Roland's Top Ten Ranked: Items that have been added

[Roland]

Good answer, but I wonder whether those POIs once discovered and entered into once would forever afterward be skipped because....boring. If there was no loot room then people into efficiency wouldn't bother. They already say there's no point to just exploring POIs without a quest since there's no reward attached to doing. If there was a loot room then they would be monopolized by people into efficiency because the loot room would be so much more easily accessed. Interesting thought exercise to wonder how different types of players would react to POIs like that added to the game.

 

[Rotor]

Good answer, but I wonder whether those POIs once discovered and entered into once would forever afterward be skipped because....boring. If there was no loot room then people into efficiency wouldn't bother. They already say there's no point to just exploring POIs without a quest since there's no reward attached to doing. If there was a loot room then they would be monopolized by people into efficiency because the loot room would be so much more easily accessed. Interesting thought exercise to wonder how different types of players would react to POIs like that added to the game.

I see, the min/maxers are the problem.

j/k.....but

 

[Rotor]

I mean, does everyone in this world have their homes set up so there is really only one path through it?

I think they learned the Zs AI pathing right before the attacks.

I think TFP only learned it after Axx whenever it changed .

If i may get off topic for minute, just had a thought (I know dangerous). If dungeon PoIs are linear pathing, it is obvious to me, now, then that is the way BM bases need to be .

Sorry if it doesnt make sense, I am a post op drug induced extra existential mood atm .

 

[theFlu]

They already say there's no point to just exploring POIs without a quest since there's no reward attached to doing.

Yeh, adding those wouldn't solve the draw of the quest loop; that's a separate discussion... From that point of view they would be a waste of space, but maybe the world needs some "decorated emptiness" too? Atm everything is either questable or completely ignored (tier zeros / ruins), so at worst nothing would change there. Just more places with little interest. But it might be a slight shift towards a more "immersive" world, there would be Some interest in checking them out, even if not as an arena for repeated play.

 

[grz__]

Good answer, but I wonder whether those POIs once discovered and entered into once would forever afterward be skipped because....boring. If there was no loot room then people into efficiency wouldn't bother. They already say there's no point to just exploring POIs without a quest since there's no reward attached to doing. If there was a loot room then they would be monopolized by people into efficiency because the loot room would be so much more easily accessed. Interesting thought exercise to wonder how different types of players would react to POIs like that added to the game.

Just an idea, scatter all that final loot among the different rooms, ammo boxes, gun cabinets, closets, basement storage freezers, emergency bunkers, etc. and have each type of object make sense where you find it.

 

[Kalen]

Good answer, but I wonder whether those POIs once discovered and entered into once would forever afterward be skipped because....boring. If there was no loot room then people into efficiency wouldn't bother. They already say there's no point to just exploring POIs without a quest since there's no reward attached to doing. If there was a loot room then they would be monopolized by people into efficiency because the loot room would be so much more easily accessed. Interesting thought exercise to wonder how different types of players would react to POIs like that added to the game.

Yeah, probably so. For me, one of the best changes they could make to the dungeon style POIs, is some randomization. Have different places the loot room could be.... sometimes have no loot room (as an aside, I don't like loot rooms, I feel they remove the need to find specific POIs for different types of loot).

I agree that going to a POI without a quest feels less rewarding, so I seldom do so. Thats what I miss about earlier versions of the game.... I used to look for things like book stores and tool stores so I could find books & tools. Now I can get all that from a loot room in any POI so there is no incentive (other than exploration) to go to specific POIs

 

[Grandpa Minion]

It is hard for me to understand why anyone would want less of the modern POIs and more of the legacy POIs.

A straightforward simple question warrants a straightforward simple response:
Attractiveness does not always prevail,
while many desire a beautiful partner or spouse, it does not imply that they are free from complications and baggage they could bring.
"honey, go buy me that mercedes"

 

[Kyoji]

I was talking more about how POIs are mazelike and cramped now compared to being open and empty like they used to be. Whether zombies are in closets, in the ceiling, or on the ground doesn't make very much difference to me either. But the level design of POIs in the modern game are leaps and bounds beyond the building interiors of the legacy game, imo.

It is hard for me to understand why anyone would want less of the modern POIs and more of the legacy POIs. I pretty much skip over all the new remnants they've added simply because they are empty and boring. I'd hate it if 50% of the POIs were like that. But different strokes for different folks....

The "look" of the designs is leagues ahead, but there are some things that hold them back such as sleeper zombies and zombies triggers. They are both good and bad at the same time. Good in that it gives you a challenge, but bad in that it feels artificial (for example zombies spawning in once you touch the bottom of the stairs in the tier one gas station POI, whereas if you are at the top looking down it shows empty) and that it really does a number on being able to stealth.

So for me they are both simultaneously amazing and annoying.

Post automatically merged: Friday at 10:56 AM

Good answer, but I wonder whether those POIs once discovered and entered into once would forever afterward be skipped because....boring. If there was no loot room then people into efficiency wouldn't bother. They already say there's no point to just exploring POIs without a quest since there's no reward attached to doing. If there was a loot room then they would be monopolized by people into efficiency because the loot room would be so much more easily accessed. Interesting thought exercise to wonder how different types of players would react to POIs like that added to the game.

They shouldn't have loot rooms. They should be spread throughout the POI.

 

[Vaeliorin]

If there was a loot room then they would be monopolized by people into efficiency because the loot room would be so much more easily accessed.

People already nerd pole/dig/whatever into loot rooms before starting quests, or just as they're passing by, so I don't know that this would be that much of a change.

Like others have said, it just bothers me that every building has for some reason been turned into an anti-zombie fortress.

 

[ilexev]

Ouais, ajouter ça ne résoudrait pas l'attrait de la boucle de quêtes ; c'est un autre sujet… De ce point de vue, ce serait un gaspillage d'espace, mais peut-être que le monde a aussi besoin d'un peu de « vide décoré » ? Pour l'instant, tout est soit quêteable, soit complètement ignoré (niveau zéro/ruines), donc au pire, rien ne changerait. Juste plus d'endroits sans grand intérêt. Mais cela pourrait constituer un léger changement vers un monde plus « immersif », il y aurait un intérêt à les découvrir, même si ce n'est pas comme une arène pour des parties répétées.

For exemple, the house completly burned, in the hide basement ?

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 6:07 AM

@Roland hi, did you read or put all the idea in a dedicated bloc note or something ?

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

For me I agree with the need for randomization of poi internal layout
regarding loot and zombies, even rooms configuration.

Why? Human memory, and retention, If people had the retention memory
of a fruit fly the layout would be perfect. But, Once achieved or transgressed
replay-ability slowly becomes a speed run. And the request for more pois ensues.

IRL example: After once for some and a few times for others, you can move through
your home in the dark with your eyes closed, without stubbing your toe or falling
over a table, while heading for the kitchen or toilet.

In game example: No matter how difficult the AI becomes if they are always
in the same locations, memory will kick in. Now if all players had temporary
STML like Dory while playing then again it would be perfect.

A few mods I played altered the rules, and included additional loot containers
that meant more involvement in finding what you were looking for. Of course
there are those that would dislike it and label it as inconvenient of annoying
because it changes knowns and expectations. So there is no perfect solution.

There is one kitchen cabinet that I have always wondered about, the one in
the upper corner.

If there were an algorithm that rotated randomization of placements, then 1 poi
structure could be similar to a near infinite replay. That is why I posted "I hope
they make it Fuzzy" meaning fuzzy logic. Which is a lot simpler that neural net,
just a hierarchy of yes and nos.

Like what if loot were under a sofa, or in a wall that was not warped, or behind
a fridge, or buried in the yard, or behind a new brick wall, and not always labeled.

I don't know how much data that would add, If they are randomly set to on/off as
to having loot there or not, and turning on/off randomized placement of loot helpers.

The mechanic is already in place, that is how cars, and loot containers populate the
terrain. That is the one of the last steps after terrain gen, populating the random
loot around the world on the ground. It would definitely change the rules if it were
applied to the POIS and their internal layout.

 

[n2n1]

1) Improved pathing:
//// I returned to A16 and the pathing of the zombies was abysmal. They would simply run in circles or endless run up and down ladders and get stuck on corners and blocks. In my opinion the improved AI and pathing that TFP added post A16 has greatly improved the game.

they started running in circles and skipping waypoints after the "AI improvement" began.
You won't see this behavior before the A15

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

It is hard for me to understand why anyone would want less of the modern POIs and more of the legacy POIs. I pretty much skip over all the new remnants they've added simply because they are empty and boring. I'd hate it if 50% of the POIs were like that. But different strokes for different folks....

I don´t want legacy POI´s. I want modern POI´s that aren´t dungeon style. Why does everything have to be one extreme only? Why do i want non dungeon style POIs? For the variety, it´s more fun if not every POI is the same scheme, the whole follow the lamps and holes in the wall get´s boring if you do it all the time. Variety makes games more interesting. Literally never a bad thing for a game if not overdone.

Not being a dungoen style POI doesn´t have to mean that everything is always easy to find in there. They just must not fall into their habit of doing it to an extreme again and this could be a great addition to the game.

 

[Roland]

the whole follow the lamps and holes in the wall get´s boring if you do it all the time.

Hmmm…so you do that all the time? I agree that if I did that all the time I’d probably get bored as well but I treat the world as fully destructible and go where I want most of the time. It’s interesting that people play the game in ways they believe they must and then complain about the way they are playing.

I must follow the lights.
I must sit idly inside during a storm.
I must spend the first two days doing nothing but opening mailboxes and raiding bookstores.
I must do three jobs a day.
I must, I must, I must…

No. You don’t.

 

[Kyoji]

Hmmm…so you do that all the time? I agree that if I did that all the time I’d probably get bored as well but I treat the world as fully destructible and go where I want most of the time. It’s interesting that people play the game in ways they believe they must and then complain about the way they are playing.

I must follow the lights.
I must sit idly inside during a storm.
I must spend the first two days doing nothing but opening mailboxes and raiding bookstores.
I must do three jobs a day.
I must, I must, I must…

No. You don’t.

You can do nothing and die on day 7 also. The idea isn't that you can or can't do something, but rather the game heavily encourages questing. The game is time sensitive so it trains the mind that being efficient is good as it means being better prepared.

Also, full destructible gives more credence to the idea of removing loot rooms IMO.

I don´t want legacy POI´s. I want modern POI´s that aren´t dungeon style. Why does everything have to be one extreme only? Why do i want non dungeon style POIs? For the variety, it´s more fun if not every POI is the same scheme, the whole follow the lamps and holes in the wall get´s boring if you do it all the time. Variety makes games more interesting. Literally never a bad thing for a game if not overdone.

Not being a dungoen style POI doesn´t have to mean that everything is always easy to find in there. They just must not fall into their habit of doing it to an extreme again and this could be a great addition to the game.

I think it depends on the size. While thinking about it I can understand people getting lost in a T5 POI that is completely open. Having multiple doors with dead ends such as bathrooms, kitchens or even kitchens leading to a bathroom are fine to make it feel more open, but generally I think open designs would be best suited for smaller POIs such as houses where common knowledge of house designs help direct the player whereas I might not understand a military complex.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Hmmm…so you do that all the time? I agree that if I did that all the time I’d probably get bored as well but I treat the world as fully destructible and go where I want most of the time. It’s interesting that people play the game in ways they believe they must and then complain about the way they are playing.

I must follow the lights.
I must sit idly inside during a storm.
I must spend the first two days doing nothing but opening mailboxes and raiding bookstores.
I must do three jobs a day.
I must, I must, I must…

No. You don’t.

You know what TFP must not do? Stick to only one style of POI. Why is this so hard to accept that people want something else? Why is variety bad? What´s the problem with having non dungeon style POIs? There is proof that they work just fine when mixed in for having a good time with all those custom POis that aren´t dungeon style. See @zztong POIs, they are quite popular and most of them are non dungeon style. Doesn´t make them easy btw. Non dungeon style doesn´t automatically mean old pre A17 POIs there is a ton of options between that and dungeon style.

All you ever do is stubbornly defend what TFP does. It get´s old. That´s not what a community manager should do, if that is what you are supposed to be now, but that should be a full time job, best in their office, with an unbiased opinion. So someone fresh. The job should be to communicate between the player base and the developers and not trying to talk players out of their suggestions.

@Kyoji Lost as people already are with the current POIs? It works, go and try compopack and see for yourself. Sure some overdo it, looking at you here whoever made that magic castle, but if TFP does them, they can make sure it doesn´t get to wild. Hopefully.

 

[thatguybeard]

I mean it would be nice if at least the lamps and bodies that show to guide the path didn’t show up until a quest beacon was triggered. How hard would that be to do? Are any like that besides the remnants? Console so new here haven’t explored them all. Worth a pimp dream?

 

[meganoth]

I mean it would be nice if at least the lamps and bodies that show to guide the path didn’t show up until a quest beacon was triggered. How hard would that be to do? Are any like that besides the remnants? Console so new here haven’t explored them all. Worth a pimp dream?

I like that idea. And it should be possible with the lamps as it is exactly what fetch quests must do with the item to fetch. I am just not quite sure if it can be done without editing ALL POIs, as there might also be lamps in some that are just lamps without a pointer function.

 

[meganoth]

they started running in circles and skipping waypoints after the "AI improvement" began.
You won't see this behavior before the A15

I don't know (I started playing with A15) but AFAIK those improvement attempts were probably tries to add new functionality to the old AI code, and those tries showed that it was unmaintainable and could not be improved to support bandits as well (from memory what Fataal said once). So between A16 and A17 the old code was thrown out and rewritten from ground up (by Fataal).

Probably it could have been possible to keep the old code and add a parallel code for bandits but that would have multiple disadvantages in my view:
1) Only one type of zombie intelligence, no way to gradually have more intelligent zombies
2) Double maintenance in case of changes
3) Impossible to add features to zombie behaviour
4) Complicated XML with different language for zombies and bandits
5) Some new feature they want could even be impossible to implement just because nobody wants to touch that old code.

 

[Roland]

You know what TFP must not do? Stick to only one style of POI. Why is this so hard to accept that people want something else? Why is variety bad? What´s the problem with having non dungeon style POIs? There is proof that they work just fine when mixed in for having a good time with all those custom POis that aren´t dungeon style. See @zztong POIs, they are quite popular and most of them are non dungeon style. Doesn´t make them easy btw. Non dungeon style doesn´t automatically mean old pre A17 POIs there is a ton of options between that and dungeon style.

Sure. I agree that a variety is good. I’m not against that but in this thread I’m expressing gratitude for those things I like that have been added and I like dungeon style POIs more than the plain POIs we used to have. If there are other styles that can be done that aren’t just going back to what we used to have, I’m all for that. I’d love an option to remove the guiding lights.

All you ever do is stubbornly defend what TFP does. It get´s old. That´s not what a community manager should do, if that is what you are supposed to be now, but that should be a full time job, best in their office, with an unbiased opinion. So someone fresh. The job should be to communicate between the player base and the developers and not trying to talk players out of their suggestions.

Well then I guess we both agree that I’m not a community manager and I’m not striving to be one…obviously….

Whenever they hire one of those guys you can expect to be properly petted by them. Again, though, you are one of those who automatically assumes that I could only possibly say that I like features you don’t because I must be an official shill. I’m not trying to talk anyone out of their suggestions. I’m just expressing what I like and I sincerely enjoy the modern vanilla game. My opposing opinion has no power to invalidate yours. Both can be expressed and neither stops the developers from doing what they are going to do.