4.0 A new threat update - Bandits?

[InfiniteWarrior]

a console gamer, imo, has every right to put two and two together and add it up to: they re-launched the game to console prematurely, when they did, because it upped the value of their sale. To me it looks like they used us and hoped they'd be able to code fast enough to keep the backlash to a minimum.

For The Fun Pimps, the decision to sell came after co-founders Richard and Joel Huenink considered options for growing the company. The studio has grown from two people to 70 and has taken no outside investment.

"We've entertained the idea of potentially selling, merging, or looking for investment," Richard Huenink explains. "Our success has allowed us to be selective in that process. Over this last year, we've had quite a few suitors interested in us. But the selection wasn't necessarily about the pure financials. It was a good fit. We're partnering with somebody who's invested in what we're doing. They see our vision, and they want to help us get there." -- 'Dead by Daylight maker Behaviour has bought the studio behind 7 Days to Die to create "a portfolio of horror IP"'

Sounds to me like the Hueninks are believers in the infinite growth on a finite planet paradigm as is pretty much every other business leader at this point thanks to neoliberalism, the ideology that underpins the entire global economy. It's not capitalism, per se; it's not natural; it's nothing it purports to be; yet it is. Most people think of it as "just the way things are" and "there is no alternative." Well, it may be just the way things are now (and since 1980), but the "no alternative" part came straight from the lips of Margaret Thatcher.

As long as we're speculating, I'd sincerely question the "they want to help us get there" part if TFP hadn't already been headed in the same direction as Behavior. I despise the turn TFP's business model has taken. I could get behind the old school business model on display through A21. I can't get behind this one. I'm sure they don't care. Why would they care? But the change in business model has little to do with the game itself at this point. Were TFP and Behavior to charge extra for bandits, story, etc., that would be a phenomenally horrible decision that would cost them more in community goodwill than its worth financially, imo, but they've both said those features will go ahead as planned, presumably at no extra charge. They'll be added, then Behavior will take a more active role d(as has been said), I suspect, in turning 7DTD into a MTX nightmare replete with in-game store as opposed to an out of game store.

That's just the direction I see it headed in logically because that's the underpinning logic of Neoliberalism. Fortunately, there's more to human beings than logic or reason, however. We also possess the qualities of common sense, creativity, ethics, intuition and memory. Hopefully, those will play a part going forward as well, but considering Urizen rules the socioeconomic order of the day, I wouldn't count on it.

I'm sorry you feel used, but don't imagine you speak for all console players in always assuming the worst of TFP. Neoliberalism is the logic behind everything they've done on the business end. I wouldn't take it personally myself. Taking it personally leads to emotionality which leads to reactivity as opposed to response. All the character assasination of the Hueninks and accusations of illegality on the part of a portion of the community is unwarranted, imo. They've obviously done nothing illegal. Whether some things the industry at large is doing should be illegal or not is an open question the public has yet to determine. The Stop Killing Games testimony that recently took place in Europe may help determine what is considered illegal and/or "anti-consumer" on the part of the video game industry in the future. That, however, doesn't even touch on predatory business models ripped straight out of the playbook of the FTP mobile gambling/gaming space, but only the preservation of online video games.

This is bigger than TFP or Behavior or the 7DTD community, iow. It's part and parcel of how the games industry, as every other, operates today and, from a spiritual perspective, they "operate according to their own logic and motivations," quite apart from the motivations of the people who serve them -- artists, level designers, computer programmers, etc. in the case of the games industry. That's why I pay no attention to those who blame "the devs" for everything patently unhealthy about the industry. It's a worldview and paradigm that's in question.

 

[Kyoji]

I think they stated the delay was due to the efforts put into survival revival and what's coming in the new 3.0. Personally I would love to see bandits but I want them to fix what we have now first. Post 2.0 the game was lackluster and we got the developer feedback we wanted.

While unfortunate, I understand and largely appreciate the changes they have made thus far.

 

[HammerDano]

Sounds to me like the Hueninks are believers in the infinite growth on a finite planet paradigm as is pretty much every other business leader at this point thanks to neoliberalism, the ideology that underpins the entire global economy. It's not capitalism, per se; it's not natural; it's nothing it purports to be; yet it is. Most people think of it as "just the way things are" and "there is no alternative." Well, it may be just the way things are now (and since 1980), but the "no alternative" part came straight from the lips of Margaret Thatcher.

As long as we're speculating, I'd sincerely question the "they want to help us get there" part if TFP hadn't already been headed in the same direction as Behavior. I despise the turn TFP's business model has taken. I could get behind the old school business model on display through A21. I can't get behind this one. I'm sure they don't care. Why would they care? But the change in business model has little to do with the game itself at this point. Were TFP and Behavior to charge extra for bandits, story, etc., that would be a phenomenally horrible decision that would cost them more in community goodwill than its worth financially, imo, but they've both said those features will go ahead as planned, presumably at no extra charge. They'll be added, then Behavior will take a more active role d(as has been said), I suspect, in turning 7DTD into a MTX nightmare replete with in-game store as opposed to an out of game store.

That's just the direction I see it headed in logically because that's the underpinning logic of Neoliberalism. Fortunately, there's more to human beings than logic or reason, however. We also possess the qualities of common sense, creativity, ethics, intuition and memory. Hopefully, those will play a part going forward as well, but considering Urizen rules the socioeconomic order of the day, I wouldn't count on it.

I'm sorry you feel used, but don't imagine you speak for all console players in always assuming the worst of TFP. Neoliberalism is the logic behind everything they've done on the business end. I wouldn't take it personally myself. Taking it personally leads to emotionality which leads to reactivity as opposed to response. All the character assasination of the Hueninks and accusations of illegality on the part of a portion of the community is unwarranted, imo. They've obviously done nothing illegal. Whether some things the industry at large is doing should be illegal or not is an open question the public has yet to determine. The Stop Killing Games testimony that recently took place in Europe may help determine what is considered illegal and/or "anti-consumer" on the part of the video game industry in the future. That, however, doesn't even touch on predatory business models ripped straight out of the playbook of the FTP mobile gambling/gaming space, but only the preservation of online video games.

This is bigger than TFP or Behavior or the 7DTD community, iow. It's part and parcel of how the games industry, as every other, operates today and, from a spiritual perspective, they "operate according to their own logic and motivations," quite apart from the motivations of the people who serve them -- artists, level designers, computer programmers, etc. in the case of the games industry. That's why I pay no attention to those who blame "the devs" for everything patently unhealthy about the industry. It's a worldview and paradigm that's in question.

any chance you would boil this down to a more pointed response?

 

[theFlu]

any chance you would boil this down to a more pointed response?

In this case, seems to be part "don't blame the player, blame the game" to shift responsibility away from TFP; while in part also judging TFP for the business practices. A mess of ideas with no coherent conclusion, just trying to touch on everything in that particular line of thinking.

TFP's actions are their own, though. If they'd hate the idea of selling DLC, they wouldn't. "Because someone else will" isn't an excuse, especially here in the case of an IP product. You don't need to earn more than the next guy, just enough to keep living your life

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

any chance you would boil this down to a more pointed response?

It's how the games industry is trending: toward games as a service and away from games as completed products. Nearly everything from games to books to TV shows to movies to... have moved to an online distribution model that ensures "consumers" will own nothing, but only rent and/or subscribe to everything intangible and the private sector will own everything. Neoliberalism and the so-called digital revolution is behind it. Is that pointed enough?

 

[HammerDano]

It's how the games industry is trending: toward games as a service and away from games as completed products. Nearly everything from games to books to TV shows to movies to... have moved to an online distribution model that ensures "consumers" will own nothing, but only rent and/or subscribe to everything intangible and the private sector will own everything. Neoliberalism and the so-called digital revolution is behind it. Is that pointed enough?

thank you
and yes, for me...it was pointed enough. Sorry, but, no sense in using 100 words when 3 get to the point, but, that's just my opinion.

Sure...some companies are trying to follow the live service game model, just as some are running away from it. a game can "die" having never been "finished", pretty quickly, following that model. Common refrain is that They "all" are trying to extract as much profit as they can. Which, to me, means quality is not really the goal...profits are. Just more en■■■■ification by the suits of the world. our moms might say just because one does it, doesn't excuse "everyone" doing the same thing. lol

the idea that consumers are being asked to accept "owning nothing" is one we have discussed before...it is a goal of big tech companies. How far down the road it is...will consumers reject it? we are still living through it...hard to tell how things will play out in the short, middle, and long term. You are right to keep it in mind. imo.

 

[Rotor]

.... How far down the road it is..

Well there is this character named Neo....nvm.

 

[HammerDano]

Well there is this character named Neo....nvm.

where/who is our white rabbit?

 

[Blue mame]

I witnessed a massive argument. What was supposed to be a discussion about TFP didn't need to be taken so seriously. I don't have a serious prejudice against TFP. The heated discussion among influential players on the forum steered the discussion elsewhere. Vigorous rebuttals only lead to more intense conflict. Our discussion should be beneficial to TFP, not a pointless dispute. Even if it's being criticized, there's no need to make things so heated. As the saying goes, "the deeper the love, the deeper the hate." Do these intense voices dislike the game? No, it's precisely because they like it that they're so frequent and enthusiastic. Would refuting all the criticisms today really benefit the community? Frankly, I personally don't like it when people say my mods are bad. I felt misunderstood. I fiercely refuted them, and in the end, I found that these critical voices disappeared; they silently left my community. Then I fell into a long period of narcissism, my community dwindled, and I received no feedback. This is my true experience. I am still paying the price for my past recklessness. I wish those voices of criticism were still there, because they were the guiding lights that propelled me forward.

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

some companies are trying to follow the live service game model

That's just the worst version of "Games as a Service," imo. Might as well download Candy Crush Saga. "Build it and they will come" didn't work out too well for the industry, though, did it? Turns out trying to produce the next Fortnite by tasking every studio and its neighbor -- even single player studios with no experience whatsoever in producing multiplayer games -- to produce one is not a good idea, much less trying to have it both ways and charge full price for the game, then nickle and dime people to death with it besides.

The "acceptable" version, at least according to industry heads, is that we no longer own copies even of the complete single player games we've supposedly purchased from various distribution platforms over the years -- Xbox, Playstation, Steam, GOG, etc. -- and are just going to have to get "comfortable" with not owning the games we buy for subscription services to "take off." (It was an Ubisoft exec who said that, specifically.) Even the PC gaming community's darling, Steam, updated its TOS to "clarify" we don't own the copies of games we've bought over the years. Is anyone doing anything about it? No. It's been normalized. It's "standard practice" for all software now. (See: Adobe, et al.) And we're going to be signing onto it every time we "lease" a new game. That's why I don't think that when industry heads speak of "the problem of getting everyone on the Internet" they're concerned about the less fortunate among us, but only thinking about "demographics" they can't tap for profit because they're not on the Internet. I further think it's all unconscious. All anyone among the public can do, for the moment, is be aware of it, avoid it as much as possible and, maybe, fume about it because the foxes are guarding the hen house, so to speak, or are asleep on the job. I can't really tell which.

for me...it was pointed enough

I guess just not for me. Those are symptoms of the dis-ease, afic. What lies beneath is the real bugbear, considering we were all born and conditioned in it. It's been changing since at least Voyager was turned around to take that iconic picture of the planet, imo, but you'd never know it to look only at the surface appearance of things.

Back to bandits....

 

[Double G]

people saying "most people don't play Modded content". I think that is a ridiculous statement. Do they mean that the people who walked away from the game do not engage with modded content?

No. It means that most active players are not using mods. Without any legit stats that is the most sensible conclusion to make because most players of any game are casuals.

Most players of games also don't go on forums and Reddit and Twitter, etc. You're seeing things from your perspective and the perspective of those that are invested enough to come to the internet and post about things, aka power users.

Most players of games don't even go too deep into in-game settings let alone figuring out how to find mods and find where the folders might be for them to place them.

There's even a good amount of people that don't even know how to unzip the folders properly for mods, and those are the ones that are going out of their way to install them.

You're overestimating people. They're not as engaged and as savvy as you think.

 

[Uncle Al]

No. It means that most active players are not using mods. Without any legit stats that is the most sensible conclusion to make because most players of any game are casuals.

Most players of games also don't go on forums and Reddit and Twitter, etc. You're seeing things from your perspective and the perspective of those that are invested enough to come to the internet and post about things, aka power users.

Most players of games don't even go too deep into in-game settings let alone figuring out how to find mods and find where the folders might be for them to place them.

There's even a good amount of people that don't even know how to unzip the folders properly for mods, and those are the ones that are going out of their way to install them.

You're overestimating people. They're not as engaged and as savvy as you think.

This is so true.

It's kind of surprising TFP, and indeed any developer, listens to us (forum users) as much as they do.

Commercially, pretty much all your significant direct revenue comes from people who'll buy the game, never install a mod, never post about it anywhere and will probably play 10-30 hours in a handful of playthroughs.

TFP have to cater to those people, or they wouldn't have survived as a business.

Once you understand that, a lot of decisions made about the game make sense.

 

[murky water]

-snip-

while i have some quibbles with the finer details the overarching statement is accurate enough i wouldnt argue them here.

 

[Blue mame]

No. It means that most active players are not using mods. Without any legit stats that is the most sensible conclusion to make because most players of any game are casuals.

Most players of games also don't go on forums and Reddit and Twitter, etc. You're seeing things from your perspective and the perspective of those that are invested enough to come to the internet and post about things, aka power users.

Most players of games don't even go too deep into in-game settings let alone figuring out how to find mods and find where the folders might be for them to place them.

There's even a good amount of people that don't even know how to unzip the folders properly for mods, and those are the ones that are going out of their way to install them.

You're overestimating people. They're not as engaged and as savvy as you think.

You're absolutely right, that's reality. The average player doesn't pay attention to mods. I can only give a conservative estimate: over 80% of players won't look for or install mods. You've interpreted this problem from the perspective of a normal player. A normal player should buy the game, play the content, and then quietly leave when they get bored. That's why TFP's opening of the Steam Workshop is so urgent. Also, a large portion of players don't accept unofficial content because they feel it's not authentic; they play for self-identification. In their minds, third-party mods are inferior products. Since I learned to modify and create mods, I've forgotten to look at things from a normal player's perspective. Your comments have greatly impacted me; I've finally seen the problem from a normal perspective.

Your comment is the most meaningful one I've seen in years.

 

[Roland]

Why should any of us believe that Bandits will be showing up?

Seriously guys, you have exhausted every ounce of goodwill you once had with your community.

Gaslight us some more please...

My Stockholm syndrome isn't fully locked in yet

There’s no doubt that TFP deserves to be treated like the boy who cried wolf. I totally understand the skepticism that THIS time bandits will release in the “next” update.

I can tell you that I’ve seen firsthand more development activity for bandits than ever before—way more than existed even the first time they attempted to bring bandits to the game.

The wolves eventually did come for that kid’s sheep and bandits are definitely coming regardless of the false starts of the past. Fortunately for us it will be a happy day when bandits show up.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Fortunately for us it will be a happy day when bandits show up.

Questionable.

 

[HammerDano]

You're absolutely right, that's reality. The average player doesn't pay attention to mods. I can only give a conservative estimate: over 80% of players won't look for or install mods. You've interpreted this problem from the perspective of a normal player. A normal player should buy the game, play the content, and then quietly leave when they get bored. That's why TFP's opening of the Steam Workshop is so urgent. Also, a large portion of players don't accept unofficial content because they feel it's not authentic; they play for self-identification. In their minds, third-party mods are inferior products. Since I learned to modify and create mods, I've forgotten to look at things from a normal player's perspective. Your comments have greatly impacted me; I've finally seen the problem from a normal perspective.

Your comment is the most meaningful one I've seen in years.

No. It means that most active players are not using mods. Without any legit stats that is the most sensible conclusion to make because most players of any game are casuals.

Most players of games also don't go on forums and Reddit and Twitter, etc. You're seeing things from your perspective and the perspective of those that are invested enough to come to the internet and post about things, aka power users.

Most players of games don't even go too deep into in-game settings let alone figuring out how to find mods and find where the folders might be for them to place them.

There's even a good amount of people that don't even know how to unzip the folders properly for mods, and those are the ones that are going out of their way to install them.

You're overestimating people. They're not as engaged and as savvy as you think.

Guys...you are using a "trust me bro" argument.

Using your same logic I would/could argue that the 7days to die creators, who draw in and retain a lot of 7 days to die players, use mods, and play a lot of modded content. People want to play what they see, so people are exposed to and far more likely to be open to using mods. I'd say the number of people who currently claim to play "unmodded" actually have a couple of small quality of life mods installed...what they mean by unmodded is they don't play the full overhaul mods...they see how often they would have to update drivers and files...wait for the mod to be updated because the game got an update. They might even just be waiting for the game to be finished so the mods won't "break" so often, before finally getting to try Darkness Falls. lol
I agree that most games are played casually...I would ask if you could agree that SOME games have more non casual fans? because I think that this game is one of those.

 

[Blue mame]

Guys...you are using a "trust me bro" argument.

Using your same logic I would/could argue that the 7days to die creators, who draw in and retain a lot of 7 days to die players, use mods, and play a lot of modded content. People want to play what they see, so people are exposed to and far more likely to be open to using mods. I'd say the number of people who currently claim to play "unmodded" actually have a couple of small quality of life mods installed...what they mean by unmodded is they don't play the full overhaul mods...they see how often they would have to update drivers and files...wait for the mod to be updated because the game got an update. They might even just be waiting for the game to be finished so the mods won't "break" so often, before finally getting to try Darkness Falls. lol
I agree that most games are played casually...I would ask if you could agree that SOME games have more non casual fans? because I think that this game is one of those.

With over 20 million copies sold, it should be clear just from forum activity alone that the vast majority of players never download or install mods at all.


I’m simply looking at things from a different perspective and acknowledging what I previously overlooked. I have never denied all the great value and benefits that mods bring to the game.


I sense you’re looking to argue with me here, but have you actually fully read and understood everything I’ve been saying in my previous messages?

 

[Roland]

Questionable.

Well—I meant for me. Arguably it will be for someone like you too since there will be sandbox options for bandits as well and you’ll be able to turn them off and remain happy.

 

[HammerDano]

With over 20 million copies sold, it should be clear just from forum activity alone that the vast majority of players never download or install mods at all.


I’m simply looking at things from a different perspective and acknowledging what I previously overlooked. I have never denied all the great value and benefits that mods bring to the game.


I sense you’re looking to argue with me here, but have you actually fully read and understood everything I’ve been saying in my previous messages?

over 20 million copies sold...how many daily players on steam? (TFP don't tell us what the console engagement is at, so we know the daily player count is higher...just not by how much) I am trying to get you to see that the vast majority of people who bought the game already moved on. I am also trying to argue that the smaller percentage of people who bought the game and are still playing the game, have been playing for years...that this game has higher number of people who are not casual...this is their ride or die game.

Is there any steam chart that tracks how many people are playing an overhaul mod...or played one in the past? (it would be great if there was...then we'd have some legit...but incomplete numbers to discuss)
is there anyway to track how many people have downloaded a mod from this site?

since even TFP don't use their own forum for major announcements (like the recent AMA) maybe it's not the best example of player engagement?

I am not looking to just argue...my response was to you and Double G...and it was intended to show that you both were using opinion not fact.

his argument is:

No. It means that most active players are not using mods. Without any legit stats that is the most sensible conclusion to make because most players of any game are casuals.

Most players of games also don't go on forums and Reddit and Twitter, etc. You're seeing things from your perspective and the perspective of those that are invested enough to come to the internet and post about things, aka power users.

Most players of games don't even go too deep into in-game settings let alone figuring out how to find mods and find where the folders might be for them to place them.

There's even a good amount of people that don't even know how to unzip the folders properly for mods, and those are the ones that are going out of their way to install them.

You're overestimating people. They're not as engaged and as savvy as you think.

and I am countering this with:

Guys...you are using a "trust me bro" argument.

Using your same logic I would/could argue that the 7days to die creators, who draw in and retain a lot of 7 days to die players, use mods, and play a lot of modded content. People want to play what they see, so people are exposed to and far more likely to be open to using mods. I'd say the number of people who currently claim to play "unmodded" actually have a couple of small quality of life mods installed...what they mean by unmodded is they don't play the full overhaul mods...they see how often they would have to update drivers and files...wait for the mod to be updated because the game got an update. They might even just be waiting for the game to be finished so the mods won't "break" so often, before finally getting to try Darkness Falls. lol
I agree that most games are played casually...I would ask if you could agree that SOME games have more non casual fans? because I think that this game is one of those.

because we are both just using opinion, everyone who read this, is free to interpret it for themselves...i just want them to know (and you) that there was not a verified fact in sight.