PC A solution to the "Run away from hordes" problem.

[RipClaw]

Introduce colonists to defend.

You don't ~have~ to defend them, but then you lose whatever benefits your fledgling bastion of civilization was providing.

-The special recipe that having colonist Jimmy Oswego offers.

-The almost effective rifle that Justine Rogers carries.

-The quick medical patch-up that Doc Felix Farnsworth provides.

They start arriving once you lay down a "Colony Block". They don't arrive quickly. Some may only be available as a result of quests.

There's the incentive to stay and fight the horde.

There's the incentive to build a multi-layered fortress designed not just to keep the Zs out, but to keep colonists alive.

All the excitement of having to decide if you can hold out 'till sunrise, or bail out to save your own bacon.

No new zombies required and seemingly only minor tweaks to the AI...

...adding a whole new dimension to the game.

-Morloc

That would be an interesting gameplay and definitely an improvement of the game.

The NPCs wouldn't even have to be very sophisticated. It's enough if they act similar to the trader. For example, they could give you quests.

 

[Roland]

Just look at the chess rules (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_chess) and show me any rule that isn't restricting you. Sure, most of these rules tell you what you can do, but they also tell you the limits. For example:
"A rook moves any number of vacant squares in a horizontal or vertical direction. It also is moved when castling."

This tells you what you can do with a rook, but it also tells you that you can't move the rook diagonally. This rule is restricting your choice, to put it bluntly

and what pray tell is the replay value of Chess?

Back in 1060 BC the game was so much more sandbox!

 

[meganoth]

You gave me just the right example for the logic. Now it's no longer about whether something improves the horde night, but just about the discussion of whether avoiding the horde is OP or not. All your suggestions are only aimed at stopping a behaviour that you consider undesirable. No thought is given to whether or not this will improve the game and what side effects it will have on players who are actually fighting the horde.

It will improve the game because it is better balanced. If it has no side effects you can plug it into the game and nobody will notice. Except those few who wanted to use that overpowered device so they would need to use the game option. Why is that an improvement? A game option is a bigger psychological barrier. The difference is similar to whether the vanilla game has a built-in overpowered weapon or the user mods the game to change a well-balanced weapon into an overpowered weapon.

The more surgical the method that prevents vehicles from being the carefree escape the less side effects there are. I gave two examples, one would have no side effects on base defense at all and the other could have a beneficial effect on base defense if it works on all electric devices (because it would be an interesting end game zombie). Take your pick.

I'm saying that I don't think that avoiding the horde is OP. If you avoid the horde you get no XP and no loot. On the other hand if you build a base you get XP for upgrading the blocks, XP for collecting resources, XP for killing the zombies and you get loot. Maybe not a good loot but at least loot. And the whole discussion then revolves around that.

The few loot bags you get are a drop in an ocean compared to the expenses. If you are after the xp you can just collect resources for xp and sell them or put blocks randomly anywhere and upgrade them all day, the zombie xp is also easily gotten in a few pois and you can always insert a refreshment break between waves if the last one did damage you a bit.

And by the way, there are other ways to escape the horde. Not only by driving around at horde night.

You can swim on a lake. In the water the zombies don't spawn at all. You can also just drop off everything and let the horde kill you all night long. As a side effect, you always have a low gamestage. All these methods have in common that they are boring.

Pointing to other problems or holes doesn't make this go away. The death loop at least has a death debuff for half a day (maybe still stacking? I don't know), by the way. A real (if still too weak) downside.

Boring is actually an argument I would accept, this being a sandbox game as well. But this is also a survival/horror game! For example a danger added to vehicles on horde night makes this still a sandbox game, but is nearly a requirement for the survival/horror game.

 

[RipClaw]

It will improve the game because it is better balanced. If it has no side effects you can plug it into the game and nobody will notice. Except those few who wanted to use that overpowered device so they would need to use the game option. Why is that an improvement? A game option is a bigger psychological barrier. The difference is similar to whether the vanilla game has a built-in overpowered weapon or the user mods the game to change a well-balanced weapon into an overpowered weapon.

But this is not about changing the damage values of a weapon. It is not about weapons at all. An OP weapon would give me XP and loot. Avoiding the horde gives me nothing but boring 15 minutes.

The longer I think about it, the less it becomes clear to me why it all has to do with balancing at all. To avoid the horde is to trade that you survive at the expense of XP, loot and fun.

The more surgical the method that prevents vehicles from being the carefree escape the less side effects there are. I gave two examples, one would have no side effects on base defense at all and the other could have a beneficial effect on base defense if it works on all electric devices (because it would be an interesting end game zombie). Take your pick.

Both solutions would require additional development effort.

The additional mole zombies would probably need additional CPU capacity at horde night. And something like the EMP zombie is nothing like anything that is already implemented in the game. A routine would first have to be implemented to temporarily switch off the electrical traps. I wouldn't necessarily call an EMP zombie interesting. Since I like to use electric traps I would call him rather annoying.

The few loot bags you get are a drop in an ocean compared to the expenses. If you are after the xp you can just collect resources for xp and sell them or put blocks randomly anywhere and upgrade them all day, the zombie xp is also easily gotten in a few pois and you can always insert a refreshment break between waves if the last one did damage you a bit.

Just because I fight the horde doesn't mean I can't do anything else for the rest of the week. And the few resources I have to use to fight the horde aren't worth mentioning. I often collect resources just for fun and I build just for fun. Last week I finished a work base where more than half of the used resources are only used to make the base look good. I talk about 10000-15000 cement mix, 700 iron spikes and about 10000 paint.

I fought the day 56 horde this weekend. Then I repaired the base and refilled the traps. Afterwards I did a level 4 quest and collected a lot of electrical parts, mechanical parts and some brass. And I also got some XP and since I killed all zombies with my iron club, I didn't use a single bullet. So I left the POI with a surplus of ammo. By the way, this is the case with most POIs.

Next, I maybe go to the mine to collect resources or drive to the traders to sell what I got by looting the POIs to get some new quests. I also buy ammo for the next horde from the traders.

I don't feel that fighting the horde has any disadvantages for me. Probably simply because I don't think about what would happen if I avoided the horde. Probably I'd rather turn the horde off than avoid it because it's pretty boring to drive around all night.

Pointing to other problems or holes doesn't make this go away. The death loop at least has a death debuff for half a day (maybe still stacking? I don't know), by the way. A real (if still too weak) downside.

The death debuff doesn't stack and there's worse than half a day of sorting boxes in the base.

The fact that I show alternative possibilities should make it clear that even if the developers decide to restrict the possibility to avoid the horde with a vehicle, the discussion will not end. You can assume that the discussion will continue with these other possibilities.

Before A17, the target of this discussion where players with underground bases. Some even called the underground bases "I win" buttons. Now we have digging zombies and the next possibility to avoid the horde is being targeted. As long as there is even the slightest chance to avoid the horde, some players will feel bothered. But who always only looks for the next hair in the soup will never be able to enjoy the soup.

 

[SilverWolf]

I still can't understand why is this subject discussed so seriously from time to time when there are many other more important mechanics that need to be finished/balanced, and we have yet to see new ones in a18 and future alphas..

And that chess comparison made me laugh a bit too much, lol.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I was thinking, if they can just make the vehicles situation a little more dangerous on horde night, like as MM suggested with zeds jumping in front of moving vehicles... and then couple that with a much worse death penalty, it would solve almost half of the problem. Sure, you can still avoid the horde, and perhaps you should be able to if you really have no options... but doing so should be very dangerous.

There are other things to resolve as discussed a hundred times in this thread and others. However, if this went in, it might be easier to reevaluate the situation.

The second-worse problem is probably people logging out in MP. The only thing I can think of at the moment, instead of providing a reward for the group, would be to tone down the shared experience at normal times, but boost it up a lot during BM to compensate. This of course only applies when a server has BM on.

What remains to be solved would just be down to tweaking zombie AI, I think... which I am sure will be an ongoing effort for quite some time.

 

[OzHawkeye]

I was thinking, if they can just make the vehicles situation a little more dangerous on horde night, like as MM suggested with zeds jumping in front of moving vehicles... and then couple that with a much worse death penalty, it would solve almost half of the problem. Sure, you can still avoid the horde, and perhaps you should be able to if you really have no options... but doing so should be very dangerous.
There are other things to resolve as discussed a hundred times in this thread and others. However, if this went in, it might be easier to reevaluate the situation.

The second-worse problem is probably people logging out in MP. The only thing I can think of at the moment, instead of providing a reward for the group, would be to tone down the shared experience at normal times, but boost it up a lot during BM to compensate. This of course only applies when a server has BM on.

What remains to be solved would just be down to tweaking zombie AI, I think... which I am sure will be an ongoing effort for quite some time.

Given you're acknowledging that "fixing vehicles" would only, or not even, fix half the problem of horde avoidance, do you think its still worth spending DevTime on doing it?

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Given you're acknowledging that "fixing vehicles" would only, or not even, fix half the problem of horde avoidance, do you think its still worth spending DevTime on doing it?

Yes, because I doubt the amount of time to add in a parameter for zombies to jump in front of moving vehicles (or vultures in front of gyrocopter) is more than the time they invested in other things to improve horde night, let alone the total amount of time they invested in creating the event in the first place. If you invest 1000 person-hours into something (I'm positive that BM was even more than this total) but it doesn't quite deliver what it was intended to, then investing even 100 hours of work to get it closer to what was envisioned is a no-brainer.

The concept of the XP sharing during BM should be very easy. It's just some extra logic and variable slinging. I wouldn't doubt if a pimp could do that in a day.

The AI in general during BM has been and will continue to be worked on as well... so it's not like they feel that the feature is complete anyway.

 

[Dimpy]

Definitely, but no matter the reward, anything will automatically be devalued, since the player will catch on he is being rewarded only for the sake of being rewarded - towards no end. That's why I think that a rewarding BM is a terrible idea. Might be even worse than zip-lines.
And as you say, even if that wasn't the case, you would have to reward the player with something that surpasses the costs of BM zombie wave farming (because that's how we will start calling it) and something that will last and neither become obsolete after a few blood moons, nor make other items obsolete.

How about this: they give you base-building materials. Specifically, when zombies hit stuff, they collect resources from it like you do. When they die, they drop the resources so you can pick them back up, process them, and use them to rebuild the base.

There is a reward for killing zombies during horde night, but at the same time the zombies are definitely not a loot delivery service.

 

[OzHawkeye]

Yes, because I doubt the amount of time to add in a parameter for zombies to jump in front of moving vehicles (or vultures in front of gyrocopter) is more than the time they invested in other things to improve horde night, let alone the total amount of time they invested in creating the event in the first place. If you invest 1000 person-hours into something (I'm positive that BM was even more than this total) but it doesn't quite deliver what it was intended to, then investing even 100 hours of work to get it closer to what was envisioned is a no-brainer.The concept of the XP sharing during BM should be very easy. It's just some extra logic and variable slinging. I wouldn't doubt if a pimp could do that in a day.

The AI in general during BM has been and will continue to be worked on as well... so it's not like they feel that the feature is complete anyway.

I think the answer will be in whether the Pimps decide to do anything to fix the issue or not. Personally, I doesn't bother me much either way, so my preference would be to fix it only if it is easily fixed, but the Pimps will have to make their own "cost/benefit analysis" and work out how much time it'll take to fix, how effective or not that fix is, and whether it's worth the time it'll take.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I think the answer will be in whether the Pimps decide to do anything to fix the issue or not. Personally, I doesn't bother me much either way, so my preference would be to fix it only if it is easily fixed, but the Pimps will have to make their own "cost/benefit analysis" and work out how much time it'll take to fix, how effective or not that fix is, and whether it's worth the time it'll take.

Then why you askin' me? lol

It's like you asked me what I think just so you could come back with something disappointing.

 

[OzHawkeye]

Then why you askin' me? lol
It's like you asked me what I think just so you could come back with something disappointing.

No, not at all. I was genuinely curious to know if you felt your fixes were still worth it, even though you acknowledged they were, at best, only partial fixes.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

No, not at all. I was genuinely curious to know if you felt your fixes were still worth it, even though you acknowledged they were, at best, only partial fixes.

Half the solution to a big problem using a relatively easy method. Nah, nvm. Idea sucks.

 

[OzHawkeye]

Half the solution to a big problem using a relatively easy method. Nah, nvm. Idea sucks.

Aww, now I feel guilty I may have dispirited you. ;-)

 

[Roland]

I still can't understand why is this subject discussed so seriously from time to time when there are many other more important mechanics that need to be finished/balanced, and we have yet to see new ones in a18 and future alphas..
And that chess comparison made me laugh a bit too much, lol.

Because we are all nerds at the height of our rage.

 

[meganoth]

But this is not about changing the damage values of a weapon. It is not about weapons at all. An OP weapon would give me XP and loot. Avoiding the horde gives me nothing but boring 15 minutes.
The longer I think about it, the less it becomes clear to me why it all has to do with balancing at all. To avoid the horde is to trade that you survive at the expense of XP, loot and fun.

An OP weapon would give security and a sense of power first and foremost. I can kill any zombie with any weapon in the game and it will give me xp and loot just as well as an OP weapon. But the safety it gives me to handle any number of zombies is "wonderful" for the player, but deadly for the fun because the variety is lost. You really think anyone will think about xp if he gets his fingers on an OP weapon?

A motorbike on horde night gives security too. See the similarity?

Both solutions would require additional development effort.

The additional mole zombies would probably need additional CPU capacity at horde night. And something like the EMP zombie is nothing like anything that is already implemented in the game. A routine would first have to be implemented to temporarily switch off the electrical traps. I wouldn't necessarily call an EMP zombie interesting. Since I like to use electric traps I would call him rather annoying.

Oh yes, those would need dev effort, I brought them up as examples of scalpell and broad stroke measures. If you want to hear about a solution with almost no effort and some loss of immersion TFP could just declare the blood moon makes all vehicles inoperable, including the bike. Because.

With some more effort, but still less than the moles: Cops should spawn in front of vehicles if they are driven on horde night and cop spit should make vehicles inoperable for a time.

The EMP zombie is obviously totally uninteresting if you DON'T use electric traps. Whether it may be interesting to people depends on their playstyle. Since you prefer to sit around in your horde base and let the traps do all the work (which is totally legitimate) it won't work for you, but I didn't just talk about you.

Before A17, the target of this discussion where players with underground bases. Some even called the underground bases "I win" buttons. Now we have digging zombies and the next possibility to avoid the horde is being targeted. As long as there is even the slightest chance to avoid the horde, some players will feel bothered. But who always only looks for the next hair in the soup will never be able to enjoy the soup.

You know what, at the moment I'm building a crafting underground base in just 25 blocks depth exactly to play around with digging zombies. At least that change was (in my book) a complete success.

On the other hand nerfing vehicles on horde night will give me personally nothing, in-game it doesn't disturb me or change anything for me at all. I'm just aware that for a well balanced game this is something that has to be addressed. If I were developer of 7D2D, I would address this.

 

[Morloc]

Because we are all nerds at the height of our rage.

-Morloc

 

[Sparks]

Greetings

It's all moot to me. I run at the hordes not away from them. 7 days to Die is the name of the game. 7 days to get set to fight the horde...or ...die. Why play this game if you run from the hordes? But then everyone has their own way of doing things eh. Fair enough. :fat:

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

The on/off would be an option if it wouldn´t mess with your game, things get messed up if you turn it off and on again. I tried that once because i messed up my base and didn´t want to drive around all night, gave me daily hordes after that instead of every 7 days. So not an option because it simply doesn´t work.

So yeah let people avoid hordes when ever they feel like it, for whatever reason, be it just for one hordenight or more. And don´t avoid them for yourself. What is the problem there? Don´t do it, let other´s do it. What do you gain if there is no option to avoid it? Or is this about a lack of selfcontrol here?

I really don´t see the point, when it is so easy to solve by just not avoiding them yourself unless you have no selfcontrol ofc.

Also you know what´s gonna happen in MP if you can´t avoid them? People will just leave and wait it out offline.

 

[RipClaw]

An OP weapon would give security and a sense of power first and foremost. I can kill any zombie with any weapon in the game and it will give me xp and loot just as well as an OP weapon. But the safety it gives me to handle any number of zombies is "wonderful" for the player, but deadly for the fun because the variety is lost. You really think anyone will think about xp if he gets his fingers on an OP weapon?
A motorbike on horde night gives security too. See the similarity?

My base also gives me security. I don't consider building the base to be an effort but just a lot of fun and I'm not interested in the resources. So do you want to take the base away from me just because it gives me security ?

Not everyone is looking for thrills. Not everyone wants to experience a roller coaster of emotions. Some just want to have fun with the game.

Avoiding the horde is rather boring. Building bases and collecting resources is fun for me. That's all I think about and what interests me. I play only singleplayer. I don't care what anyone else does in their game. And even if I would play on a server I wouldn't care what another player does on the server.

Oh yes, those would need dev effort, I brought them up as examples of scalpell and broad stroke measures. If you want to hear about a solution with almost no effort and some loss of immersion TFP could just declare the blood moon makes all vehicles inoperable, including the bike. Because.

I'm already looking forward to the bugs that will be randomly triggered resulting in not working vehicles regardless if there is a horde or not. It's not like we don't have enough problems with vehicles already.

With some more effort, but still less than the moles: Cops should spawn in front of vehicles if they are driven on horde night and cop spit should make vehicles inoperable for a time.

Could be done, but what if you're at your base? Then the cop spawns right in your base behind your defense. Have fun with it.

The EMP zombie is obviously totally uninteresting if you DON'T use electric traps. Whether it may be interesting to people depends on their playstyle. Since you prefer to sit around in your horde base and let the traps do all the work (which is totally legitimate) it won't work for you, but I didn't just talk about you.

I use electric traps because they are more durable than purely mechanical traps.

Even the iron spikes can only withstand a few zombies before they break. In order to achieve even a small effect, you have to set up huge amounts of spikes. And to use them efficiently, you have to dig trenches and place the spikes in them. If you don't do that, the zombies simply take the path the other zombies have already cleared.

I could certainly design a hybrid defense to compensate for a power outage. In my current base I have elements that slow the zombies down if they make it through the traps and run towards my shark cage. All I have to do is extend these measures and just pack more ammo in case such a stupid EMP zombie comes along. And depending on how this works with the power failure, I'd have to move the position of the generator so that I can restart it if it doesn't happen automatically.

You know what, at the moment I'm building a crafting underground base in just 25 blocks depth exactly to play around with digging zombies. At least that change was (in my book) a complete success.

If you're into stuffing holes, have fun doing it. I honestly doubt you can speak of success with the digging zombies. Now they're digging through stairs instead of using them.

What bothers me about the digging zombies is that they always disturb me at work. Almost like colleagues in the office.

On the other hand nerfing vehicles on horde night will give me personally nothing, in-game it doesn't disturb me or change anything for me at all. I'm just aware that for a well balanced game this is something that has to be addressed. If I were developer of 7D2D, I would address this.

If you were a 7 Days developer, you'd have more important things to do than worry about something like this. I am a system administrator and also develop my own tools. So I know that most of the work is not noticed by the users at all because it takes place below the surface.

As players, we have the luxury of not having to worry about basic things like keeping memory consumption low despite high resolution textures. It took until A17 until they solved this problem. And they have still a lot of other stuff to do.