PC A17's design is bad - learn from Sony

Poojam

Poojam

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The redesign of a lot of A17's core gameplay mechanics is akin to the NGE release on Star Wars Galaxies. They took all the diversity the game offered with the 12 character classes, and built the game they wanted by consolidating most of it into a typical WOW/Diablo style progression system with the release of NGE.

Summary

https://www.engadget.com/2005/11/24/star-wars-galaxies-new-game-enhancements-cause-player-backlash/

A year afterwards,

"We've learned a thing or two with our experiences with the NGE and don't plan on repeating mistakes from the past and not listening to the players." John Smedley

Don't be Sony.

 
What's kinda funny about that article is that it specifies the main objection being that the powerful Jedi profession was changed to being able to be chosen at the very beginning of the game. So if SONY makes powerful abilities available from Day 1 but TFP gates powerful abilities until later in the game aren't they being the opposite of SONY?

 
What's kinda funny about that article is that it specifies the main objection being that the powerful Jedi profession was changed to being able to be chosen at the very beginning of the game. So if SONY makes powerful abilities available from Day 1 but TFP gates powerful abilities until later in the game aren't they being the opposite of SONY?
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I like A17 a lot, but I can see the issues some are complaining about. Personally, if TFP combined the item quality and skill system of A16 with the PoI, perk, and game stage/zombie difficulty of A17, it would be the perfect game (for me).

 
I'm pretty sure that's not what they meant.

But let's focus on 7d2d. There is no player progression anymore. At least not of the scope of A16 (if it had the perks).

In A15 you are what you want, as fast as you want, but you have to work for it. In A16 it actually improved by giving me the choice of spending points in attributes (focusing early game) or only buying perks and levelling attributes the slow way. And while some parts were flawed, most of it was alright, just waiting to be balanced and enriched.

A17 threw all that away and now we have a bland perk system, nothing I do influences my character, so even if im only out there farming grass 24/7, I can still be a master ninja/smith/fighter/deadshot out there. Because everyone unlocks the same perks at the same time.

It is so cheap and so forced...

People aren't mad about the new food beeing raw and uncooked. They are mad because you had a 4* meal already prepared, but threw it away because it was missing spices and now we have this abomination to eat for the next year (or two).

 
Can we get a link for the quote? The linked article provides very little information. Definitely not enough to draw any parallels with A17

 
The redesign of a lot of A17's core gameplay mechanics is akin to the NGE release on Star Wars Galaxies. They took all the diversity the game offered with the 12 character classes, and built the game they wanted by consolidating most of it into a typical WOW/Diablo style progression system with the release of NGE.
Summary

https://www.engadget.com/2005/11/24/star-wars-galaxies-new-game-enhancements-cause-player-backlash/

A year afterwards,

"We've learned a thing or two with our experiences with the NGE and don't plan on repeating mistakes from the past and not listening to the players." John Smedley

Don't be Sony.
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If they change this game much more I will have to cancel my monthly subscription.

 
Because everyone unlocks the same perks at the same time. It is so cheap and so forced...
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Here is the counterargument to that point: I am one single person and in about ten restarts I have not unlocked the same perks in the same way in each of those ten restarts. And that's just me comparing myself to myself. Now if you look at the 24,000 people who returned to play this weekend there have got to be thousands of those who played A17 and played it differently from each other because what you say ONLY applies to people who insist on playing the game optimally and for them it doesn't matter whether there are different progression pathways because as soon as they find The One True Path they will forevermore play the game that way.

I have no doubt you unlock the same perks every single time and that it perfectly matches the same exact algorithm chosen by your friends. You all probably had fun exactly once as you discussed and figured out the most efficient order to play and since then it's always been the same. Not everyone plays like that and the game does support choosing different player builds by spending your points in different areas and it is a lot of fun for me and I suppose those like me.

People aren't mad about the new food beeing raw and uncooked. They are mad because you had a 4* meal already prepared, but threw it away because it was missing spices and now we have this abomination to eat for the next year (or two).
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And people like me are thankful that the Kiddie Happy Meal known as A16 has been replaced by the 4* grown up meal we are now digesting.

It's just preferences, man. The designs are different and one is not objectively better than another. One is better for you and another is better for him and another is better for me. Do I like everything about A17? No. But overall it is the best update yet and I can't wait for mods to get fleshed out and for balancing to bring the current design to an even higher level.

 
I like A17 a lot, but I can see the issues some are complaining about. Personally, if TFP combined the item quality and skill system of A16 with the PoI, perk, and game stage/zombie difficulty of A17, it would be the perfect game (for me).
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Agreed

 
And people like me are thankful that the Kiddie Happy Meal known as A16 has been replaced by the 4* grown up meal we are now digesting.
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A17 becomes Kiddie Happy meal around level 100 (day 30) when you have top tier of all weapons and a ton of mods in each. Same with armour. And all the key perks maxed too. You are basically maxed in terms of firepower. And this being maxed occurs much earlier than it did in A16, sadly. And being maxed in A17 is much more OP than being maxed in A16 was. 3 sniper rifle head shots for an irradiated cop....

Now many players are reaching level 100+ the cracks in the overall progression design are beginning to show.

 
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And people like me are thankful that the Kiddie Happy Meal known as A16 has been replaced by the 4* grown up meal we are now digesting.
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Thing is though, ironically it doesn't really matter what you eat in A17. You could eat a Happy Meal or a 4* Grown up meal and it does the same thing. It fills you up a %.

 
Better article from Engadget.

https://www.engadget.com/2008/06/26/a-star-wars-galaxies-history-lesson-from-launch-to-the-nge-5/

Handy quote I found on Star Wars TOR.

"The NGE fundamentally changed the game from a skill based, free form system, to some hodgepdoge Everquest-esque wannabe Level based system. It simplified the game and made the Jedi a class, which pissed off a lot of people because it was originally a long quest and require a lot of xp to actually start acquiring abilities. I was Force Sensative when the NGE and CU went live.

In any case, it took away the enjoyment that was SWG. The ability to combine multiple skills to make your own "build" was quite enjoyeable. I had the most fun as a Combat Medic/Pistoleer."

While I feel this situation is analogous in terms of forced specialization/game design/general dislike, I agree that there was likely a greater level of butt hurt because it was a subscription model. I don't think calling it an Alpha is a jail out of free card completely, but it does help TFP's case. We also lack an organized economy/guilds/player society that SWG had that led to the greater mutiny, but I would say the essence of the changes is the real problem. You took something that worked, supported diverse playstyles that the player stepped into/out of and blended together at their leisure, and generally was loved for years, and then TFP took it away with a level-based progression that really only supports a few distinct, pre-programmed playstyles. Just so happens only one of those playstyles functions well because the version that is currently out is so unbalanced.

 
Calling this an Alpha is a 100% get out of jail free card. This game has NOT been released yet. It is still in development. The developers have every right to try something new and see what THEY think about it. Any problems or issues with the game are understandable, since it's an alpha.

 
Thing is though, ironically it doesn't really matter what you eat in A17. You could eat a Happy Meal or a 4* Grown up meal and it does the same thing. It fills you up a %.
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Well the Happy Meal could add some amount of food poisoning as well and the Grown Up meal could give 30 minutes of +1 fortittude. See, in A17 buffs like that can be applied to food, drinks, mods, etc. We are still in the infancy--technically in the womb-- of the A17 lifecycle because A17 hasn't been released yet. You just have to be patient. That is an important attribute to possess when playing a test build of an unreleased Alpha. I know because I've been spamming that skill for about 3 years now and I've gotten it maxed out. Some of you need to work on it a bit more.

 
Now many players are reaching level 100+ the cracks in the overall progression design are beginning to show.
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You do not need to hit level 100 to see the cracks. A few levels in its obvious the new design has issues. No matter how much one overbalances the XP gains etc...

Everything feels dumbed down. Great at first, when your new to 7D2D but less fun on replays. Roland is the exception because he is our local TFP fanboy that will find everything 7D2D great after a 1000 restarts :fat:

I mean:

* Most POIs are now just simply zombie spawning ground with predictable traps.

* Mining (underground ) has becomes a even more tedious work then A16.

* Mining above ground is the same for early to mid gameplay.

* Perks do not feel immersive when you can kill zombies and all of a sudden become a farmer or master chef. Let alone how you magically get more powerful with your weapons, get more resources out of harvesting / animals etc. A16 had some of this but not in the extend that A17 turned it into.

* ... its a long list that needs no repeating again.

A lot are broken designs that you can not fix without rewritting the game again. And a lot can not even be modded in anymore. Hell, even Bandits are even now broken! For a game that is supposed to be mod-able, it really means "mod the way we want you to mod".

 
Well the Happy Meal could add some amount of food poisoning as well and the Grown Up meal could give 30 minutes of +1 fortittude. See, in A17 buffs like that can be applied to food, drinks, mods, etc. We are still in the infancy--technically in the womb-- of the A17 lifecycle because A17 hasn't been released yet. You just have to be patient. That is an important attribute to possess when playing a test build of an unreleased Alpha. I know because I've been spamming that skill for about 3 years now and I've gotten it maxed out. Some of you need to work on it a bit more.
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I absolutely accept things will probably change anyway and we are still in Alpha Experimental. I'd certainly like to see more importance in what you eat. Not to the point where it hinders gameplay though. But a more developed version of the wellness system would be great.

However with A16, it did become a cycle of eating bacon and eggs for every meal because it gave you the most wellness (I think Meat Stew was also pretty good if i remember rightly?)

My characters must have terrible wind with all they eggs they eat in 7DTD.

 
What I found was that most perks don't give significant enough bonuses before they reach 3/5 (at player level 20 minimum) which means you'll almost always end up putting points into perks that are significant from the get go. Crafting perks, health regen, living off the land etc.

It's not until after the first week of ingame time that most perks get bonuses that are significant enough to be worth it.

On top of that, we're discouraged from spending points in the basic perks (Intel, fortitude, agility etc) because there are items that give permanent bonuses to those stats, and those bonuses only work if you stop yourself from spending points in them (Because bonuses never go above the cap)

And then we have magazines that are so restrictive in their usage that they end up being trader fodder more often than not because being in a position to make good use of the perk bonuses granted by magazines is difficult.

TL;DR There is very little character progression before level 20, and progression after level 20 goes out the window because it is far too fast (In the current iteration).

Specialization only ever happens after level 20 and that is my biggest complaint with the system we currently have.

 
However with A16, it did become a cycle of eating bacon and eggs for every meal because it gave you the most wellness (I think Meat Stew was also pretty good if i remember rightly?)
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You will do the exact same in A17 because its still the most easy to make food. The entire food system in 7D2D tended to be very weak and A17 is no different, even with the buffs.

Its not like there is a system where you get tired of eating the same food or you get vitamin deficiencies ( and illnesses ) from eating the exact same food.

Note: Great idea for a mod! Balanced food = buffs. Unbalanced food = sickness.

 
It's been a lot of eggs so far. I've strayed away from bacon and eggs because of the cost of meat now. 5 raw to 1 cooked is a bit OTT.

I don't food to be another thing I need to micromanage but it should have a meaningful bearing.

However, I don't want this food analogy to take over the OPs thread.

As you were.

 
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Well the Happy Meal could add some amount of food poisoning as well and the Grown Up meal could give 30 minutes of +1 fortittude. See, in A17 buffs like that can be applied to food, drinks, mods, etc. We are still in the infancy--technically in the womb-- of the A17 lifecycle because A17 hasn't been released yet. You just have to be patient. That is an important attribute to possess when playing a test build of an unreleased Alpha. I know because I've been spamming that skill for about 3 years now and I've gotten it maxed out. Some of you need to work on it a bit more.
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BA DA DA DA DAAA - I'm lovin it.

 
While I think I understand where PrivateRiem is going with the linked article, it's not really the same. I remember the changes to SW:G and while there was plenty the major one was that it went from a Koster-world to a class-based very structured game. The change from a16 to a17 while simplifying a bunch of things didn't radically change its approach to player progression or the development of the game world. Technically, 7 Days to Die still has a free form skill system that promotes both parallel play and team-based role-specific play. Yes, it has balance issues with the risks & rewards and while these appear as practical issues, they aren't fundamental ones. The Fun Pimps does appear to listen to masses (although I don't know what sort of metric gathering systems they have), and they will smooth out the issues. And as much as the official statement says this is an alpha, alphas are never released to the public nor are they this polished. Really they should just be honest and change it to 'open or public beta', and continue with their current practices. Which will mean... Don't cry Wolf. Don't like the current version, revert back to a16. Or mod the game. Or... just be patient and wait for a18 even if it takes more than year. All games take time to develop. All cost money, sweat, and sanity.

Also... OP... Don't suggest Sony. Either suggest Raph Koster the original designer of SW:G or Jeff Freeman (RIP) who was the old Lead Designer. Both are (were) brilliant game designers and understand mechanics, players, and game philosophy very well.

 
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