PC A suggestion to fix the economy: NO MORE DUKES

It does not really matter what currency you use.

In this game (like many) it's easy to generate value and prices are fixed with variations based on your barter skill.

It is inevitable that players "win" the trading game.

Inflation would delay and possibly "fix" that but it would have to be war economy inflation to make a dent and no one wants that insanity. LOL

 
I agree with Gazz on this one.

I don’t think 7D2D should be a full fledged market economy simulator.

There are other “issues” which should be tackled first.

 
Would be nice if prices couldf have dependencies like Range to next biome of kind x, Player reputation and more.

(Maybe together with a system that allow players to clear and repair Industrial Pois)

If we can get this (maybe after going gold) we could make a nice economy mod.

But this is anyway still a long way.

 
It does not really matter what currency you use.
In this game (like many) it's easy to generate value and prices are fixed with variations based on your barter skill.

It is inevitable that players "win" the trading game.

Inflation would delay and possibly "fix" that but it would have to be war economy inflation to make a dent and no one wants that insanity. LOL
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What matters is that you have enough sinks to siphon out the currency that is being given as rewards on a bullet point feature that you use to buy goods from another bullet point feature of your game. Players should always feel squeezed for currency until they reach the end game. This is the role of a systems designer to build in that sense of progression and encourage moments when the player will engage in content so that they can achieve their goal.

Why would players engage in T5 quests that cost them hundreds of ammo to complete when they will get an item that will probably be sold for dukes, xp that they don't really need at that point, and more dukes that they can't use because there is nothing worth purchasing? This is the underlying problem being discussed in this thread not mudflation. This issue is why there are multiple threads about the difficulty of gamestage, the difficulty of t5 quests, the lackluster reception of loot at higher levels, and the state of the economy.

So, no, it is not about winning the trading game or combating mudflation. It is about bullet point features on the box not functioning together as a cohesive unit to make for an engaging experience for the player. Specifically that currency as a driver and reward breaks after 7-14 days of gameplay.

 
What matters is that you have enough sinks to siphon out the currency that is being given as rewards on a bullet point feature that you use to buy goods from another bullet point feature of your game. Players should always feel squeezed for currency until they reach the end game. This is the role of a systems designer to build in that sense of progression and encourage moments when the player will engage in content so that they can achieve their goal.
Why would players engage in T5 quests that cost them hundreds of ammo to complete when they will get an item that will probably be sold for dukes, xp that they don't really need at that point, and more dukes that they can't use because there is nothing worth purchasing? This is the underlying problem being discussed in this thread not mudflation. This issue is why there are multiple threads about the difficulty of gamestage, the difficulty of t5 quests, the lackluster reception of loot at higher levels, and the state of the economy.

So, no, it is not about winning the trading game or combating mudflation. It is about bullet point features on the box not functioning together as a cohesive unit to make for an engaging experience for the player. Specifically that currency as a driver and reward breaks after 7-14 days of gameplay.
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Thank god at least one person gets it. There are so many responses here that miss the point entirely that I had given up.

 
Ammo is too easy to make.
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That can obviously be changed...did you miss the part where I said that some serious thought would have to go into balancing the ammo recipes vs item costs?

It's not a system that completely sorts itself, but the massive advantage it has over the existing Duke system or a theoretical credit system is a natural sink of escalating strength. As gamestage goes up you encounter more and tougher zombies requiring you to expend more and more ammo.

Your capacity to gather and craft also goes up in that time, giving you the feeling of progression, but you'll never hit a point where you're sitting on a pile of ammo thinking "what to do with this?"

I'm not sure how, but that last point seems completely lost on most of the posters here, including Gazz, which scares me a bit.

 
What matters is that you have enough sinks to siphon out the currency that is being given as rewards on a bullet point feature that you use to buy goods from another bullet point feature of your game. Players should always feel squeezed for currency until they reach the end game. This is the role of a systems designer to build in that sense of progression and encourage moments when the player will engage in content so that they can achieve their goal.
Why would players engage in T5 quests that cost them hundreds of ammo to complete when they will get an item that will probably be sold for dukes, xp that they don't really need at that point, and more dukes that they can't use because there is nothing worth purchasing? This is the underlying problem being discussed in this thread not mudflation. This issue is why there are multiple threads about the difficulty of gamestage, the difficulty of t5 quests, the lackluster reception of loot at higher levels, and the state of the economy.

So, no, it is not about winning the trading game or combating mudflation. It is about bullet point features on the box not functioning together as a cohesive unit to make for an engaging experience for the player. Specifically that currency as a driver and reward breaks after 7-14 days of gameplay.
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Right. And if what we have now was all we were ever gonna have I would be there with you. But you are putting a lot of thought and criticism on a partly-done system. Tier 5 quests are done but the legendary loot that will be the reward is still not in the game.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't critique but there is a very good reason the bullet points aren't working together cohesively yet. It's the other as of yet missing bullet points you aren't considering.

Dukes are the enforced currency by the Duke but the Duke and his casino are not in the game yet.

There are tier 5 quests but their intended rewards are not in the game yet.

Bandits and the Duke himself are the most dangerous threats in the game but they are not yet implemented.

If you could at least acknowledge the missing parts when discussing the current status then it gives a better idea of the whole picture. I believe that the casino tokens will be useful as currency and also fit in with the lore of the game. I believe that there will be loot worth doing a tier 5 quest to obtain and that you probably won't want to sell it but use it to help you survive against the bandit incursions into your world beyond what the zombies can do now.

I can tell you for a certainty that the reason there are so many threads complaining about partially done systems is because their authors are treating them as if they are the final intended versions. Some are even saying that the devs shouldn't release anything until its complete-- in an early access game!

 
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It's not a system that completely sorts itself, but the massive advantage it has over the existing Duke system or a theoretical credit system is a natural sink of escalating strength. As gamestage goes up you encounter more and tougher zombies requiring you to expend more and more ammo.
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Your ammo system is practically equivalent to the current system with the trader having unlimited ammo in stock. The natural sink, i.e. the zombies already exist. We already buy up all the ammo the trader has.

 
Right. And if what we have now was all we were ever gonna have I would be there with you. But you are putting a lot of thought and criticism on a partly-done system. Tier 5 quests are done but the legendary loot that will be the reward is still not in the game.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't critique but there is a very good reason the bullet points aren't working together cohesively yet. It's the other as of yet missing bullet points you aren't considering.

Dukes are the enforced currency by the Duke but the Duke and his casino are not in the game yet.

There are tier 5 quests but their intended rewards are not in the game yet.

Bandits and the Duke himself are the most dangerous threats in the game but they are not yet implemented.

If you could at least acknowledge the missing parts when discussing the current status then it gives a better idea of the whole picture. I believe that the casino tokens will be useful as currency and also fit in with the lore of the game. I believe that there will be loot worth doing a tier 5 quest to obtain and that you probably won't want to sell it but use it to help you survive against the bandit incursions into your world beyond what the zombies can do now.

I can tell you for a certainty that the reason there are so many threads complaining about partially done systems is because their authors are treating them as if they are the final intended versions. Some are even saying that the devs shouldn't release anything until its complete-- in an early access game!
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That's fine, but where is the sink? With Dukes, every player eventually hits a point where there simply are no more sinks...nothing to spend their money on. The ammo as currency idea solves this problem as there are always more zombies to shoot and their numbers will always continue to rise as gamestage increases.

I don't see how the addition of legendary loot changes this situation. Even if that loot is available for purchase at extremely high prices, it doesn't eliminate the problem, only delay it until the player has bought or otherwise acquired all the legendary loot. Then we are right back where we started...with piles of useless Dukes.

If I understand what you're saying about the casino, there will also be some kind of gambling as an option, but that doesn't solve the problem either. After all, what are we gambling for? What's the reward? More useless Dukes? More legendary items that we already have?

The reason that this problem has become so severe and engendered so many complaints is the unlimited repair possibility introduced in A17. Items have become completely static elements of the economy instead of dynamic drivers. Maybe you and the devs don't like the ammo as currency idea, but something has to change to avoid this inevitable economic death.

 
The reason that this problem has become so severe and engendered so many complaints is the unlimited repair possibility introduced in A17.
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Afaik they do want to find a good way to make repair meaningful again - they wouldn't possibly leave it like that.

 
Afaik they do want to find a good way to make repair meaningful again - they wouldn't possibly leave it like that.
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Okay, I don't read the dev diary thread regularly, so maybe I'm just uninformed. What's the plan?

Whatever it is, it's pretty counterintuitive because this particular problem didn't exist in A16. The old system used items as a dynamic sink for Dukes and/or resources as you had to constantly invest in keeping your pink quality tools/weapons pink. Now it's one and done, so it's hard to see why the change was made if there was any thought being given to the role of repair in the overall economy.

 
Okay, I don't read the dev diary thread regularly, so maybe I'm just uninformed. What's the plan?
Whatever it is, it's pretty counterintuitive because this particular problem didn't exist in A16. The old system used items as a dynamic sink for Dukes and/or resources as you had to constantly invest in keeping your pink quality tools/weapons pink. Now it's one and done, so it's hard to see why the change was made if there was any thought being given to the role of repair in the overall economy.
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I almost never read that abomination of a thread, but I remember Roland saying something about repair possibly changing in the future when A17ex was launched.

I agree that repair should have downsides, however I don't think lowered quality should be one of them with this new system. I also wouldn't like its max durability to be lowered on repair. I would find both of these annoying. I'd prefer something like - a chance for the item to be completely scrapped instead of repaired. Repair perks would lower that chance, but never lower than, say, 20%. Straightforward, no inventory management and annoyingly low durability or sub-par quality items I would just scrap anyway. Expect people to riot if it happens, because they are used to the current repair, as usual.

 
So, no, it is not about winning the trading game or combating mudflation. It is about bullet point features on the box not functioning together as a cohesive unit to make for an engaging experience for the player. Specifically that currency as a driver and reward breaks after 7-14 days of gameplay.
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Mmm hmm. But if currency/trading are turned into an integral part of the game then it becomes a different game where you cannot proceed without traders.

Right now you have the option to head out into the great unknown and never set foot inside a trader's compound.

Tying it into a "cohesive experience" would make this much easier because you would be required to constantly spend dukes to survive.

Pretty much like the item shop at the end of a round in [insert game].

You also could not be allowed to generate value just out of the blue, like by crafting or looting and selling items. For a proper balance only certain rewards that the trader gives you, such as quest rewards, could be legal tender.

That would be totally doable and a lot easier to do but... who wants to play that game?

I'm not making this up, BTW. In an MMO you would grind your quest/hero/raid/valor/etc points and spend them on the trader that is local to this content only.

That makes it a completely encapsulated economy and easy to balance.

No matter how cool it sounds, using bullets as currency or having dukes scrap to brass solves nothing. The currency item is not an issue at all.

 
yup... on my personal play games of 7dtd (when not testing), i do not and will not use or talk to any traders.... i play nomad on sp only and i dont need money nor traders. i just go about the country side killing zombies and just finding enough food to eat and take my time doing it. the bad thing about my style is.... i enjoy it and each new game i choose something a little different to do so i am never bored.

so you are correct gazz.... the traders are not the core of the game... the actual core of the game is a player's imagination. but we dont all play the same way and that is proven fact... :)

i know some will not agree with my opinion but its mine and no one can change how i do things my way and i damn sure am not telling others how to play. :)

 
The coins are supposed to be made of brass, the most valuable commodity in the apocalypse because you can make ammo from brass. Why it can't be smelted is a bug or a design I wasn't in on.

 
The coins are supposed to be made of brass, the most valuable commodity in the apocalypse because you can make ammo from brass. Why it can't be smelted is a bug or a design I wasn't in on.
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Interesting, so we may be able to smelt Dukes for brass in the future?

 
The coins are supposed to be made of brass, the most valuable commodity in the apocalypse because you can make ammo from brass. Why it can't be smelted is a bug or a design I wasn't in on.
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Well that at least makes sense. If this design/bug is changed/fixed, that goes a nice step toward fixing the problem.

I still wonder though, why the abstraction? What is the actual gameplay purpose of having a separate item that is used as currency that is only considered valuable because you can make ammo with it? If ammo is the source of the value, it seems silly introducing this "middle man" item.

 
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