Why DONT you want jars

simple question deserves a simple answer..
simply put people are lazy, they would rather have a dew collector do the work for them instead of worrying about what it took to make jars and the effort to fill them.
I played Darkness falls recently and they still have jars. I made a forge day 1, dug up sand from the side of the road and crafted a stack of 120~ish jars over 20 mins. Then filled them from a ditch on the side of said road and boiled them, never caring about thirst for the rest of the play through. Can you explain how having infinite water day 1 vs a dew collector giving one water a day is the lazy option?
 
Can you explain how having infinite water day 1 vs a dew collector giving one water a day is the lazy option?
sure its not just about water, its about the jars. Players used to have to craft them, for instance to make black strap coffee than take those jars somewhere to fill them meaning more travel and exploring was needed to do so. Than it becomes a trickle down effect, players had to farm glass to make the jars which means they had to travel to go get the glass.
 
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I played Darkness falls recently and they still have jars. I made a forge day 1, dug up sand from the side of the road and crafted a stack of 120~ish jars over 20 mins. Then filled them from a ditch on the side of said road and boiled them, never caring about thirst for the rest of the play through. Can you explain how having infinite water day 1 vs a dew collector giving one water a day is the lazy option?
Maybe part of the problem is being able to get a forge on day 1? Thats not to say that crafting 200+ jars wasn't too easy, it was.... but, IMO, there were better ways to solve the problem then completely removing something from the game.
 
I guess you already did:

Why are you allowed a forge on D1?

Why aren't you worried about things _other_ than digging sand on D1? Like, say, looking for stuff to keep you alive until you can find a forge recipe?
It's not like the early game zombies are a threat, Vanilla or DF, well unless your playing Hell on Earth difficulty. In which case the ■■■■ things slap.

Vanilla wise its actually easier than in DF to get a forge day one, the 10 leather is probably harder than the 5 books, as you will usually get 2-3 from looting the first trader.
Finally digging up the sand only took like 3 minutes out of a 60 minute day, that's hardly a challenge.
Maybe part of the problem is being able to get a forge on day 1? Thats not to say that crafting 200+ jars wasn't too easy, it was.... but, IMO, there were better ways to solve the problem then completely removing something from the game.
Yeah my problem was not so much the Jars themselves, it was how easy it was to get said jars and therefore infinite water using them. I don't particularly care if they are bought back, just don't want water to never be an issue, it's a survival game after all.


sure its not just about water, its about the jars. Players used to have to craft them, for instance to make black strap coffee than take those jars somewhere to fill them meaning more travel and exploring was needed to do so. Than it becomes a trickle down effect, players had to farm glass to make the jars which means they had to travel to go get the glass.
Based on what i said in the post you replied to, almost none of what you say is true. There is water everywhere so you don't have to do any significant traveling, and there is sand on the edge of every road as well so the resources needed are trivial.

Your suggestion that a forge, sand and water was a harder system than dew collectors limited jars of water per day boggled my mind.


Edit: As a side note, someone on reddit said he believed getting a workbench and making a t1 double barrel would be difficult before the end of the first week. I thought it would be achievable day 1 so i gave it a go. Managed to get the workbench down but only 7/11 of the shotgun messiah books by midnight on my first attempt.
 
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You can not accept the fact 81% of people feel the same way as i do who voted for jars to be brought back.
You asked me a question and i gave you the answer than your response was to make an insult.
"Typical" next time don't waste my time kid.
Apologies friend for any insult offered, i think either you have misunderstood my reply, or i have misunderstood yours.
 
I played Darkness falls recently and they still have jars. I made a forge day 1, dug up sand from the side of the road and crafted a stack of 120~ish jars over 20 mins. Then filled them from a ditch on the side of said road and boiled them, never caring about thirst for the rest of the play through. Can you explain how having infinite water day 1 vs a dew collector giving one water a day is the lazy option?
I think a lot of the feedback from players I have seen is asking for jars to return but to also ADD IN coding to make it more difficult to get water. So people want jars, but they also want the developers to make it harder to get water. So it's not a one for one transition of the old water system basically.

TBH many of the ideas others had presented on the matter are bad so I still don't want non-consume on use jars back.

spartan-85 just released a video of his population and it looks 81% of people voted to bring jars back
keep spreading false propaganda and ignoring what the mass of people want.
There will be people who still think that nearly 2k votes is a minority, so for those who dislike the idea of jars it won't stop them from whining about the silent majority rather than actually formulate proper arguments on why they shouldn't return.
 
I think a lot of the feedback from players I have seen is asking for jars to return but to also ADD IN coding to make it more difficult to get water. So people want jars, but they also want the developers to make it harder to get water. So it's not a one for one transition of the old water system basically.

TBH many of the ideas others had presented on the matter are bad so I still don't want non-consume on use jars back.
That's exactly why i stay on the side of not wanting Jars. Non consume jars does solve some of the problem but not all of it imo.
It's the same thing for removing Dew Collectors and returning to jars, i have yet to see a single good reason why jars are better.
 
I think a lot of the feedback from players I have seen is asking for jars to return but to also ADD IN coding to make it more difficult to get water. So people want jars, but they also want the developers to make it harder to get water. So it's not a one for one transition of the old water system basically.

TBH many of the ideas others had presented on the matter are bad so I still don't want non-consume on use jars back.


There will be people who still think that nearly 2k votes is a minority, so for those who dislike the idea of jars it won't stop them from whining about the silent majority rather than actually formulate proper arguments on why they shouldn't return.

Just to be clear, the population of that poll is probably as skewed because of selection bias as this forum would be. I don't say who is the majority or minority, I just say that those numbers have to be taken with a grain of salt just like one would take a poll on this forum.

And actually a lot of people have put up arguments why they don't like the return of jars, just read this thread with open eyes.
 
simple question deserves a simple answer..
simply put people are lazy, they would rather have a dew collector do the work for them instead of worrying about what it took to make jars and the effort to fill them.
Yup people are lazy, they want to be able to get infinite water on day 1 by making a bunch of glass jars and running to the nearest water source, and never having to think about water again. You know as opposed to having it trickle in, looting the water from pois, and scrambling to have the water needed for glue, food and drink.
 
i have yet to see a single good reason why jars are better.
there is litterally 6 pages in this thread about it....
either you have horrible comprehension skills or simply do not want to accept the fact removing jars (-1 7d2d survivability) (+1 another assest removed) those are two things alone.
 
Just to be clear, the population of that poll is probably as skewed because of selection bias as this forum would be. I don't say who is the majority or minority, I just say that those numbers have to be taken with a grain of salt just like one would take a poll on this forum.

And actually a lot of people have put up arguments why they don't like the return of jars, just read this thread with open eyes.
Likewise a lot have posted they do want them so if anything the forum is a 50/50 split I would argue. Combine that with the poll and you still have a majority who want them to return.

Keep in mind I am someone who doesn't want them to return and it's not because I have 7D2D cope, but rather I think it's wasted development time and many of the solutions people have offered are subpar in fixing the problem and go on to create further problems. So unless they make jars consume on use I don't see how they won't be problematic in other areas. Also, having to throw jars away is a stupid problem to have when you throw out so much stuff as it is. I don't even see that as an actual argument against jars.
 
Without polling every player (it at least the car majority of them), you can't say that the results of a poll are an accurate representation of the whole. However, you can take a step back from what you want to see and consider what is likely...

What group(s) of gamers generally would want jars? Those who want a simulation. Those who want a certain level of immersion and consider jars to be significant enough to hamper that. Who else?

Next, what group(s) of gamers generally don't care at all about jars? Casual gamers. Action gamers. RPG gamers.

Just looking at those two things and ignoring those who actively don't want jars back, it is pretty reasonable to think that most gamers don't even care about jars. And even if you disagree about the groups I listed, keeping in mind that I said generally and obviously you will have people who disagree in those groups, you can make your own group lists and then consider what percentage of gamers for into each group.

In the end, ignoring what each of us prefers and just looking at what the average gamer would actually care about should show that the majority don't even care about jars. Now, I won't argue about which group between those who want them and those who don't is more populous because there is no way to know that. But just looking at those who don't care about them at all, it should be clear that it is very probably that the majority don't care about them. That means that time spent bringing jars back will be time spent doing something most don't care about or else don't want.

Also, don't forget that most games that have you drink things do not give you back with containers. If this game has never done so, almost no one would complain about it. So what that means is that almost all new players (those who never saw empty jars in the game) aren't going to even notice that there aren't empty jars because they don't see those in most other games either. That alone takes out a large chunk of current players who actually want jars back.
 
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Umm, "Because you know of better times, your opinion doesn't count"?
Huh? It takes out a lot of players because they (those I mentioned) are used to not having empty jars in this game and most other games, so aren't likely to even think about the jars not being there, especially with no other empty containers. And if they don't when notice the lack of empty jars, they obviously aren't asking for them to be added back.

I don't know how many new players this game actually has. What percent of active players started playing in A21 or more recently? It might not be really high, but then again, active players generally are those who are newer to a game, so it could be very high. Either way, it is a decent number of players.
 
Huh? It takes out a lot of players because they are used to not having enjoy jars
Tihihi.. I've heard of socks, but jars of enjoyment..? :)
In the same paragraph I snipped the quote from: "If this game has never done so, almost no one would complain about it."
As in, "if only people didn't know about the past".

You're running two discounts* for the price of one in that para:
- this new gen z generation of players have never wanted them, they want their things spoonfed and milquetoast
- people wouldn't be complaining if they hadn't experienced the loss

* discountings of opinion. The first is My discounting of the "it's a needless complication on my survival puzzler, I don't want to deal with an inventory", the second is your discounting of my opinion essentially because I was here for the jars.
 
What group(s) of gamers generally would want jars? Those who want a simulation. Those who want a certain level of immersion and consider jars to be significant enough to hamper that. Who else?

Next, what group(s) of gamers generally don't care at all about jars? Casual gamers. Action gamers. RPG gamers.
A fair assessment but not caring about jars /=/ not wanting them back. If most people don't care and there are quite a sizeable number than want them back even if only for memories sake then it doesn't seem to hurt putting them back in so long as the development time isn't excessive.

The issue with finding more specific information is that it doesn't take into account a myriad of factors. I don't post in a lot of forums for games as I don't always feel like my voice will change anything and so I don't bother. It doesn't mean I tacitly approve of anything. If you take the silent majority and were to get a definitive response I imagine at least some portion would want jars to return and some wouldn't. How many of each? Don't know.
Also, don't forget that most games that have you drink things do not give you back with containers. If this game has never done so, almost no one would complain about it. So what that means is that almost all new players (those who never saw empty jars in the game) aren't going to even notice that there aren't empty jars because they don't see those in most other games either. That alone takes out a large chunk of current players who actually want jars back.
I for one hope that IF they bring jars back they are consume on use like every other container.

For me jars doesn't fix any of the core problems I have with the direction from A16 to 2.0. In A16 you just ran around freely and ransacked areas with none of the loot room nonsense or quest progression that makes the game feel more like Skyrim than classic 7D2D.

Combine that with armor having magical qualities to it instead of practical things like armor and durability. We lost clothing and temperature which added some planning for each biome early on. Yes, the clothing looked like crap, but I think current armor should be less like Skyrim or World of Warcraft. So, for me, we traded mechanics for looks.

From my understanding we had sleeper zombies introduced in A15 or A16 but didn't have "trigger zones" and instead zombies would wake based on sound. This made sneaking much more viable and none of the I opened a door so everything wakes up nonsense or zombies sleeping behind a desk I can't see behind without triggering the zombie. While there were drawbacks to the former in that you could chain pull the enemies to kill zones I think the pendulum swung too far in the other direction. They talked about roaming/wandering zombies so hopefully that seems some light.

We lost part quality and schematics which I think is much better than the current system of 0-6. Wet concrete was a thing that made planning more meaningful and had some sense of realism to it and while not a big issue it just points towards the continual simplification of the games mechanics.

- this new gen z generation of players have never wanted them, they want their things spoonfed and milquetoast
- people wouldn't be complaining if they hadn't experienced the loss
I know you are quoting someone else but not sure what this means...

I don't know where people think Gen Z don't like jars. Is this a thing people think? I get that they receive a lot of disdain but it typically is the same disdain boomers have for Gen X or Gen X has for Millennials.

I also don't think people would be complaining if they hadn't experienced jars and honestly don't know why they are even now. We lost gas canisters, cans, etc. Where is the outrage there? I get that it makes water sources valuable so I am with you there but, what else does it provide outside of that? Realism left long ago so I don't think that is a good enough reason to warrant it's return.
 
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