PC A solution to the "Run away from hordes" problem.

[RestInPieces]

would immediately devalue

Definitely, but no matter the reward, anything will automatically be devalued, since the player will catch on he is being rewarded only for the sake of being rewarded - towards no end. That's why I think that a rewarding BM is a terrible idea. Might be even worse than zip-lines.

And as you say, even if that wasn't the case, you would have to reward the player with something that surpasses the costs of BM zombie wave farming (because that's how we will start calling it) and something that will last and neither become obsolete after a few blood moons, nor make other items obsolete.

 

[RipClaw]

What’s funny is that when the same debate was happening about digging zombies the people against it said that if there was just an option to turn digging zombies on/off then that would end the debate for them.
Guess we can see that ain’t true at all. Even with an on/off switch they still want to fight against changes to things they will just turn off anyway...

Things are a little different here than with the digging zombies. With digging zombies, it's about being completely safe in an underground base or mine at all times when digging zombies are disabled. This is independent of the horde night.

This discussion is about making it difficult or even impossible to survive outside the base for a specific period of time. This affects not only the possibility of avoiding the horde but also other possibilities.

For example, you could retreat to a replacement base or a fallback position if the first line of defense is overrun by zombies.

Another scenario is open constructions without a roof. Some of the measures discussed to prevent a player from fleeing from the horde suggest creating a hostile environment outside the base. But if I'm standing on the roof of my base and fighting the horde from there, then I'm outside my base. This is also often the case on day 7 and day 14 when using a POI as a horde base. Hardly any player invests time and resources to build a roof to protect himself from vultures in these first two weeks.

Another, and probably rare, scenario is that a player is fighting the Horde on the street on foot. I know of at least 2 players who basically do this because everything else is too boring for them. So they don't have a base to defend. That might be the exception, but I wanted to mention it.

Some measures that have been proposed also change the behavior of the zombies and it also affects those who fight the horde in the base, e.g. increasing the speed of the zombies. Players who fight the zombies by hand with weapons and don't use traps would be as affected as players who want to avoid the Horde.

Some of the measures that have been suggested, however, also would change the behaviour of the zombies and it would also affect those who fight the horde in the base. In this thread it was suggested to increase the speed of the zombies. Players who fight the zombies by hand with weapons and don't use traps would be affected as well as players who want to avoid the horde. But certain traps would also be affected. The turrets, for example, might not be able to hit such fast zombies anymore or would only fire 1-2 rounds before the zombie has crossed the target area.

 

[Dimpy]

Things are a little different here than with the digging zombies. With digging zombies, it's about being completely safe in an underground base or mine at all times when digging zombies are disabled. This is independent of the horde night.
This discussion is about making it difficult or even impossible to survive outside the base for a specific period of time. This affects not only the possibility of avoiding the horde but also other possibilities.

For example, you could retreat to a replacement base or a fallback position if the first line of defense is overrun by zombies.

Another scenario is open constructions without a roof. Some of the measures discussed to prevent a player from fleeing from the horde suggest creating a hostile environment outside the base. But if I'm standing on the roof of my base and fighting the horde from there, then I'm outside my base. This is also often the case on day 7 and day 14 when using a POI as a horde base. Hardly any player invests time and resources to build a roof to protect himself from vultures in these first two weeks.

Another, and probably rare, scenario is that a player is fighting the Horde on the street on foot. I know of at least 2 players who basically do this because everything else is too boring for them. So they don't have a base to defend. That might be the exception, but I wanted to mention it.

Some measures that have been proposed also change the behavior of the zombies and it also affects those who fight the horde in the base, e.g. increasing the speed of the zombies. Players who fight the zombies by hand with weapons and don't use traps would be as affected as players who want to avoid the Horde.

Some of the measures that have been suggested, however, also would change the behaviour of the zombies and it would also affect those who fight the horde in the base. In this thread it was suggested to increase the speed of the zombies. Players who fight the zombies by hand with weapons and don't use traps would be affected as well as players who want to avoid the horde. But certain traps would also be affected. The turrets, for example, might not be able to hit such fast zombies anymore or would only fire 1-2 rounds before the zombie has crossed the target area.

This is why I feel like it's best to increase zombie speed only in the darkness. If a player wants to fight zombies in the street, they can plunk a few torches down and do so. Will it be more challenging fighting in a semi-confined space? Sure, but I don't think that kind of person minds a little extra challenge. Want to have a fallback base? Light up a path to it. Zombies too fast for the turrets? Cover the surrounding area with spotlights .

Anyway just because other players would be affected doesn't mean it's going to be a bad effect. Whether or not it's bad has to be analyzed on a case by case basis.

 

[RestInPieces]

My playstyle is running around in the BMs butt-naked and poking zombies with a toothpick. What? Why don't I use the tools the game gives me? That's total nonsense, are you trying to enforce your playstyle on to me?! The game should cater to my playstyle and make combat toothpick-naked-friendly by removing those pesky weather conditions and making zombies slow enough so that I can poke them and run with ease!

That's why aliens don't visit us...

 

[RipClaw]

This is why I feel like it's best to increase zombie speed only in the darkness. If a player wants to fight zombies in the street, they can plunk a few torches down and do so. Will it be more challenging fighting in a semi-confined space? Sure, but I don't think that kind of person minds a little extra challenge. Want to have a fallback base? Light up a path to it. Zombies too fast for the turrets? Cover the surrounding area with spotlights.

These are all interesting suggestions for countermeasures with your idea.

There was a time when zombies were generally faster in the dark than in the light in this game. This was later replaced by changing the speed based on the time of day.

The question that comes to my mind is what was the reason for this at that time. Maybe Roland could shed some light on that. Was there a technical reason why they changed it ?

Anyway just because other players would be affected doesn't mean it's going to be a bad effect. Whether or not it's bad has to be analyzed on a case by case basis.

I simply see a problem in the aspect under which this discussion started. If you had suggested that changes in zombie behavior should be made to make the horde night more interesting, varied, or challenging, the discussion would have taken a different course. Instead, the discussion was started with the goal of preventing the player from running away. And all suggestions are only aimed at this one goal.

If everyone would focus on improving the horde night, maybe suggestions would come that have as a side effect that players can no longer avoid the horde so easily. But that wouldn't be seen critically to the same extent because you want to achieve something good for the game instead of something bad for some players.

 

[Dimpy]

I don't think I've read anybody saying that preventing players from running away is their number one priority. Make it more challenging and interesting, sure. Make it less overpowered compared to other methods of survival, yeah.

 

[OzHawkeye]

A rational player will make this calculation:
Horde night costs: Horde base to build, upgrade and repair 1 day a week + 8 hours horde night with preparation, material 2000 concrete, 2000 iron (just blind guesses). Ammunition: 500 bullets 9mm equivalent (per person).

POI scavenge costs: 150 bullets 9mm equivalent (?)

Now the high quality drop at the end has to be that much more valuable to compete against the 2-3 high quality drops you get inside a typical POI with a fraction of the costs. Nothing less than a GUARANTEED legendary weapon would even come close. The problem is that having a fast and early path to legendary weapons would immediately devalue normal weapons of any quality.

Your argument, and to a lesser extent RestInPieces, is highlighting a flaw in the current game, namely the copious availability of loot, as I see it anyway. In my mind, it's not so much an issue with the BM Horde, as with loot availability. I still don't think I should be able to get a sniper rifle say (of any quality) early on in the game, and the fact that I currently can (let's see how A18 plays though), is an issue. It's just one that also happens to make incentivising BM horde participation harder to do.

I definitely don't think that the BM horde should have a chance at dropping exclusive loot (since that would make the BM horde more or less mandatory again), but I think if high value loot weren't so easily obtained, then offering a chance of it up in the BM horde would work.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Trying to get back on topic with running, and particularly on running during horde night...

I think they made a mistake with this in the settings.

Setting aside that nightmare speed is broken, the horde night speed should always be a step up from your speed settings. By toggling horde night on, you opt into this.

If I turn the hordes on, and my zombies normally walk at night, then horde night should make them run. Settings to have them walk on horde night are only reasonable if this was the kind of game that can generate a thousand slow zombies that can overcome you simply by their numbers and coming at you from all directions. On higher difficulty, if I have horde night on, then that horde should be the fastest possible.

The same should apply to zombie block damage. If I give them a low damage, but I turn horde nights on, then on horde night it should automatically be a step up.

In general, the normal default difficulty should equate to zombies can catch up to you. By default, if I have horde night on, zombies should catch up to you even faster. That should be the base game. If it's too hard, then people can turn down the difficulty. For the crazies, we can boost it even higher.

 

[meganoth]

If everyone would focus on improving the horde night, maybe suggestions would come that have as a side effect that players can no longer avoid the horde so easily. But that wouldn't be seen critically to the same extent because you want to achieve something good for the game instead of something bad for some players.

I don't get this logic: Assume there was an overpowered gun in the game. Would I have to make positive suggestions which as a side effect nerf the gun instead of simply suggesting to nerf the gun?

Driving around on a bike on horde night IS overpowered, it completely removes risk, has nearly zero costs, without any skill or effort needed and no downside. Balancing the game means nerfing bikes on horde night, in other words changing any of those parameters.

It could happen that a better horde night also makes the bike problem disappear, or the solution would be completely independent: I can give an example for both:

1) Add zombie moles to the game that break out of the ground in front of bikes and cars and are able to topple any bike or car.

2) Add EMP zombies to the game who will stop any electric device, including blade traps in the horde base and any of the motorized vehicles. The bicycle needs to be slower than the fastest zombies in this case.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

Driving around on a bike on horde night IS overpowered, it completely removes risk, has nearly zero costs, without any skill or effort needed and no downside.

This right here. This is a big problem.

Saying "if you don't like it, don't ride a bike" is so weak and lazy. It takes the game out of the game. It's like playing rock, paper, scissors, but you add a new item "cheese" and if you use "cheese" you win no matter what. Who would play that game? And if you did, you would be pretty stupid not to use "cheese".

Saying "don't force us to stop riding bikes" is weak as well. You have no desire to play an actual horde night, so turn them off and leave us who want to play the horde night as intended alone.

 

[Dimpy]

Trying to get back on topic with running, and particularly on running during horde night...I think they made a mistake with this in the settings.

Setting aside that nightmare speed is broken, the horde night speed should always be a step up from your speed settings. By toggling horde night on, you opt into this.

If I turn the hordes on, and my zombies normally walk at night, then horde night should make them run. Settings to have them walk on horde night are only reasonable if this was the kind of game that can generate a thousand slow zombies that can overcome you simply by their numbers and coming at you from all directions. On higher difficulty, if I have horde night on, then that horde should be the fastest possible.

The same should apply to zombie block damage. If I give them a low damage, but I turn horde nights on, then on horde night it should automatically be a step up.

In general, the normal default difficulty should equate to zombies can catch up to you. By default, if I have horde night on, zombies should catch up to you even faster. That should be the base game. If it's too hard, then people can turn down the difficulty. For the crazies, we can boost it even higher.

I have trouble seeing how restricting choices here actually helps anything.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I have trouble seeing how restricting choices here actually helps anything.

It really wouldn't do much. The only purpose in my eyes is making it obvious that the horde night is a feature that should be adding difficulty to the game. This was lost the moment they provided the off switch. It should just be on or off without messing with the speeds. The speed would be determined from your other settings plus some. I'm all for freedom in the settings, but I think they lost something here and took it too far. Now, we can't even make suggestions that would make horde nights a challenge because everyone has it in their minds that they should be this easy.

 

[OzHawkeye]

This right here. This is a big problem.
Saying "if you don't like it, don't ride a bike" is so weak and lazy. It takes the game out of the game. It's like playing rock, paper, scissors, but you add a new item "cheese" and if you use "cheese" you win no matter what. Who would play that game? And if you did, you would be pretty stupid not to use "cheese".

Saying "don't force us to stop riding bikes" is weak as well. You have no desire to play an actual horde night, so turn them off and leave us who want to play the horde night as intended alone.

I don't have a problem with the idea that now that Hordes can be turned off in the in-game menu options, that when on, they ought to be pretty darned hard to avoid. The issue is how you do that without crimping other game mechanics.

So yes, in a perfect world, if the BM Horde is enabled, it should be nearly impossible to avoid - but how to do it, without putting in some other equally contrived mechanic - and how to do it for both single player and multi player servers?

 

[AtomicUs5000]

but how to do it, without putting in some other equally contrived mechanic - and how to do it for both single player and multi player servers?

if (is_bm_active) {

// insert bm mechanics here

} else {

// insert regular mechanics here

}

Lol, I know that's not as literal as you meant.

Ideas. Ideas without people busting in with the two lame excuses I presented would be a good start.

 

[OzHawkeye]

if (is_bm_active) {// insert bm mechanics here

} else {

// insert regular mechanics here

}

Lol, I know that's not as literal as you meant.

Ideas. Ideas without people busting in with the two lame excuses I presented would be a good start.

And I wish I had a good idea to submit here and indeed to the Pimps. The issue is especially bedeviled for MP, since the player can just logout to avoid the Horde, so even "somehow!" disabling vehicles wouldn't stop this for MP.

I suspect the least bad way, and that's the best I can refer to it as, would be to disable vehicles during BM nights, but it's a very poor "fix" indeed, given its limitations. Perhaps that's all the Pimps can do.

 

[OzHawkeye]

I will point out though, that my "Ultimate Horde" suggestion, which I posted just shortly before TFP announced the Horde slider menu option, would be to make the BM Horde a random, triggered event, every time you kill a zombie.

A small chance each time, so that - on average - it would only trigger roughly every 7 days or so, but you kill some random zombie, and BOOM! the sky turns red and a BM horde spawns.

Since the player wouldn't necessarily have a vehicle nearby, there's no need to disable those. Since the MP player might be in the middle of something else, logging out might not be a good option either.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I will point out though, that my "Ultimate Horde" suggestion, which I posted just shortly before TFP announced the Horde slider menu option, would be to make the BM Horde a random, triggered event, every time you kill a zombie.
A small chance each time, so that - on average - it would only trigger roughly every 7 days or so, but you kill some random zombie, and BOOM! the sky turns red and a BM horde spawns.

Since the player wouldn't necessarily have a vehicle nearby, there's no need to disable those. Since the MP player might be in the middle of something else, logging out might not be a good option either.

I like the idea more for just a large horde in general, and I can extend on it to make it more reasonable and maintaining of immersion...

Killing a zombie could be just a general attractor, kinda like the heat map but it is attached to you and not to a chunk. You kill a zombie, there is a chance for 0, 1, or 2 more to spawn nearby and have a general sense of your location where that chance is based on your attractor value. Each kill, the attractor value goes up increasing that chance. It dwindles with time, and probably should rather quickly, If you have bad luck while killing a few zombies in an area, it could slowly trickle into a horde honing in on you. You might get lucky and be able to eliminate all that come and end the cycle, but other times you might have to get out of Dodge. This would of course have to be disabled during BM.

EDIT: Also, you would want to try to eliminate the horde completely on BM... if you don't, then kill them after, you are in for more coming because the attractor value would be enabled again.

Stealth perks could lessen or prevent the increase of this value when killing with stealth weapons.

 

[RipClaw]

I don't get this logic: Assume there was an overpowered gun in the game. Would I have to make positive suggestions which as a side effect nerf the gun instead of simply suggesting to nerf the gun?
Driving around on a bike on horde night IS overpowered, it completely removes risk, has nearly zero costs, without any skill or effort needed and no downside. Balancing the game means nerfing bikes on horde night, in other words changing any of those parameters.

It could happen that a better horde night also makes the bike problem disappear, or the solution would be completely independent: I can give an example for both:

1) Add zombie moles to the game that break out of the ground in front of bikes and cars and are able to topple any bike or car.

2) Add EMP zombies to the game who will stop any electric device, including blade traps in the horde base and any of the motorized vehicles. The bicycle needs to be slower than the fastest zombies in this case.

You gave me just the right example for the logic. Now it's no longer about whether something improves the horde night, but just about the discussion of whether avoiding the horde is OP or not. All your suggestions are only aimed at stopping a behaviour that you consider undesirable. No thought is given to whether or not this will improve the game and what side effects it will have on players who are actually fighting the horde.

I'm saying that I don't think that avoiding the horde is OP. If you avoid the horde you get no XP and no loot. On the other hand if you build a base you get XP for upgrading the blocks, XP for collecting resources, XP for killing the zombies and you get loot. Maybe not a good loot but at least loot. And the whole discussion then revolves around that.

The truth is, I don't care if it's OP or not because I don't do it. I'm not wasting any thought of what if. I build my base and fight the horde. I enjoy designing and testing bases for the horde. I don't care about the resources I have to spend because I also enjoy collecting resources. It's that simple for me.

And by the way, there are other ways to escape the horde. Not only by driving around at horde night.

You can swim on a lake. In the water the zombies don't spawn at all. You can also just drop off everything and let the horde kill you all night long. As a side effect, you always have a low gamestage. All these methods have in common that they are boring.

 

[Morloc]

And I wish I had a good idea to submit here and indeed to the Pimps. The issue is especially bedeviled for MP, since the player can just logout to avoid the Horde, so even "somehow!" disabling vehicles wouldn't stop this for MP.
I suspect the least bad way, and that's the best I can refer to it as, would be to disable vehicles during BM nights, but it's a very poor "fix" indeed, given its limitations. Perhaps that's all the Pimps can do.

{Edited for clarity}

Introduce colonists to defend.
You don't ~have~ to defend them, but then you lose whatever benefits your fledgling bastion of civilization was providing.

-The special recipe that having colonist Jimmy Oswego offers.

-The almost effective rifle that Justine Rogers carries.

-The quick medical patch-up that Doc Felix Farnsworth provides.

They start arriving once you lay down a "Colony Block". They don't arrive quickly. Some may only be available as a result of quests.

There's the incentive to stay and fight the horde.

There's the incentive to build a multi-layered fortress designed not just to keep the Zs out, but to keep colonists alive.

All the excitement of having to decide if you can hold out 'till sunrise, or bail out to save your own bacon.

No new zombies required and seemingly only minor tweaks to the AI...

...adding a whole new dimension to the game.

-Morloc

 

[meganoth]

I have trouble seeing how restricting choices here actually helps anything.

Just look at the chess rules (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_chess) and show me any rule that isn't restricting you. Sure, most of these rules tell you what you can do, but they also tell you the limits. For example:

"A rook moves any number of vacant squares in a horizontal or vertical direction. It also is moved when castling."

This tells you what you can do with a rook, but it also tells you that you can't move the rook diagonally. This rule is restricting your choice, to put it bluntly