argue that any complex creation from wood would need to be done at the work bench where wood processing would be part of the creation process (in the background, no micromanaging needed), though you could also say that part of the crafting time in the inventory involves chopping the wood into appropriate parts to craft the item......getting processed iron/product from nodes is not appropriate. A better comparison with wood would be hitting the tree with an ax and getting the furniture.
3) I don't think it's appropriate to use the same bullet tips for all bullets. This is another dumbing down of the game. Have rifle tips, slug tips (used for 9mm and shotgun slugs), and buck shot for shotgun shells. It would make people need to think about what to craft, if they want to scrap the tips they found or keep them, and create inventory scarcity.
I don't justify these "simpler" changes, I constantly shake my head at the dumbing down of all entertainment and how people eat it up with their 5 second attention spans and need for immediate gratification.
On the note of "simpler" changes and "legacy nonsense", when are the brass faucets/candle sticks/doornobs/radiators and lead weights going to be taken out of the game and replaced with just brass and lead?
I mean, those things served the same purpose as raw iron, a material to be smelted or scrapped down into a useful material, and don't serve any other purpose for the player. Is that on the board for the next update?
I'm just surprised by all this "streamlining" of the crafting that is happening alongside the "steel sledgehammer parts are very different than steel fire axe parts, and also forged steel can't be somehow heated up and hammered into a similar shape ether at all".
It seems like the dev team might not all be going to the same meetings.
guardianangelmp
New member
Doornobs, brass radiators, candle sticks, lead weights.....what about those. The initial example of iron ore ->processed iron = stone ->cement was an EXAGGERATION, but what about all the other items in the game that are only ment to be processed into useful items.
Those things are not in there just to be processed, they are in there to add ambiance to the game and engagement for the player...to make the player feel like they are in the zombie apocalypse. Streamlined or simpler isn't always better, there has to be a balance between efficiency and complexity an it is my opinion that the game is going in the wrong direction.
Also, the argument of "don't like it, tough sh*t" is a 12 year old cop out used to dismiss any argument that you don't like and don't want to/can't make a proper defense against. It also can alienate players who enjoy/love the game as a whole but have certain concerns. So why don't you leave the "love the game the way it is or just leave" attitude at the WoW forums.
Jedo
New member
More like it's the argument that you use when the other side refuses to accept the reasoned argument. I mean, it isn't as though the reasons for the change have been undermined, and yet the arguments rage on.
Ummm, if you already accept the change, then why keep posting bad logic against it?
Anyway, your point is wrong. Iron ore was a singularly-purposed intermediate step which had no value. Not even the minimal decision of whether to scrap it or smelt it changes this. That's the difference between this and all the stupid comparisons that Nucleus keeps trying to make.
Look, there is a process for getting the 4x4, and it is reasonable. TFP seems to think the same. It took me 90 minutes to make the 4x4. Should they streamline that? Not at all, and they won't. Crafting is good and important. Having tedious intermediate steps in the crafting process is not.
The irony in your statement is killing me. Thanks for the chuckle.
That is a valid point, however the reason those other changes were implemented is the same reason as this one. This isn't Rimworld or Space Engineers or Subnautica though, and the gameplay loop they are moving towards is a less complex and/or tedious one for a reason - it's not the main drive of the game. Ultimately, this change saves time - time that can be better used to loot, trade, quest, or build. While I greatly appreciate the gameplay loops found in the aforementioned games, there's a reason I and many others are playing 7D2D instead of those other games (No Man's Sky especially - love that game! Haven't bought the others yet, but Subnautica is on my wish list). Giving players more time to do more of the things the game offers - building bases, looting POIs, questing for the trader - makes this a positive move for many. For you, you're going to miss that added step because it gave you a small sense of progression in the larger picture, and that's perfectly valid. That's a gameplay loop you and many others enjoy (myself included), but it's simply not the main gameplay loop being persued in this game. That doesn't mean the game is removing all crafting complexity, nor do I think that will ever happen. It's just being - well, you could say it's being processed or refined into a higher quality.
Ghostlight
New member
Which recipes or upgrade paths require raw iron? I can't think of any. Wooden ladders -> Iron ladders maybe? It's been a while. Genuinely curious.
AtomicUs5000
New member
This kinda aligns more with my thoughts.
Over the alphas, they have simplified recipes for things more and more under umbrella statements like, "we don't want multiple ways to craft something", "recipes bog down the UI", "we don't want a wiki to be able to do things". All those statements are logical. I agree... but to an extent. Just like how complexity can go too far, simplicity can too. You end up with undesirable side effects.
Example of undesirable side effects. Kill a chicken, get chicken. Kill a pig, get pork. A recipe uses pork and eggs for bacon and eggs. Remove chicken, pork, venison etc and just make it all "meat". Now we make bacon from snakes, chickens, rabbits, you name it. We can play pretend, but in the end it's just sloppy and unprofessional.
They went the wrong way with this. Mining should involve some refinement. Instead of eliminating it from iron, they should have added it to the ores that don't have the requirement. It felt good to smelt your iron ore, knowing you were getting the maximum resources out of it... just like how it feels good to smelt a stack a radiators as opposed to scrapping them all. If the step was too basic even with the bonus, then reduce the xp from mining and add a little into smelting.
This is similar to if they took out conveyor belts in Factorio and just made it so products teleport from one machine to the other. It has the same result, but it takes away from something.
AtomicUs5000
New member
To get people fired up, why else?
Jedo
New member
If the "if you disagree with me you are wrong" argument is an admission that you have no valid arguments left, then changing a person's words to say what they didn't say must be the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and saying, "La la la I can't hear you."
Argue better.
Jedo
New member
You are right. They should have added quotation marks around "bacon." It's the damn apocalypse. You don't think you are going to make "bacon" and eggs out of whatever meat you have at hand?
They also should make you have to come back to the forge and clean out the slag before your metal can be refined. The forge gets gummed up over time and will stop working if you don't clean it. Ah, the satisfaction of realism.
There's enough idiocy in the world. You want to make more of it? It's why I used the word "butthurt" earlier. If you don't like the moniker, then don't deserve it.
Your editing of my post in quote, and missing the point entirely, continues to make me laugh. Thank you for that.
Weapon parts exist as a variable to control the pace of gameplay. You can argue it's cludgy, and I certainly would agree, but it's what we have. It's gating for the sake of pace and progression. I don't disagree with the goal, and I don't hate the implementation, although I think there are still tweaks to be made within the existing system in order to better balance it overall.
I wouldn't hate this change in the slightest. Frees up yet more icons (which apparently is a performance thing?), streamlines gameplay and loot tables a bit more, and gives me more time to focus on the things that matter most to me: killing zombies, doing quests, and building bases. I don't hate their existence, but I won't mourn their loss if they go the way of the Dodo. I'd rather find a schematic in the trash than a brass doorknob.
I get the arguments of "it just doesn't feel right" because that's what it feels like to me. Ya, ya, facts don't care about feelings and you still get the same amount this new way...agreed. However...I really liked the risk/reward aspect of getting iron chunks and losing scrap when scrapping v. smelting. And yes...you can't really use anything from a chunk realistically so scrapping shouldn't even be a thing...I get that too.
But I think that pretty much all of the base components we use: wood, iron, lead, brass, rocks...whatever...should have to be refined to make what you need when it comes to complex recipes. And...if you choose to refine them in a backpack...then you get less that if you'd done it in a preferred method (in fact, I always thought you should only get 2 iron from a chunk instead of 3 and let's not talk about using multiples to shoot that number above 3---like how 7 chunks would get you 24 scrap), but this method should still be used to enable crafting of more simpler items.
Meh...that's just me...seems logical that if something has been refined already (iron shelves) and you break those down...you should get the already refined material (scrap iron) and it should be a 1:1 smelt. Again...that's just me. I'll take whatever the game gives me but as some have said...it "feels" like something is being taken away even though that's not what's happening. I'm just a voice in The Void though.
But I think that pretty much all of the base components we use: wood, iron, lead, brass, rocks...whatever...should have to be refined to make what you need when it comes to complex recipes. And...if you choose to refine them in a backpack...then you get less that if you'd done it in a preferred method (in fact, I always thought you should only get 2 iron from a chunk instead of 3 and let's not talk about using multiples to shoot that number above 3---like how 7 chunks would get you 24 scrap), but this method should still be used to enable crafting of more simpler items.
Meh...that's just me...seems logical that if something has been refined already (iron shelves) and you break those down...you should get the already refined material (scrap iron) and it should be a 1:1 smelt. Again...that's just me. I'll take whatever the game gives me but as some have said...it "feels" like something is being taken away even though that's not what's happening. I'm just a voice in The Void though.