Feedback on 2.5

[Riamus]

I don't know why, but I get random CTDs and even full computer resets (at times) after playing for a while.
Other times I can keep going for an entire session without any issues.

Anyone of you techies can figure out what the issue could be?
My guess is that there is something "unstable" in the experimental, since with other games I can play most times without any issues.

You can check your event logs from Windows to see what the cause of the crash is. See if it's memory, GPU, hard drive, etc. Updating drivers may help if it's GPU. Changing settings may help as well. If you aren't letting Windows manage your page file, and you have it set too low and are running out of memory, that might cause crashes. It's just not easy to really know the cause without any details.

I just assume it fills up so quickly do to how often it rains lmao

Yeah. People complain about it being called a dew collector and passively collecting water instead of getting a bunch whenever it rains, but you can just consider it a mix of the two. It gets water when raining and also passively collects it even when not raining and the overall speed you get water is based on how quickly those processes happen on average. Personally, I prefer getting water at a constant rate rather than a bunch when it rains and then having to wait until it rains again before I can get any more. So I'm content with the dew collectors as they are. Change their name to rain collectors if you want. To me, the name doesn't matter.

Having no jerry can doesn't make your character unable to interact with the gas in the barrel.
Having no jar makes your character unable to interact with the water in the lake.

Yes, but they could have easily made it possible to gather water from a lake and boil it into jars without needing empty jars. It could have been done in many ways. Even just making it so each click filled an abstracted jar, letting you get a full jar of murky water without needing to have empty jars in the game. Or you can make it so you collect water with a bucket and then there's a recipe to boil a bucket of water to get 10 (or whatever) jars of water, again without needing empty jars. The interaction could have easily been done without empty jars. If people just cared about being able to get water from a water source, there were options that could have been done more easily than adding back empty jars. I mean, using abstracted jars at a lake would have been a change from "add X water to your water meter when clicking the lake" to "add 1 murky water to inventory when clicking the lake". That could probably have been done by changing a single line of code if it's well-written code... These two commands should be something as basic as fillThirstBar(amount) versus addInventory(murky_water), perhaps with values or whatever as well, but still a simply swap from one to the other.

So it ends up being a question that people keep having trouble explaining... do they want empty jars so they can collect it from a water source for immersion? If so, empty jars weren't necessary as shown above. Do they want empty jars so they can make a lot of glue very quickly and practically unlimited since bones are so easy to get? If so, is that a good reason? And even then, if you could collect jars of murky water from a water source using abstracted jars, is it really any different than if you have empty jars in the game? And in the end, if we want to talk about immersion, there is no reason you should ever have trouble finding empty containers to fill with water in an apocalyptic world. They are EVERYWHERE and in very large quantities. A single grocery store would have thousands of containers that can be used, from soda/pop bottles to water bottles to energy drink bottles to juice bottles to milk bottles to non-drink containers that can easily be repurposed for drinks. Most houses are likely to have at least half a dozen containers of some kind that could be used, with many having many more than that. And so on. So abstracted jars, where you are basically saying that jars are so easy to find that you don't even have to think about them, are more immersive than a system where you struggle to find jars and have to craft your own.

 

[Fritzl]

You can check your event logs from Windows to see what the cause of the crash is. See if it's memory, GPU, hard drive, etc. Updating drivers may help if it's GPU. Changing settings may help as well. If you aren't letting Windows manage your page file, and you have it set too low and are running out of memory, that might cause crashes. It's just not easy to really know the cause without any details.


Yeah. People complain about it being called a dew collector and passively collecting water instead of getting a bunch whenever it rains, but you can just consider it a mix of the two. It gets water when raining and also passively collects it even when not raining and the overall speed you get water is based on how quickly those processes happen on average. Personally, I prefer getting water at a constant rate rather than a bunch when it rains and then having to wait until it rains again before I can get any more. So I'm content with the dew collectors as they are. Change their name to rain collectors if you want. To me, the name doesn't matter.


Yes, but they could have easily made it possible to gather water from a lake and boil it into jars without needing empty jars. It could have been done in many ways. Even just making it so each click filled an abstracted jar, letting you get a full jar of murky water without needing to have empty jars in the game. Or you can make it so you collect water with a bucket and then there's a recipe to boil a bucket of water to get 10 (or whatever) jars of water, again without needing empty jars. The interaction could have easily been done without empty jars. If people just cared about being able to get water from a water source, there were options that could have been done more easily than adding back empty jars. I mean, using abstracted jars at a lake would have been a change from "add X water to your water meter when clicking the lake" to "add 1 murky water to inventory when clicking the lake". That could probably have been done by changing a single line of code if it's well-written code... These two commands should be something as basic as fillThirstBar(amount) versus addInventory(murky_water), perhaps with values or whatever as well, but still a simply swap from one to the other.

So it ends up being a question that people keep having trouble explaining... do they want empty jars so they can collect it from a water source for immersion? If so, empty jars weren't necessary as shown above. Do they want empty jars so they can make a lot of glue very quickly and practically unlimited since bones are so easy to get? If so, is that a good reason? And even then, if you could collect jars of murky water from a water source using abstracted jars, is it really any different than if you have empty jars in the game? And in the end, if we want to talk about immersion, there is no reason you should ever have trouble finding empty containers to fill with water in an apocalyptic world. They are EVERYWHERE and in very large quantities. A single grocery store would have thousands of containers that can be used, from soda/pop bottles to water bottles to energy drink bottles to juice bottles to milk bottles to non-drink containers that can easily be repurposed for drinks. Most houses are likely to have at least half a dozen containers of some kind that could be used, with many having many more than that. And so on. So abstracted jars, where you are basically saying that jars are so easy to find that you don't even have to think about them, are more immersive than a system where you struggle to find jars and have to craft your own.

Yes its pretty different. Your solution of an abstract jar provides unlimited water from day 1. With "real" empty jars (or bucket or whatever container) there is a way to balance.

 

[Suxar]

plus many other containers that can work for water once cleaned.

Well, here they are, empty cans. A person will most likely throw away sour milk and fermented juice and leave only the container.

 

[Riamus]

Yes its pretty different. Your solution of an abstract jar provides unlimited water from day 1. With "real" empty jars (or bucket or whatever container) there is a way to balance.

Water is basically unlimited from day 1 anyhow. The idea that it is any kind of challenge is just make believe. In any case, that was an example and I provided other options.

 

[Suxar]

Yes its pretty different. Your solution of an abstract jar provides unlimited water from day 1. With "real" empty jars (or bucket or whatever container) there is a way to balance.

Only on the first day there is no need for unlimited access to water. To make glue you need to find a beaker.

 

[ALEXZANDER]

how is it immersive to carry a bunch of jars down to a water source? It isn't, and it can't be. That would break immersion. a person would take a bucket to collect water, not a bunch of fragile glass jars just banging around in their backpack. How is it immersive to fill up 125 bottles of murky water simultaneously? it isn't and it can't be. It isn't any more or less immersive than using the creation menu to 'trade' buckets of water for quantities of murky water.

U serious?
The only good point from ur comment is "filling large amount of jars simultaneously"

 

[BFT2020]

I would love to see gas cans added.

Not me. I am fine filling up my gas can for my snow blower as I have to do it really once or twice a winter. Having to constantly lug one around in game to siphon gas is just not fun gameplay. It's bad when filling up various containers constantly in-game is more annoying than doing it in real life.

 

[BFT2020]

I've never bought drinks of any kind from a trader and I'm already stacking drinks that I find in storage that will likely never be used.

And that is great for you. I think I bought a couple of drinks on Day 1 because I had not yet tracked down a cooking pot yet to start boiling water. After that though, I have limited myself to just buying empty jars and making my own drinks.

I tend to cook the various foods in game. Sure I could stick to a diet of only grilled meat and eggs & bacon, but I enjoying setting up a small farm for my survivor so that I can cook things like pies, stews, etc. And those things take water as one of the recipes. Throw in 0% jar return and not perking into workstations to try and rush dew collector, I need to keep an eye on my water.

 

[ALEXZANDER]

I would love to see gas cans added.

same

 

[Javabean867]

So basically, what the fun pimps should have done, is allow people to click E on a water source, and have it give you 1 unit if murky water, instead of drinking it. I wonder if that would be possible in the game engine.

 

[Fritzl]

So basically, what the fun pimps should have done, is allow people to click E on a water source, and have it give you 1 unit if murky water, instead of drinking it. I wonder if that would be possible in the game engine.

So with 100 clicks in the first 2 minutes you ll have 100 water? No thank you.

Not to mention the "OMG!! Jars are created from thin air!!11!" crowd.

 

[theFlu]

I wonder if that would be possible in the game engine.

It is, and for me, it would've solved the main issue. TFP has the additional issue of wanting to gate the amount of murky you can obtain, which means they have to add some other problems. For gating, I wouldn't really mind either way, but it being a survival game, I'd easily agree to some amount of gating early on.

 

[Sapient6]

Hmm.. the article talks of "condensing", but also "dew-nights" .. so it sounds like a "fog catcher", not exactly a "passive dehumidifier".

I get where you're coming from. I guess the reason I argued over fog vs. dew is that where I live we hardly ever have fog, but that little thing started dripping less than an hour after the sun went down (New England, summer). We have some humidity here, definitely not arid, but the humidity is nothing like we'd see in the summer around St Louis and central Illinois.

 

[zztong]

Yes its pretty different. Your solution of an abstract jar provides unlimited water from day 1. With "real" empty jars (or bucket or whatever container) there is a way to balance.

I played with the abstract jars (via a Modlet) since jars were removed. I addressed "unlimited water" in two ways: Stacking Limits of 10 and a 6-second delay on harvesting water from a water source. I found that satisfied my desires for a feature to haul water away from a water source and limited how much water I would take. A Dew Collector was still handy to have.

Right now, I'm in the 100% recover Jars camp because that's the TFP feature that allows water to be harvested and carried, not because I want a large inventory of jars. I don't mind a Dew Collector creating jars, but it does seem like a loose end that admittedly is needed for the 0% recover jars folks. I also don't mind jars being really common since I can just drop them or not take them into my inventory in the first place.

It seems more like the goal isn't unlimited water, but in prolonging survival suffering, which I can support. That's why I tend to favor complicating purification, because it can be a factor for much longer.

 

[Riamus]

And that is great for you. I think I bought a couple of drinks on Day 1 because I had not yet tracked down a cooking pot yet to start boiling water. After that though, I have limited myself to just buying empty jars and making my own drinks.

I tend to cook the various foods in game. Sure I could stick to a diet of only grilled meat and eggs & bacon, but I enjoying setting up a small farm for my survivor so that I can cook things like pies, stews, etc. And those things take water as one of the recipes. Throw in 0% jar return and not perking into workstations to try and rush dew collector, I need to keep an eye on my water.

Without perking into anything to increase forge ahead drops or cooking magazines, I unlocked the stews only about 1-2 real hours before the dew collector. The dew collectors allow me to make stews without issue. Before that, there's steak and potatoes that is a good food option that doesn't require water and also requires fewer crops than the stews, making it also easier to cook before you have a farm really producing well (for those of us who don't put points into LotL right away). I also use 0% return for jars because I don't want empty jars to begin with, let alone having to get more whenever I drink something. Anyhow, I get that people like empty jars. And I get that people play the game differently than I do. I do a lot of scavenging in the early game so I have the resources I need to do a decent base early in the game rather than trying to focus on building the base immediately. After all, there isn't any real need for a base for the first few days. I'll drop a few storage crates by the trader until I have a base with storage set up and, if needed, I'll even drop a workstation or two there in a land claim so I can move them when I build a base. But for those who want to spend the first days building a base or mining or whatever instead of scavenging, the game will play out differently for them.

So basically, what the fun pimps should have done, is allow people to click E on a water source, and have it give you 1 unit if murky water, instead of drinking it. I wonder if that would be possible in the game engine.

That would be an option, though it would require a delay between collecting water so you aren't going to spam click a lot of times to have a ton of water (maybe 10 seconds between clicks). There are other options that also wouldn't require empty jars, such as use a bucket like I had mentioned. The bucket would be a decent gate because of the cost of a bucket in the early game so you're not likely to build too many right away and have to keep going back and forth to collect more water. Water is still unlimited, but then again, a single goldenrod tea or vitamin or the helmet water mod lets you drink water up to 200 (2x the water bar length) in a very short time. There are food options that don't require water. Early glue isn't hard to get enough of if people are scavenging a decent amount. So water is already unlimited on day 1.

So with 100 clicks in the first 2 minutes you ll have 100 water? No thank you.

Not to mention the "OMG!! Jars are created from thin air!!11!" crowd.

You'd need a delay between each jar you gather. Consider it the time to fill the jar and put a lid on and store the jar safely in your backpack and grab the next jar. Some would still just sit there forever to gather a ton of water right away, but the time it takes would make most not bother and only grab what they need at the moment. And yes, it doesn't solve the thin air complaint, but I really don't think that's what people really are upset about even if they say that. Most seem to have wanted a way to get water from a water source, so offering that option is probably enough for most who want immersion. But it doesn't really matter anyhow since they already added empty jars back and they won't remove them again at this point.

 

[meganoth]

Water is basically unlimited from day 1 anyhow.

For YOU. Other people, other ways to play. A lot depends on the difficulty you set compared to your skills and what you do in the first days.

 

[Riamus]

For YOU. Other people, other ways to play. A lot depends on the difficulty you set compared to your skills and what you do in the first days.

I really don't see why it isn't. You can drink your fill at any water source if you want to risk dysentery, and that can be avoided with a vitamin, goldenrod tea, or the helmet water mod. That makes hydration water infinite already. I rarely ever do that other than once for the challenge, but it is there if I have bad RNG. In almost every game, with mostly default settings (including default loot), I get plenty of drinks even in 2.5 after they removed a lot of the murky water. Yes, I scavenge or quest a lot in the first days so that I have resources and not everyone does that. However, if a person struggles with water, wouldn't it make sense to make a choice that will help them manage water? If they have no issues with water, then by all means, don't scavenge or quest if you don't want. If this were real life (for those who want realism or immersion), what would you do in this situation? Sit around building stuff for days (in this game, no base is actually necessary other than for horde night if you don't want to fight in the streets or for aesthetics), or going out and getting necessary resource like food and drinks, among other things? Once you are in a good place for resources, then you focus on other things. There's nothing wrong with wanting to build. Building is a major part of the game for me. But I also play the game, which means gathering resources so that I have what is necessary to survive and to build.

But it doesn't really change what I was responding to. The question is whether or not adding something that makes infinite water on day 1 if you abuse it is really any different from being able to get plenty of water on day 1 as the game is currently designed. Water from a water source is already infinite for hydration. All other water you get can be used for crafting or cooking. The return of empty jars already makes for infinite water even for that if you don't use 0% return because you can just keep reusing the jars (abusing it). If you could get 1 jar of murky water every 10 seconds or so from any water source without empty jars being in the game, that may be infinite, but most people aren't likely abuse it because of the time involved. They'll get what they need. And there are other options that don't require empty jars as I mentioned earlier that aren't as easily abused for infinite water.

In any case, TFP has not made any changes to water that make water more difficult from the early game. Unless you play in a way that leaves you without resources (not scavenging or questing), you should get enough water without much difficulty. If you lower loot settings, then you are choosing to make it more difficult to get loot (including water) and that should not be considered a bad thing because it was your choice to use that setting. Maybe with the upcoming settings update, there will be a breakdown for loot so you can adjust loot abundance for different kinds of items - food, drink, medical, weapons, armor, etc. Then people could leave drinks at 100% if it's too much of a challenge for them, while still lowering it for other things if that's what they want. That could be a good thing to have added to the settings.

There is food that you can make that doesn't require water, so if you have low water, you can cook those other foods without using any water until you have a decent water source. That, combined with infinite water from a water source as mentioned above for hydration, means the only thing you really need to worry about water for is glue. Is it entirely necessary to make hundreds of glue in the first week? You can get dew collectors by the time most people would need to worry about glue that they aren't finding while scavenging.

Now, I agree some people will still have trouble. There are new players who don't know what to do to find specific things. There are even veteran players who play in a way that limits their loot greatly, either by settings or by avoiding scavenging. But I would guess (yes, it's a guess for those who are constantly complaining about not knowing actual numbers) that most players (over 50%) and probably the vast majority (over 75%) of players scavenge enough in the first week to find enough water even in 2.5. Whether or not you want to call that "infinite" is up to you, but if you can get more than enough in every game without having to put in any real effort, then it doesn't really change anything to have literally infinite water.

 

[meganoth]

I really don't see why it isn't. You can drink your fill at any water source if you want to risk dysentery, and that can be avoided with a vitamin, goldenrod tea, or the helmet water mod. That makes hydration water infinite already.

Oh god, can't read all that text. But already in your first 3 sentences you go wild with assumptions. A vitamin? The chance to find one is there, sure. Sometimes I find one in the first 2 days, sometimes not. When not and I get dysentery I have wasted time for nothing, but even if not I have replaced one problem with another as I get damage and food is scarce as well. Goldenrod tea is only available after finding a few magazines and a cooking thingy whatever it is called again. But the problem is solved already, right?

I also win the lottery if I just add a few "If"s

 

[Riamus]

Oh god, can't read all that text. But already in your first 3 sentences you go wild with assumptions. A vitamin? The chance to find one is there, sure. Sometimes I find one in the first 2 days, sometimes not. When not and I get dysentery I have wasted time for nothing, but even if not I have replaced one problem with another as I get damage and food is scarce as well. Goldenrod tea is only available after finding a few magazines and a cooking thingy whatever it is called again. But the problem is solved already, right?

I also win the lottery if I just add a few "If"s

If you are going out scavenging, you are likely to find drinks, meaning no need to drink from a water source. And you're also likely to find a goldenrod tea or a vitamin. They aren't that uncommon, even in 2.5. And if you aren't going out scavenging and running around a lot, you aren't using as much water, so with the water you start with, you should have no problems for the first couple of days. And dehydrating isn't even a significant problem, especially if you're just hanging out at your base all day. Dysentery isn't even that big of a problem if you happen to get it. But the we were talking about whether you can get plenty of water (infinite water) or not as the game is right now. Yes, you can. Is there potential risk? Sure. Can it be avoided without too much effort? Yes.

 

[Jost Amman]

If you are going out scavenging, you are likely to find drinks, meaning no need to drink from a water source. And you're also likely to find a goldenrod tea or a vitamin. They aren't that uncommon, even in 2.5. And if you aren't going out scavenging and running around a lot, you aren't using as much water, so with the water you start with, you should have no problems for the first couple of days. And dehydrating isn't even a significant problem, especially if you're just hanging out at your base all day. Dysentery isn't even that big of a problem if you happen to get it. But the we were talking about whether you can get plenty of water (infinite water) or not as the game is right now. Yes, you can. Is there potential risk? Sure. Can it be avoided without too much effort? Yes.

That's not my experience.