A meta-discussion about modding

[Kubikus]

You make a lot if incorrect assumptions regarding motives...

I don't say anything about motives, but about attitude. Mentality and mind-set might be better words for what I mean. Comments like this:

I've seen what tin can do with a17. He hasn't released anything yet, but it's awesome.
And the painting is just icing on the cake.

My next project is understanding gaia, to improve the process.

People just need to learn the new stuff, not baby whine about losing the old stuff.

Or this:

I beg to differ.
There are more ways than ever to mod the game, and if you really must cling to the old systems then it can be done.

Sure not with just an xml mod or a few sdx mods chucked together, but the sole reason I still play and mod this game is because you can essentially do ANYTHING with it.

I mean just look at medieval for a16. Many parts of that would have been considered impossible by most modders. You just need to know what you are doing

And these comments are clearly understood as counterarguments to complaints that things have been removed or don't work. And they have a sorta condescending undertone, right? , stop baby whining, just learn the stuff.
What if I don't want to? I know: Then I am not even a modder. -.-

Again, tryna understand, it's fine to great if you learn all these things and glorious if you share your findings, make tutorials, make mods for everybody to use, but you doing that is not invalidating complaints that stuff has been removed, changed, is not moddable via xml, that features are broken and so on. Right? It is, for example, valid to complain about the removal of the skill-system. That is also very good customer feedback. Whoever is upset about that removal should say so, so the company knows how much the feature was liked. Same with RWG. And when a dev drops a note that it's being worked on, you can still provide feedback about what you'd like to see, what kind of features RWG should have. What modding options would be welcome.

That's all I'm saying, homes.

 

[DUST2DEATH]

Tried it again and currently spending the first night on top of ranger station, while a friendly wolf is taking care of zombies downstairs. Works mostly fine, the loading time is obviously terrible and twice there was a freeze of two seconds, that I did not have in smaller world. Of course I'm not sitting in front of the monitor waiting for the game to start. But it's good to know that this works, and time to think about designing a map. Spawnpoint placement is finally possible, zones can be place freely. Future's looking bright, y'all better keep your fingers crossed that we get more biomes to play with. I mean - that can't be the final state, can it? Top men won't settle for five lousy biomes, right? Gais? You over there, I'm not seeing your fingers crossed, get in line, *swings whip*

It could be the final state. What if they expect you to, gasp, mod it?

 

[FastBurst]

It could be the final state. What if they expect you to, gasp, mod it?

DUST2DEATH you just had to go there LOL - I don't know why but I just had a flash of Steve Irwin "Crocodile Hunter" saying... "look at this sleeping grizzle bear, one of the most dangerous creatures around, one wrong move and he could kill me just like that, sleeping peaceful. Imma go poke it with a stict.... CRIKEY HE'S ANGRY SOOOO ANGRRRRRY!!"

 

[Kubikus]

It could be the final state. What if they expect you to, gasp, mod it?

If the devs themselves think more biomes would be good, I'd find such an approach unheard of, and if they really want only 5 different biomes, yet provide the option to mod in more, I'd want it to be easy and not the privilege of a few diligent learners. Particularly when it can be made easy, like, say, backward sprinting could be made a simple xml-tweak.
Isn't that an agreeable opinion, buddy?

However, considering that there really seems to be a reduction of terrain block textures + Guppy has heard something corresponding, there seems to be a technical issue. Yet, not being able to use more different terrain block would not be a reason to reduce biomes. You could just design more biomes with the same blocks. So the removal indicates that it is a) a technical problem and b) expected to be solved.

- - - Updated - - -

DUST2DEATH you just had to go there LOL - I don't know why but I just had a flash of Steve Irwin "Crocodile Hunter" saying... "look at this sleeping grizzle bear, one of the most dangerous creatures around, one wrong move and he could kill me just like that, sleeping peaceful. Imma go poke it with a stict.... CRIKEY HE'S ANGRY SOOOO ANGRRRRRY!!"

It's funny, but you got it backwards: I am the Steve, the stick is mild criticism, and the angry crocodile with a built-in comic relief is a vocal minority of the modding community. But I don't blame you, when you have 1 guy over there and a couple on the opposite side, what's really going on can easily escape the untrained eye.

 

[DUST2DEATH]

I'd want it to be easy and not the privilege of a few diligent learners. Particularly when it can be made easy, like, say, backward sprinting could be made a simple xml-tweak.
Isn't that an agreeable opinion, buddy?

However, considering that there really seems to be a reduction of terrain block textures + Guppy has heard something corresponding, there seems to be a technical issue. Yet, not being able to use more different terrain block would not be a reason to reduce biomes. You could just design more biomes with the same blocks. So the removal indicates that it is a) a technical problem and b) expected to be solved.

I think the devs are going to do what they are going to do.

I think that those that want to do something, or have the inclination, will learn what is necessary to do what it is they want to do.

 

[Kubikus]

I think the devs are going to do what they are going to do.

Oh really.

I think that those that want to do something, or have the inclination, will learn what is necessary to do what it is they want to do.

I disagree. People are inclined to do all kinds of things. But to begin with, they already don't have the time to learn everything. It's a matter of priorities. So there really is no doubt that it would be best if modding was made as accessible as possible. All you can find are arguments why it is not possible, not why that statement of mine is wrong. It might not be possible to make something very easy, for technical reasons. Like putting in new models and animating them and so on. That cannot work with just xml, I assume. But designing new biomes? Or tweaking the backward sprinting speed? What reason is there not to make that (eventually) possible with simple xml tweaks?

 

[DUST2DEATH]

Hey.

Imagine if you spent all this time that you do whinging, learning.

 

[Kubikus]

Hey.
Imagine if you spent all this time that you do whinging, learning.

The usual personal remark at the end of y'all's wits aside, it is an "all work and no play makes jack a dull boy" type of situations. Spending a significant amount of time learning how to tweak someone else's creative work just isn't high up on my todo list.

 

[DUST2DEATH]

Its not an attack, but any time someone calls your attitude or laziness out you play the victim.

It is what it is, a spade is a spade.

If you cant be bothered, why should anyone else be bothered to do anything for you?

 

[Kubikus]

Its not an attack, but any time someone calls your attitude or laziness out you play the victim.
It is what it is, a spade is a spade.

If you cant be bothered, why should anyone else be bothered to do anything for you?

Yeah but noone should do anything for me. I never asked for that. What the hell are you talking about? It's ridiculous.
Modding should be easy. So everybody and their mom can create cool mods. What's there to disagree with. Nothing. You disagree for personal reasons. It's transparent like thin air.

 

[DUST2DEATH]

I didnt see anyone disagree, I certainly dont.

It is easy, for those who can be bothered.

 

[Kubikus]

I didnt see anyone disagree, I certainly dont.
It is easy, for those who can be bothered.

I see. So what is your point in this discussion, then, if you agree with my statement? What is your contribution? Just the personal remarks? Kubikus is lazy, wants others to do things for him and such..? And you come to these conclusions how? Because I say "modding should be easy" - with which you agree? So you are lazy yourself and want others to do things for you?

Spoiler

lol

 

[DUST2DEATH]

No, because you say you cant be bothered.

If you have time to play 7 days, you have time to learn.

 

[Kubikus]

No, because you say you cant be bothered.

That's why I think it should be easy. I don't think you should do the work for me. Or anybody else.

If you have time to play 7 days, you have time to learn.

But if I spent the time I have to play 7 days with learning, I can't play 7 days. While, overall, this argument is an argument against my opinion, that it should be easy. So what is your opinion, after all?

 

[DUST2DEATH]

OK lets put it this way.

You want to do cool stuff. Well, you're gonna need unity.

There is a script to make the bundle, its provided for you, you dont need to learn that part.

So what cool stuff do you want to do? plants?

Great. Go buy a Speedtree subscription for a month, but then youre gonna have to learn how to use the software.

Then you're going to need the leave textures, and wood textures. OK, get Gimp, or pay for PS.

Theres free CC textures you can find around the net to use.

Too much?

Wanna do weapons?

You got blender? Its free, but you're gonna have to learn to use it.

No? You can always buy a model then, it comes with textures usually.

But, you're probably still going to want to learn blender to fix or make it actually work.

Then, you're gonna want to learn to animate it.

Dont forget sounds!

too much?

What about vehicles, you could do those right?

Still need blender, need to learn to rig them then.

No?

I dont know, it looks like it all comes back to learning if you ask me.

 

[Kubikus]

OK lets put it this way.
You want to do cool stuff. Well, you're gonna need unity.

There is a script to make the bundle, its provided for you, you dont need to learn that part.

So what cool stuff do you want to do? plants?

Great. Go buy a Speedtree subscription for a month, but then youre gonna have to learn how to use the software.

Then you're going to need the leave textures, and wood textures. OK, get Gimp, or pay for PS.

Theres free CC textures you can find around the net to use.

Too much?

Wanna do weapons?

You got blender? Its free, but you're gonna have to learn to use it.

No? You can always buy a model then, it comes with textures usually.

But, you're probably still going to want to learn blender to fix or make it actually work.

Then, you're gonna want to learn to animate it.

Dont forget sounds!

too much?

What about vehicles, you could do those right?

Still need blender, need to learn to rig them then.

No?

I dont know, it looks like it all comes back to learning if you ask me.

Oh sure, as I already said, if things are technically impossible to be simple xml-tweaks, then it's obviously reasonable that you gotta learn things. None of your exmaples, btw, is anything I am interested in. But I am highly interested, for example, in increase backward sprinting speed. But it's not accessible. It's inside an asset file or something. I learned how to mod it in A16, UABE, something, tried it in A17, but UABE does not seem to work for that thing or I need to learn something new or... whatnot.
So my argument or viewpoint is: Make that number part of the XML. LEt me just change a number in the XML. Make it easy. Don't make me learn things, download additional software, wait for third party software to be updated. And so on. Same with biomes and the skill system, and things like that. That could be simple xml-tweaks, if the devs made it so.

And that, my dearest friend, is all that I'm saying. Just a perfectly reasonable opinion, that everybody can only agree with. That already, if you didn't see it, considered that now is not the time for the dev team to implement these things, because they have other priorities. Yet, the attitude that everything can just be as complicated as it is, is disagreeable. Because it reduces the number of people, aka the number of creative talents who can create awesome mods.

k thx bye

 

[DUST2DEATH]

Things are what they are, however complicated they are.

Not everyone was meant to do everything.

 

[Kubikus]

Things are what they are, however complicated they are.
Not everyone was meant to do everything.

Thankfully, that ideology was pretty much disestablished at the end of the dark ages. But we both know you just don't have it in you to agree with me, so... I'm calling it a day.

 

[DUST2DEATH]

What? No it wasnt.

You might have a camera, doesnt mean you can take a good photo. Nobody is magically amazing at everything.

 

[Kubikus]

What? No it wasnt.
You might have a camera, doesnt mean you can take a good photo. Nobody is magically amazing at everything.

Ok: Now it is complicated, possibly impossible, to tweak backward sprinting speed, because it is in a unaccessible file. Or I don't know how to access it. It's not in an xml-file.
But it could. It's the devs' decision. So your ... "argument" that things are complicated as they are, like it was a cosmic law that can't be changed, is false. It is the devs' decision. They can change it. I advocate for them to change it. And not say "it is what it is, if you wanna mod it, spend another couple of hours to learn how to use the tools (or create them in the first place)".

Devs should do all they can to make modding as simple as possible. You already agreed with that. So why "it is what it is, not everyone can be able to do it" and not "yeah, backward sprinting and what ever is possible, should go into xmls"? Sounds like you try to counter my reasoning.