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A16 - Gnamod
- Thread starter Haidrgna
- Start date
GoatPunishment
Refugee
I've never done a true pillar base either, though in Tin's Dying Lands, I did a single tower on day 7, because I did not have the time to dig out a normal pole defense box.
I wish I knew how to show you my upstairs funnel, but you nailed it with your comment. I start by picking up some mats (usually rocks and clay) and make 10 cobblestone blocks as I run to 0,0. I then nerd pole up 5 blocks (and then create a ledge) and place the beacon up there. Then, I buy the concrete and cobblestone to upgrade and then start building the base. The design is pretty basic, though leaves you with options (I first saw Kage848 do something like this in his 5.1 WotW series, and he got it from somebody named Dan). I don't use ladders, I do ramp tips and wedges, as that is easier for zeds to climb. It is a rush to get the basics done quickly enough for 22:00 on the first night... but if the RNG is good in the bag and beacon, by night 2, I'm usually very well set up and have my side "lookout" towers up so that I can jump over to pick off stragglers that congregate in the blind spots downstairs.
GoatPunishment
Refugee
So many mixed emotions.... I'm SOOO looking forward to this update and version. Really, this is so amazing to play, a great change of pace.
On the other hand, there are SOOO many great options available now for mods (I'm really liking Tin's Dying Lands) and I'm going to test my wares in Multiplayer PVE for the very first time.
I need somebody to mod my RL, put in extended hours and maybe drones to do my job so I can play more 7D2D.
GoatPunishment
Refugee
No, just NO!!!! Bad boy...he.. he.. he.... No I won't add exploding animals but other things exploding?!? I have some ideas
GoatPunishment
Refugee
@dreamdancer
View attachment 1648
Not sure if this works, but here is something that might show my base build. The "B" is where the beacon is. In this version, it is a bit too close to the attack zone... as I miscalculated 1 block. There are ramps going 3 directions to "collect" the zeds to funnel them to the 5x4 attack zone. I have turrets above to help me out (when there is ammo). I also have lookout towers on the side I jump to momentarily so I can shoot under me or on the sides if the Zeds are beating on the sides. I have iron bars as a floor in the attack zone, in case any Zeds congregate there. (this is a new addition to the base).. so I guess that is kinda like a pillar base... so I guess I'm a bit of a liar
View attachment 1648
Not sure if this works, but here is something that might show my base build. The "B" is where the beacon is. In this version, it is a bit too close to the attack zone... as I miscalculated 1 block. There are ramps going 3 directions to "collect" the zeds to funnel them to the 5x4 attack zone. I have turrets above to help me out (when there is ammo). I also have lookout towers on the side I jump to momentarily so I can shoot under me or on the sides if the Zeds are beating on the sides. I have iron bars as a floor in the attack zone, in case any Zeds congregate there. (this is a new addition to the base).. so I guess that is kinda like a pillar base... so I guess I'm a bit of a liar
GoatPunishment
Refugee
View attachment 1649
This is the view out to the attack zone. Needs a bit of repair after fending off night 6 horde.
For the most part, the Zeds will bunch in three spots... in the attack zone where I can melee or have turrets do damage (along with the upside down spikes), or right below me... which I can shoot down while manning the attack zone... or they bunch up and bang on the sides (cause the miss the ramps)... in which case I have to jump over to the lookout towers with 'splody bolts and get back quickly to the attack zone. First play through, I died while over on a tower cause a cop blew up and destroyed the ground under the tower (forgot to build down 3 blocks with concrete... was stressed out).
This is the view out to the attack zone. Needs a bit of repair after fending off night 6 horde.
For the most part, the Zeds will bunch in three spots... in the attack zone where I can melee or have turrets do damage (along with the upside down spikes), or right below me... which I can shoot down while manning the attack zone... or they bunch up and bang on the sides (cause the miss the ramps)... in which case I have to jump over to the lookout towers with 'splody bolts and get back quickly to the attack zone. First play through, I died while over on a tower cause a cop blew up and destroyed the ground under the tower (forgot to build down 3 blocks with concrete... was stressed out).
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dreamdancer
Refugee
Interesting. Once i get in to my build a little, i'll post a pic. It's a lot simpler.
GoatPunishment
Refugee
I'd love to see your build. I've got some ideas on ways to change mine, but don't find the time in GNA Horde mod to do anything but rebuild, upgrade, and find ammo.
I've just joined my first MP server (WotW mod), and will try out my ideas there... when I get enough mats to do it right (and also find the right location). When it is built, I'll post or you can come by and see for yourself.
I've just joined my first MP server (WotW mod), and will try out my ideas there... when I get enough mats to do it right (and also find the right location). When it is built, I'll post or you can come by and see for yourself.
Haidrgna
Tester
When I get to it the singleplayer version should give a player some more time to build his base, currently it sort of balances between single and multiplayer, where in multiplayer the first couple of nights usually are not to hard and for singleplayer you can barely keep up since everything you need to do alone.
Some ideas I have that I will implement over time, is to make repairing a bit easier, I have already increased the strength of repairs on the tools so far which helps out but the concrete blocks and steel ones have so much HP makes it still something that takes to much time, while building a new base would be faster. I am going to try and introduce some kind of repair items that you can make and buy, which just instantly remake a block, but I could also go for that you can repair a block at once with the same block, essentially replacing it. This would however mean you cannot repair a block thats only scratched without losing such a block. I honestly also think repairing a block should be slightly cheaper than replacing it, so a repair kit that cost like 2/3 of what the full block would cost would make repairing actually worth it. Repairing currently is one of the biggest time drains and if you dont you will likely lose a portion or all of your base.
Then I will also look at how fast the forge takes in raw materials, I think it can use a bit of a speed up in general for all of Gnamod, since I am not really planning on adding additional melting slots. Things like iron fragments and clay should go in a bit faster.
Some ideas I have that I will implement over time, is to make repairing a bit easier, I have already increased the strength of repairs on the tools so far which helps out but the concrete blocks and steel ones have so much HP makes it still something that takes to much time, while building a new base would be faster. I am going to try and introduce some kind of repair items that you can make and buy, which just instantly remake a block, but I could also go for that you can repair a block at once with the same block, essentially replacing it. This would however mean you cannot repair a block thats only scratched without losing such a block. I honestly also think repairing a block should be slightly cheaper than replacing it, so a repair kit that cost like 2/3 of what the full block would cost would make repairing actually worth it. Repairing currently is one of the biggest time drains and if you dont you will likely lose a portion or all of your base.
Then I will also look at how fast the forge takes in raw materials, I think it can use a bit of a speed up in general for all of Gnamod, since I am not really planning on adding additional melting slots. Things like iron fragments and clay should go in a bit faster.
dreamdancer
Refugee
Repairing currently isn't that much of a time drain if you have a decent nailgun. The issue is getting a decent nailgun. Frankly, the main time cost is just moving from one block to the next if they've damaged a whole bunch of things. Maybe make a recipe for nail gun parts? Mechanical parts, plastic, and oil? With a decent nailgun, repairs aren't really an issue.
I am kinda iffy about the idea of replacing an existing block being a thing -instead of- repairs as they currently exist. I like being able to flip over to the nailgun or hammer between waves and quickly repair all the damaged blocks. I wouldn't want that to always cost 2/3 of the entire block cost.
Also, I will be a little saddened if your single player version ends up a lot weaker than the current. I am really enjoying the challenge. Just completed night 3 on survivalist, have steel already, 2 crucibles going, have a q190 nailgun, a shotty, and a solid supply of exploding bolts... best start yet.
My concern remains that changing difficulty has no effect on horde size due to you using heatmap hordes instead of GS dependent ones, so any rebalance you do can't be tweaked with difficulty settings.
Other note that comes to mind is, watching Like A Boss play your latest experimental build: The costs of everything have been upped, but the rewards for killing haven't...? This risks a situation where each kill costs more money than they give. At current, the 200c/zed easily recoops any reasonable cost of killing anything other than cops/wights/radiateds, with some to spare for building materials/food/health/repair kits/etc. You always feel like fighting puts you ahead of the game. Change the costs of things too much and this starts to become questionable, at least until you have the capacity to make your own steady supply of ammo. Noticing the high cost of weapons in particular was distressing, given that your starting weapons are random and there is a HUGE gulf in efficacy of weapons for dealing with a horde. If the cost of a Deagle or Shotty is 18k or so, that will put it out of the range of things one can reasonably buy day 1. Which effectively means that a random start that gives, like, a 9mm pistol, a hunting rifle, an smg and a bow is an instant restart. Basically any start that doesn't include at least a shotgun or Deagle, just due to the extreme differences in efficacy and cost efficiency between weapons(for some players/builds, sniper could also be counted, but it's more specialized).
I am kinda iffy about the idea of replacing an existing block being a thing -instead of- repairs as they currently exist. I like being able to flip over to the nailgun or hammer between waves and quickly repair all the damaged blocks. I wouldn't want that to always cost 2/3 of the entire block cost.
Also, I will be a little saddened if your single player version ends up a lot weaker than the current. I am really enjoying the challenge. Just completed night 3 on survivalist, have steel already, 2 crucibles going, have a q190 nailgun, a shotty, and a solid supply of exploding bolts... best start yet.
My concern remains that changing difficulty has no effect on horde size due to you using heatmap hordes instead of GS dependent ones, so any rebalance you do can't be tweaked with difficulty settings.Other note that comes to mind is, watching Like A Boss play your latest experimental build: The costs of everything have been upped, but the rewards for killing haven't...? This risks a situation where each kill costs more money than they give. At current, the 200c/zed easily recoops any reasonable cost of killing anything other than cops/wights/radiateds, with some to spare for building materials/food/health/repair kits/etc. You always feel like fighting puts you ahead of the game. Change the costs of things too much and this starts to become questionable, at least until you have the capacity to make your own steady supply of ammo. Noticing the high cost of weapons in particular was distressing, given that your starting weapons are random and there is a HUGE gulf in efficacy of weapons for dealing with a horde. If the cost of a Deagle or Shotty is 18k or so, that will put it out of the range of things one can reasonably buy day 1. Which effectively means that a random start that gives, like, a 9mm pistol, a hunting rifle, an smg and a bow is an instant restart. Basically any start that doesn't include at least a shotgun or Deagle, just due to the extreme differences in efficacy and cost efficiency between weapons(for some players/builds, sniper could also be counted, but it's more specialized).
Haidrgna
Tester
The prices of raw materials have been reduced greatly, while the costs for most supplies now realistically reflect the raw material cost. Then the amount of cash being given to the player needs to be balanced around that. The current test version does not have the correct perk yet that reduces prices, the prices you see are the highest ones, not the average ones a player will grow to after playing for a few days.
Whats mainly changed on weapon prices is that normal parts became a bit cheaper, while the military parts are three times that base price. If the machine sells only military weapons this means you cannot buy anything. But thats why it will not sell military weapons so often at the start, thats where secret stash will come in.
It will not become easier, it will just not be concrete by day 1, but more likely a lower tier material. The hordes will match that as well, but thats why its a test version, not balanced
The weapons and effectiveness is on my mind as well, the starting pack already has a great influence on how well you will do on the first days, pack balance needs to be addressed and some weaker weapons need to be pulled a bit upwards to make them effective. But yeah starting off with like 2 hunting rifles currently will make it really hard. I probably need to make the packs less random so the combination you get will always have at least one weapon that can cut it.
Whats mainly changed on weapon prices is that normal parts became a bit cheaper, while the military parts are three times that base price. If the machine sells only military weapons this means you cannot buy anything. But thats why it will not sell military weapons so often at the start, thats where secret stash will come in.
It will not become easier, it will just not be concrete by day 1, but more likely a lower tier material. The hordes will match that as well, but thats why its a test version, not balanced
The weapons and effectiveness is on my mind as well, the starting pack already has a great influence on how well you will do on the first days, pack balance needs to be addressed and some weaker weapons need to be pulled a bit upwards to make them effective. But yeah starting off with like 2 hunting rifles currently will make it really hard. I probably need to make the packs less random so the combination you get will always have at least one weapon that can cut it.
dreamdancer
Refugee
I still say having several preset starting packs could be cool. One that contains a decent shotgun, one that contains a Deagle, one that contains a sniper, one with crossbow and a few exploding bolts, one with a spiked club, top tier armor, some beer and a ♥♥♥♥ty pistol or blunderbuss, one with weak weaponry but a solid nailgun, etc. Maybe with the rest random, but at least give -one- type of thing that is guaranteed starting equip, with some player choice of which thing. Also would balance away the opposite end of the spectrum from '2 hunting rifles and a compound bow', where you somehow start with deagle, shotgun, exploding crossbow, and military armor.
dreamdancer
Refugee
I do like the -idea- of "start with something random and learn to adjust", but the disparity between weapons and armors ends up with different starting packs not only being different styles, but vastly different in power level. Especially in terms of armor right now since the store doesn't sell it, and making high end armor requires serious levels, though I know you planned on changing that.
Haidrgna
Tester
The packs as they are now are designed for Nomad Mode. For that mode the initial pack defines the challenge and the setup allows you to loot and find other things as you go. For Horde Mode I am still using that same completely random pack, which includes a chance to get something like a loser pack (that has only one gun and not much stuff) and a winner pack (that has almost all kinds of tools and probably 3 different guns with ammo). That is clearly not completely working out.
I am also really considering making the packs even more basic (only some meds, armors and food), upping the starting cash greatly and basically the machine provides your starting weapons and tools. This obviously would only work if the machine is stocked well enough with stuff to buy in the first few days, enough to fend off the initial hordes. This also only works with the fixed beacon setup or the fixed central spawn, any version where the player would need to move first needs a solid starter pack.
But I am probably going to do weapon pairs for the packs, for nomad as well, to ensure every pack always has 2 Different weapons. Then I can just hand out one of the pairs, maybe leave out the really stupid pairs and have the really strong pairs be less common.
Also getting a nailgun should not be so vital, I hope I can get something working to make sure the other tools are not so weak compared.
I am also really considering making the packs even more basic (only some meds, armors and food), upping the starting cash greatly and basically the machine provides your starting weapons and tools. This obviously would only work if the machine is stocked well enough with stuff to buy in the first few days, enough to fend off the initial hordes. This also only works with the fixed beacon setup or the fixed central spawn, any version where the player would need to move first needs a solid starter pack.
But I am probably going to do weapon pairs for the packs, for nomad as well, to ensure every pack always has 2 Different weapons. Then I can just hand out one of the pairs, maybe leave out the really stupid pairs and have the really strong pairs be less common.
Also getting a nailgun should not be so vital, I hope I can get something working to make sure the other tools are not so weak compared.
dreamdancer
Refugee
Btw, GoatPunisher: Here is at least a bit of a snapshot of my current base
dreamdancer
Refugee
Here it is from the outside looking in, kind of standing where the Zeds gather.
dreamdancer
Refugee
So. Survived 7th night on survivalist. It was not in fact a reprieve. I thought it might be, since I thought the heat hordes would be replaced by just a normal blood moon. But apparently no, more of the same. Only more. Yeesh. Started the night with no coins on my person, ended with over 150000. Have a total of 2397 zombie kills. This is a rather silly mod.
Learned a few things:
1) I think this is about as far as I can go with this mod, sadly. The numbers of zombies just overwhelm my little computer. I can deal with a brief wave of 'too many', that get cleared out with a few exploding bolts, but nonstop all night is not really sustainable. Definitely amusing, regardless, and glad I made it this far, but
2) The store does not produce enough stone to keep a base this size repaired. I have bought it out of stone every day for the past several days.
It is never enough. Though perhaps I am being too greedy, and should just cave and buy finished concrete. And steel. 4 forges making steel constantly is also not enough. Have also bought the store out of iron several times. Not sure if a smaller base would be easier, or just be destroyed more quickly.
3) Reinforced steel seems like a fun idea, but it is not at all sustainable. You will run out and end up with unrepaired blocks, which will be easily destroyed.
4) Too much ammo is never enough. Though thanks to cheesing femurs into the store, I at least kept my supply of exploding bolts sustainable. Now I just have to run to the pond and refill 300 empty glass jars. That's about enough for one night.
5) Finally, an eternal truth: In the end, all bases with rooftop defenses and anti-spider iron bars become pillar bases. Regardless of any intent to do otherwise, eventually one takes to the roof, runs around above the enemies, and rains hell down upon them. Horizontal pole/melee bases are really just pillar bases in potentia.
Probably will quit this, maybe get back onto making my own mod, but might still be up for an MP game. And of course will probably come try it out once you've released another version. All in all, a lot of fun was had.
Learned a few things:
1) I think this is about as far as I can go with this mod, sadly. The numbers of zombies just overwhelm my little computer. I can deal with a brief wave of 'too many', that get cleared out with a few exploding bolts, but nonstop all night is not really sustainable. Definitely amusing, regardless, and glad I made it this far, but
2) The store does not produce enough stone to keep a base this size repaired. I have bought it out of stone every day for the past several days.
It is never enough. Though perhaps I am being too greedy, and should just cave and buy finished concrete. And steel. 4 forges making steel constantly is also not enough. Have also bought the store out of iron several times. Not sure if a smaller base would be easier, or just be destroyed more quickly.
3) Reinforced steel seems like a fun idea, but it is not at all sustainable. You will run out and end up with unrepaired blocks, which will be easily destroyed.
4) Too much ammo is never enough. Though thanks to cheesing femurs into the store, I at least kept my supply of exploding bolts sustainable. Now I just have to run to the pond and refill 300 empty glass jars. That's about enough for one night.
5) Finally, an eternal truth: In the end, all bases with rooftop defenses and anti-spider iron bars become pillar bases. Regardless of any intent to do otherwise, eventually one takes to the roof, runs around above the enemies, and rains hell down upon them. Horizontal pole/melee bases are really just pillar bases in potentia.
Probably will quit this, maybe get back onto making my own mod, but might still be up for an MP game. And of course will probably come try it out once you've released another version. All in all, a lot of fun was had.
Haidrgna
Tester
Yeah the current version is limited because of the horde quickly going over into the most extreme list. Thats why I am working on a new version so that it can be a bit slower everything, giving a player more time to build up his base.
Steel indeed is problematic, I am already thinking on how to solve the problem, but currently it takes way to much polished steel/steel to get a steel block. Repairing the base even if you get enough resources is what becomes a problem at some point.
Zombies are stronger and have more options in the new version, which means I do not need to send larger and larger waves every time. I probably will also put in nights where just normal zeds come so there will be some nights where its just killing time. The current wave of zombies after day 6+ is just insane and not sustainable from that point for a single man unless using a lot of cheezy tactics.
Steel indeed is problematic, I am already thinking on how to solve the problem, but currently it takes way to much polished steel/steel to get a steel block. Repairing the base even if you get enough resources is what becomes a problem at some point.
Zombies are stronger and have more options in the new version, which means I do not need to send larger and larger waves every time. I probably will also put in nights where just normal zeds come so there will be some nights where its just killing time. The current wave of zombies after day 6+ is just insane and not sustainable from that point for a single man unless using a lot of cheezy tactics.
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