EvilPolygons
Survivor
D'oh!
Why DONT you want jars
- Thread starter Adam the Waster
- Start date
D'oh!
BFT2020
Hunter
Rotor
Survivor
I got millions of players that agree with me that Jars should never come back
I have 1km cubic ton
that don't care about jars but want to play camping simulator with Zs.
Kyoji
Survivor
Not sure why this is even an issue. You throw stuff out literally all the time. Why would a jar be that much of an issue for anyone?
Temperature should come back and you should have to change for weather. It's survival 101.
How is it too easy to collect water from jars and it removes survival but, you can't be bothered to wear clothing for temperature differences? You just want some armor that does it all huh? Sounds like a survival game isn't what some of you want.
In ARK I understand it can be annoying as the armor was tied in with the temperature so you may have to choose between temperature and armor rating. But 7D2D has armor separate from clothing. Is it tedious to swap clothing? Yes. It's not meant to be easy. It's also not easy to farm resources and run through several POIs to get the next tier from traders. It's required as anything that comes easy isn't worth having to begin with.
I think another aspect not as well recognized is the dumbing down of the game. I can understand simplifying some systems, but sometimes it goes too far and we are all paying for it.
FenixMatariki
Refugee
This is true, however i believe my answer is still applicable. If the Jars system offered easy infinite water, and the dew collector offers less easy infinite water, why would i not choose the option that results in a more challenging game with less tedium attached. Though to be clear it doesn't mean i have any attachment to either system. My desire is a more challenging survival system where water decisions early are more meaningful.
Perhaps there is a world where they could have balanced the Jars system instead of removing it outright. However i have yet to see a single argument that offers a reasonable way of balancing them. People seem to want craftable, lootable, reusable jars and it just doesn't make for good survival game play.
While the temperature system had some positives i don't feel it added anything particularly meaningful to the games survival nature, outside of not being able to run around naked in the snow! Taking on and off the leather duster every time the clouds covered the sun did not make survival harder, it was pure tedium and nothing more.
Had the Storms and severe weather mechanics actually been any good i would have no complaints about the previous systems removal/simplification. Oh, except they removed the insulated linings which gave me explosion resistance against my own rockets, please bring those back TFP.
While there is plenty more i could say on the matter of clothing i have no desire to derail this threads original purpose so will stop here.
Kyoji
Survivor
Consume on use. Problem. Solved.
Solves giving water sources value and if you remove or reduce murky water in exchange for empty jars you made water collection more difficult not easier and not by a lot. But it's a simple solution that is also easy to code.
Of course I understand some don't like that but I also don't care much for Jars either.
People who think stack size will make any real difference in difficultly are simply wrong.
People who think breaking on impact fail to understand that will effectively ruin longer POIs unless you just don't get hit. Those who think fall damage should be the operative word don't understand that nothing will change then as few take fall damage.
Making the recipe harder means you lose access to early water and it still doesn't solve the issue of glue being too easy to craft. Making them craftable runs into the same problem of its either too easy or too difficult as you would have to lower loot values for crafting to make any difference and if it's easy to craft it doesn't change anything and if too hard then we revert back to the first premise.
Having water loot only doesn't change anything and generally any reuseable concept is very different from every other container and makes balancing water harder than it's worth to implement.
Water later in the game should be less of a concern, never irrelevant. IMO that is poor game design.
The only way to have jars, specifically, work IMO is making them consume on use like every other item. Swapping out murky water for jars makes water more challenging to find early on without making it too difficult.
Also canteens could be a mid game solution but would have to be just in addition to current water systems as a canteen wouldnt really work for glue crafting.
From a simulation/realism perspective features that just add brainless tedious task like swapping clothes make sense. From a gameplay perspective such actions only add minimal complexity. Only when you have choices does it offer meaningful gameplay and only then is the removal really simplyifying systems in a substantial way. So I don't think it is fair to accuse people of wanting to "dumb down" a game when a practically "dumb" system is removed.
Naturally how much tedious tasks someone likes in his game (for the sake of realism or just having a lot of stuff do do) is up to personal taste. It doesn't say anything about your intelligence if you like many dumb mechanics in your game for whatever reason, but it goes in direction of hardcore survival when many such systems are in the game. For this game with "light" survival gameplay temperature stuff is (IMHO) at most an optional thing.
theFlu
Hunter
(passive 'you')
I still don't get why this was entered into the equation. Yeah, it's the only use for water in crafting, but if you want to limit early glue, just make it bone limited. If you really want to have a crafting versus consuming competition, make more recipes require water; like forged iron / quenching.
But, since you don't really Need to craft anything, ever; by design. "All playstyles should be roughly equal, whether you get your gear from crafting, looting or buying." seems to be a major guiding factor in the design. If you can skip crafting entirely, then it obviously follows that a contest between crafting and drinking is just not going to be a thing.
Kyoji
Survivor
It's not the action of changing clothes that adds value. It's the variety of clothing you need to find to maximize the temperature values for zones. It's why anyone bothered to loot the clothing stores.
Now if you had slots for hot and cold you wouldn't have to swap but then it's unusual in the UI.
If you just have a duster do everything then temperature might as well not exist. Which is why needing to swap is almost necessary for temperature to come back.
Also the dumbing down of the game has been happening for a while at least IMO. Feral sense being worse than smell, parts quality changed to only 6, concrete no longer needing to be cured. I could go on but generally speaking the game is less complex than it was and some I think was justified such as removing sticks. Now whether people agree with what I consider good or bad is completely subjective so I won't quibble over it.
You suggesting temperature is optional goes on to prove my point. When people called out temperature being a missing feature fans were quick to say it's coming back. I'll wait to see it back before I give them credit for something that isn't in the game yet but from the sounds of it people want it dumbed down too.
Post automatically merged:
TFP stated that was one of the reasons.
Sapient6
Scavenger
I think the two are meant to be intertwined: limit early glue and force an early game decision of "do I make glue or drinks". But I don't know that this is a survival problem that can be introduced to the game in a meaningful way without making it "too hard" for new players. From time to time I see people mentioning that water is too hard to get in this game right now, but I guess I've been playing too long to understand that... the only time I struggle with thirst in the game now is if I start a new one and my spawn is out in the middle of nowhere and it takes me more than a day to find a settlement.
Hell yeah.
theFlu
Hunter
Yes, that's what I'm wondering about; why did they?
Can they not see that it's not going to work with the rest of their design?
Kyoji
Survivor
As an addendum to my previous post. Temperature adds danger to the game. It's similar to why we have zombies. If done properly, it is a milestone you have to overcome early on in progression much like how you get progressively more adept at taking out zombies and like how zombies get stronger zones can get more challenging such as the Wasteland with it's radiation.
Temperature adds risk to reward by having players overcome harsh temperature and even in the mid game can challenge players as you might not have the specific gear or mods necessary to fully offset the difficulty of that biome so you may have to prepare and plan better and when you don't you have to overcome challenges such as staying out later than expected and running out of water or food.
Temperature, for me, was a beloved system in 7D2D and we were promised it's return. When I say the game has been dumbed down you can focus on the semantics of it or realize that systems have been simplified and sometimes not in a good way. I am not asking for Green Hell levels of immersion and for me it's not about immersion but the gameplay that develops due to it's proper implementation.
Now I won't say I am the smartest when it comes to finding solutions so if people have a way of adding temperature without making it trivial then I am all ears.
Temperature adds risk to reward by having players overcome harsh temperature and even in the mid game can challenge players as you might not have the specific gear or mods necessary to fully offset the difficulty of that biome so you may have to prepare and plan better and when you don't you have to overcome challenges such as staying out later than expected and running out of water or food.
Temperature, for me, was a beloved system in 7D2D and we were promised it's return. When I say the game has been dumbed down you can focus on the semantics of it or realize that systems have been simplified and sometimes not in a good way. I am not asking for Green Hell levels of immersion and for me it's not about immersion but the gameplay that develops due to it's proper implementation.
Now I won't say I am the smartest when it comes to finding solutions so if people have a way of adding temperature without making it trivial then I am all ears.
I'd argue the dew collectors are more tedious, just because looting them is annoying, imo. I'd love to be able to pipe them together, so they all drain to a single collection point where I could gather the water. Allow me to fill barrels with water for storage at home.
Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I'm on board with the canteen idea. Yes, it doesn't really make sense that there wouldn't be containers you could use for water in the world, but I'm kinda okay with that.
ZehMatt
Refugee
I also never quite understood this, in my opinion having to craft containers to hold liquids is NOT a bad thing, it doesn't have to be glass jars also, anything that can hold liquids will do like empty cans that you get from eating canned food, I've also seen people "but what about gasoline", how about adding a requirement to have a container to even get gasoline out of cars or barrels. It's one of those aspects that actually make games like Factorio fun, no resources are wasted, I know some people just want to kill zombies but to me the greatest aspect of this game always has been the survival part and in order to survive you will need craft things out of materials you can find in the open and re-use them as much as possible, I've never been a fan of this whole simplification ordeal.
EvilPolygons
Survivor
Even for someone like me who prefers sims, there comes a point at which abstraction makes sense. As you just pointed out, all sorts of things can be used to tote water around; cans, jugs, pails, bags, waterpacks, old soda bottles, and a hundred other kinds of containers that feature screw-on lids. Just walk into a grocery store and look at the thousands of non-liquid products that come in bottles that would work just fine for holding some water.
Abstraction makes sense in that case because of the shear number of things that can be used for the purpose.
Apollyon99
Refugee
Add spoiling mechanics to the game... like in a normal survival game. Spoiled things can be used for bio-fuel. Bio-fuel can be used to generate energy or for cars or as fuel for flame-thrower...
But oohhhh noooooooooo... this is toooooo complex, it´s tooo hard. I have no brain...
And why add a tech-tree that makes sense if we can just have RNG-BOOKS??
Roland
Community Moderator
Craft a sign that says "Water Crafting Station" and place it above one of your campfires.
EvilPolygons
Survivor
I love Icarus. Next to 7DTD it's probably my favorite survival game right now.
Grandpa Minion
Scavenger
simple question deserves a simple answer..
simply put people are lazy, they would rather have a dew collector do the work for them instead of worrying about what it took to make jars and the effort to fill them.