PC A17.1: "For builders, we have bolstered XP for harvesting and mining substantially"

Yes, yes a good argument, you are right.But, nevertheless, the message of my post was not about "who we are", but about the fact that it is not necessary to say that everything is good, when everything is not good, it is not necessary to hang noodles on the ears, it offends people who are able to see things as they really are.
But whether things are good depends on a persons tastes. THERE ARE people perfectly enjoying A17 as is.

"people who are able to see things as they really are" assumes you have (like those people) the absolute truth on your side and anyone with a different view (like MM) is deluded.

Note that people in asylums generally think everyone else is deluded (wardens as well as inmates!) :smile-new:

 
But whether things are good depends on a persons tastes. THERE ARE people perfectly enjoying A17 as is.
"people who are able to see things as they really are" assumes you have (like those people) the absolute truth on your side and anyone with a different view (like MM) is deluded.

Note that people in asylums generally think everyone else is deluded (wardens as well as inmates!) :smile-new:
But there is no unanimous opinion - that A17 is good.

Otherwise, why all these numerous discussions ?

;)

Who's right? most likely, the A17 is not successful, and those people who are happy are wrong to the same extent as those who are not happy - the only question is that some are satisfied - but that doesn't make them automatically right.

There are people who say that it "is not good", where you take them with your logic? to the wrong?

It turns out, what that, "persecution on the basis of dissatisfied" :D where is your tolerance? :)

PS:

Under "people who see correctly" are those people who have their own opinion (including the opposite of mine;)) based on what he really sees. In contrast to those people who believe, for example, advertising and television...do you know them?

And once again, the discussion goes back to "who to like and who doesn't" but i was talking about something else. I emphasize: I mean that MM constantly says that everything is good, and trying to justify himself...

If only because the game is at the alpha stage - and this by definition does not make it free from defects. There is nothing wrong to admit their shortcomings, at this stage they do not owe anyone anything.

 
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But there is no unanimous opinion - that A17 is good.Otherwise, why all these numerous discussions ?

;)

Who's right? most likely, the A17 is not successful, and those people who are happy are wrong to the same extent as those who are not happy - the only question is that some are satisfied - but that doesn't make them automatically right.

There are people who say that it "is not good", where you take them with your logic? to the wrong?

...

I emphasize: I mean that MM constantly says that everything is good, and trying to justify himself...

...
There never was unanimous opinion about 7d2d, you can find posts at the time of A16 experimental critizising each and every change from A15, complaining about the bugs, the balance, that A16 is totally broken,... So, why those numerous discussions about A16? And A15? And A14? Because every change has at least one person who liked the old way protesting that something was taken away from him.

You don't know whether A17 is successful or not. Essentially we will know in a few months when A17 is stable enough and people have played it through from start to whatever personal end state they favor.

Putting a lot of disgruntled voices (which seem to emerge in every experimental!) as proof that things are objectively wrong is like saying a ♥♥♥♥storm on the internet is always right.

This is a discussion whether the glass is half empty or hallf full. MM for example sees the glass half full, and some balancing, some changes and additions will make it to the game he wants. You see it as half empty and say "all is bad", because you don't like the game in this state or the direction the game is taking. Fair enough, but it doesn't mean both your views can't exist in the same universe.

 
Okay, we wait A18, and then A17 will look better :)

(well good, A18 will be really better, it has always been so that the subsequent Alphas were better than the first of the "breakthrough", therefore, in the near future only improvements are expected until the next " breakthrough")

Yeah, sure, i get it, I've been here a long time.

For myself, i always compare with A9-A10.

I just don't believe in optimism MM, i think it is disingenuous. That's all.

 
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One interesting and partially-related thing with mining/digging/chopping XP is how inconsistent it is. I've noticed that different levels of tool, Miner 69er, and Mother Lode will give different XP totals for the same task and higher skill does not always equate to more XP. This makes the XP that miners get surprisingly hard to define.

 
I don't understand why anyone would relegate themselves to only one task i.e. killing zombies only or mining only? I'm sure people have their 'thing', but switching roles at some point would seem to keep the juices flowing...imo.

 
What I see: We think you complain about XP so we did this, which shows we still don't get it.
The fixes they have put in so far were things complained about. They do get what is alienating people from A17 and those things they are willing to adjust they are doing. More changes are coming.

No more gun parts, no more learning skills by doing, no more item quality actually makes a difference.
Guns are still craftable via parts. They are just different parts. You also still get to use the assembly screen for adding new parts that do a lot more than the old parts. If you want it to be like before then simply don’t shoot your gun until ALL mod slots are filled and it will be just like A16.

LBD: It will never be like it was in A16. There may be some developments in that area but it will be something different. If A16 LBD is a deal breaker for you then you may need to part ways at this point. It’s okay. People pick up new video games all the time.

Item Quality: It makes a huge difference once you have your gun completely finished. In A16 you could assemble one part and it would look like the gun it would become but it wouldn’t work. It would only shoot once you had all five parts in their slots. The only difference with A17 is that you can use your gun at a weak level while you work on completing it. But if you want it to be like A16 just don’t use your gun until all mod slots are filled just the same way it was in A16.

Nope, you still don't get it. But this was your vision all along, that's why you made the gun parts, that's why we had recipes, that's why we had all of that stuff. Because THIS, without all that stuff was your vision all along, right? Why do you break everything every time and introduce completely new stuff that nobody wants except you?
What you don’t get is the nature of developing and experimenting. This is the first project of The Fun Pimps and they are using its development to experiment with different systems which they may or may not use in future projects. The Fun Pimps are actually using early access to give us a glimpse into their actual development of ideas. They have a roadmap of wanting the player’s character to progress and grow more capable even as the world also grows more dangerous. That roadmap has never altered. But they are interested in experimenting with different systems of attaining their design goal. You fell in love with one of the experiments they chose not to use. This doesn’t make them liars nor does it make them directionless. Characters still progress in the game in a way that is enjoyable for many players.

What you want is a game that is pretty much complete but is put into early access for the marketing aspect of it. No big decisions to be made and no major changes because all of those choices were already hashed out before the game released to early access and you get pretty much the same game at the end as you had at the start because the company wasn’t really interested in letting you see the game during that raw experimental and developing process. 7 Days to Die development is a wild ride but as long as you don’t get too attached to any features it has always been rewarding and fun to adapt to the changes.

 
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I don't understand why anyone would relegate themselves to only one task i.e. killing zombies only or mining only? I'm sure people have their 'thing', but switching roles at some point would seem to keep the juices flowing...imo.
Simple. It is because leveling quickly is their primary objective. If your primary objective is to build a bicycle then you will engage in all sorts of activities in order to get the bike constructed. Things like hitting surface boulders for iron and gathering bones and cloth to make duct tape will feel meaningful because they lead to your objective. But if your primary objective is to level up quickly, then any activity which is not the best source of xp is seen as worthless. You see them post such statements all the time and when they say things like in “A17.0 we were forced to kill zombies but in A17.1 we are forced to mine” it’s because the perceived xp gain top provider has shifted.

 
The fixes they have put in so far were things complained about. They do get what is alienating people from A17 and those things they are willing to adjust they are doing. More changes are coming.

Guns are still craftable via parts. They are just different parts. You also still get to use the assembly screen for adding new parts that do a lot more than the old parts. If you want it to be like before then simply don’t shoot your gun until ALL mod slots are filled and it will be just like A16.

LBD: It will never be like it was in A16. There may be some developments in that area but it will be something different. If A16 LBD is a deal breaker for you then you may need to part ways at this point. It’s okay. People pick up new video games all the time.

Item Quality: It makes a huge difference once you have your gun completely finished. In A16 you could assemble one part and it would look like the gun it would become but it wouldn’t work. It would only shoot once you had all five parts in their slots. The only difference with A17 is that you can use your gun at a weak level while you work on completing it. But if you want it to be like A16 just don’t use your gun until all mod slots are filled just the same way it was in A16.

What you don’t get is the nature of developing and experimenting. This is the first project of The Fun Pimps and they are using its development to experiment with different systems which they may or may not use in future projects. The Fun Pimps are actually using early access to give us a glimpse into their actual development of ideas. They have a roadmap of wanting the player’s character to progress and grow more capable even as the world also grows more dangerous. That roadmap has never altered. But they are interested in experimenting with different systems of attaining their design goal. You fell in love with one of the experiments they chose not to use. This doesn’t make them liars nor does it make them directionless. Characters still progress in the game in a way that is enjoyable for many players.

What you want is a game that is pretty much complete but is put into early access for the marketing aspect of it. No big decisions to be made and no major changes because all of those choices were already hashed out before the game released to early access and you get pretty much the same game at the end as you had at the start because the company wasn’t really interested in letting you see the game during that raw experimental and developing process. 7 Days to Die development is a wild ride but as long as you don’t get too attached to any features it has always been rewarding and fun to adapt to the changes.
While I don't always like the way that TFP change things upon release of a new Alpha I am always won over by how the game is changed to fix the problems that arise from the changes while still keeping the changes in the game. This effectively means that with each new

Alpha we get a brand new game to play it's almost like getting new DLC or even a new free version of the game. If the game bothers you so much in its current form than wait until Alpha 17.4 and enjoy because the kinks will be worked out and you will most likely be touting praises for the wonderful new game that TFP have just given you. So thanks to TFP and please keep up the good work.

 
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One interesting and partially-related thing with mining/digging/chopping XP is how inconsistent it is. I've noticed that different levels of tool, Miner 69er, and Mother Lode will give different XP totals for the same task and higher skill does not always equate to more XP. This makes the XP that miners get surprisingly hard to define.
It is a function of the resources you get per swing. So as far as cars goes, if you get an Engine your XP total for the whole car will be a lot more than if you don't. When mining etc, if you take perks that increase your mined resource count, your XP for mining goes up.

 
It is a function of the resources you get per swing. So as far as cars goes, if you get an Engine your XP total for the whole car will be a lot more than if you don't. When mining etc, if you take perks that increase your mined resource count, your XP for mining goes up.
My post was about how that's not actually true. While there is a general upward trend, I've noticed that once I got modded steel tools and 5/5 Miner and Mother Lode, my XP and iron per boulder was actually significantly less than it was with an unmodded iron pick and fewer perks. It went down even further if I mined with power attacks vs. normal attacks. Resource income from mining is not terribly consistent throughout progression and that means the XP gain isn't either.

 
Do not put points in Miner69er. It decreases your yield (and XP), giving the effect you described. I believe this is a bug as the skill is basically useless / detrimental. I reported it several builds ago.

As far as power attacks go, no, you just need to do it right. There will be a pattern of light and power attacks you need to find that gives max yields. I test this stuff a LOT since I am the team's miner. :fat: It is typically (but not always):

power - light - light - light - until dead

And some new numbers, now that I have Steel tools with the right mods and 5/5 Mother Lode...

Chopping one 1200 HP tree = 401 XP

Mining one full boulder = 789 XP

Beat that, Zombie killers.

 
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Guns are still craftable via parts. They are just different parts. You also still get to use the assembly screen for adding new parts that do a lot more than the old parts. If you want it to be like before then simply don’t shoot your gun until ALL mod slots are filled and it will be just like A16..
Nope. The point of the gun parts was once your gun was assembled, all subsequent parts that you found that were higher level gave small, incremental improvements which was very satisfying progression that lasted till the weapon was level 600. There is nothing comparable in A17. In A17 you will have enough mods to fill every slot the moment you can build any particular gun, and there is nowhere to go to improve your guns after tier 6, which is ~level 100 or day 30.

 
so we are back to finding a auger and hitting max level by day 5.

now people will complain because they are max level and bored.

or they are max level and getting high level zombies but their bases are crap because they just auger jockeyed their way up in levels. and are still using crappy weapons and blocks for base.

 
OK before you all hate on me, please know that *I* am my co-op group's dedicated miner. I spend 2 to 3 entire days in each in-game week mining boulders etc, so I am greatly affected by this change. Deep breath, then, and shields up....here we go....
In A17.0, mining boulders and trees was BY FAR the quickest way to level once the player has Iron or Steel tools and is specced for it. I currently get ~200 XP per boulder, and just less than that for a 1200 HP tree. That means that 3 trees or boulders equals killing one zombie.

Believe me when I say that I would be able to harvest MANY more trees and boulders in a day than you could find and kill zombies. Many many more. You need to go find your next zombie which could be anywhere. I just need to walk 10 steps to the next tree or boulder.

In our latest play-through I am 12 levels ahead of the guy who does all the looting and zombie killing.

In short, mining was already extremely OP as an XP-per-hour source from the the mid-game onward.

And it just got buffed....


once you have the tools and the perks sure. But then you dont get loot, you trade loot for exp. Now if Im the combat monster of the party I likely dont have miner 69er, motherlode or any of those perks that make it worth it to mine.

It may be a little much atm but itll get balanced later, they had to buff it a bit for now because it just didnt give enough before to make zombies not the only relevant source of exp

 
power - light - light - light - until dead
And some new numbers, now that I have Steel tools with the right mods and 5/5 Mother Lode...

Chopping one 1200 HP tree = 401 XP

Mining one full boulder = 789 XP

Beat that, Zombie killers.
Go into house, activate spawns, go outside.

Hit, Hit, dead, next, Hit, Hit, dead, next, ... in a nice line for you. Next house, next house ...

Reward: Lots of loot that you can sell and or use and or ....

Or

Place lots of campfires, get lots of screamers ...

Hit, Hit, dead, next, Hit, Hit, dead, next, ... in a nice line for you.

Reward: Lots of loot that you can sell and or use and or ....

Vs

Mining / Harvesting:

power - light - light - light - move, power - light - light - light - move.

Reward: Wood / Stone / Metal /...

=====

A fully upgraded Soldier type player, with level 5 skills ( as in a fair comparison to the described miner type ) and will one or two shot most normal zombies, that gladly line up in a single line for you. More difficult zombies eq more XP / kill, so they balance out the extra time per kill.

Also, while a miner can XP farm trees, at a point all that wood simply becomes useless. Where as a soldier can still get valuable loot from his screamer farming or POIs.

The issue that a miner can now out XP a soldier, is a matter of tweaking the XP gains. Again balancing...

In a sense nothing has really changed to the game . We got this new XP system because the developers disliked "spam crafting" and had issues balancing ( and other supposed misuses ) but we simply get another form of spamming a specific task for XP / gains, that has balancing issues. No big surprise, now is it?

 
I think if the vanilla has good XP progression for a solo, Single Player style of game, but with XP Modifiers in the Game Options, we'll find that people can get the best of all worlds.

A double nice thing that I'd like to see if TFP to setup some game option configurations with a pull down to select different game styles/game modes.

Builder Mode

Arcade Mode

Hardcore Mode

etc...

Then provide a mod ability into that pull down and see what game modes people come up with and what becomes popular. I'd guess modders would love the ability to (which, yeah server config files I know), but modders would probably like a set of Modes they could have as template configuration for general game options and have that show in a game mode list like this. Would be a cool alternative to Server Config files too where they could be straight incorporated into the game settings. I know, it may be simply a shuffling of sorts from a server config file perspective. hmm.

 
A fully upgraded Soldier type player, with level 5 skills ( as in a fair comparison to the described miner type ) and will one or two shot most normal zombies, that gladly line up in a single line for you. More difficult zombies eq more XP / kill, so they balance out the extra time per kill.
As a fully upgraded miner, I am also a fully upgraded (melee) soldier. :cocksure: I can do what you describe very easily (one-shotting if my head-shots are landing). I've tried full days of both activities. There's no comparison.

 
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Because at this point Im not sure the point is getting across about what even the casuals want.
Let me stress that MP play is completely screwed now. People who are designated to stay at base and craft and gather will now be STRONGER than people who go out and fight zombies all day. NO one asked for that. People wanted cooking to be more rewarding, building to be more rewarding etc. NOT mining exploiting back.

At this point I think everyone needs to stop complaining. This whole patch seems to have been a miscommunication in what players actually want.
It really feels like A17 is a watered-down version of A16 now, but with extra POIs and quests.

 
Once you get to the mid game with max strength and picks with full mods.. you 3 hit rocks and 4 hit iron nodes. You get a holy crapload of exp very quickly.. on par and beyond the zombie killing in a house.

And that is for normal A17.. if they bump it in 17.1 that is going to be nuts!

 
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