PC V3.0 Dead Hot Summer Dev Diary

This is what I meant with "on average". Looking at all mods together you will have an almost smooth progression.

Even if we find mods with totally random qualities our average quality level of mods will be rising slowly and almost regularily.
If we weren't talking about mods, but instead about weapons, would you feel the same? Let's say weapons were the same. You can only craft a T1 weapon. You could get a T3 Q6 weapon on day 1 and were still getting mostly T1 weapons (any quality) on day 100. But you are still slowly increasing just out of sheer numbers of looted containers. Is that a fun way to play the game? Is that what you'd call a good way to get weapons? It's easy to say it's no big deal because these are mods. But what makes it a "good" system for mods when not being one for weapons? Just because mods are more unnecessary? Why is having mods that can be really hard to find to begin with (some are common, some aren't) set to be completely random in quality so that it can be extremely unlikely to get a Q6 in a game even if you play to day 100 better than having actual progression tied to game stage or loot stage? Why is it okay to make it so you can buy Q6 mods really easily all game long but can't find them? Aren't we trying to cut back on the reliance on traders?

I am fine with having RNG be part of it. If you had a 1:1000 chance to get a Q6 on day 1 so you could get a really nice find on rare occasions, that's perfectly fine. But otherwise, it should normally be Q1 or maybe Q2 mods on day 1 for most games. And then the odds of better mods increases with your game stage or loot stage so that by end game you are finding mostly Q4-6 mods. It certainly isn't going to break a game if you can find the best mods regularly once you're already at the end game and can easily fight everything anyhow. Basically, just do with mods the same you do with weapons. You can get low level stuff any time, but you're much more likely to get the good stuff the further into the game you are rather than being entirely random.

Or just make use of the new workstation. What is wrong with combining mods to get better ones? Or, if that's not good enough, reading multiple copies of a schematic in order to craft better ones?
 
If we weren't talking about mods, but instead about weapons, would you feel the same?

No, because it is hardly comparable. We usually pick a class (Agi, Strength, ...) and have only one specific gun (and one melee weapon) we are interested in. Finding other guns of random qualities may help with situations where your main weapon would not be well suited (i.e. don't try to shoot a zombie in the far distance with your shotgun) or when you want to save ammo for your main weapon. But in effect you are only really interested in the progress of this specific gun. Naturally it would wildy scramble your progression if you could find a t3 Q6 of that specific gun on day 1.

Mods are in a different place. You need lots of them and they mostly have secondary effects (primary effect being the damage of the gun). Some of their buffs are a bit more important, but overall I am just happy to find a mod with a better quality to replace one I have in either my gun, my melee weapon or any of my secondary weapons or tools, no matter which mod it is.

Let's say weapons were the same. You can only craft a T1 weapon. You could get a T3 Q6 weapon on day 1 and were still getting mostly T1 weapons (any quality) on day 100. But you are still slowly increasing just out of sheer numbers of looted containers. Is that a fun way to play the game? Is that what you'd call a good way to get weapons? It's easy to say it's no big deal because these are mods. But what makes it a "good" system for mods when not being one for weapons? Just because mods are more unnecessary? Why is having mods that can be really hard to find to begin with (some are common, some aren't) set to be completely random in quality so that it can be extremely unlikely to get a Q6 in a game even if you play to day 100 better than having actual progression tied to game stage or loot stage?

I find them, in my game the system is working perfectly. I checked a few hours ago and in my assortment of weapons and tools I have about 3 of every quality level, including q6. And I have set loot probability to 85%.

I like randomness and the chance to have a lucky find. If you want reliable "boring" progression where you exactly know what you get in the next half hour, then you need to rely on the trader or use a mod that lets you craft everything as soon as you have a specific magazine level. Looting is such a central activity of the game, it is more important to make this fun than having the smoothest possible progression.

Why is it okay to make it so you can buy Q6 mods really easily all game long but can't find them? Aren't we trying to cut back on the reliance on traders?

I always said the trader needs to be nerfed and in 3.0 I nerfed the trader with the options. I still can find a good mod at the trader occassionaly but in my game the trader isn't the top source anymore, looting is.


I am fine with having RNG be part of it. If you had a 1:1000 chance to get a Q6 on day 1 so you could get a really nice find on rare occasions, that's perfectly fine. But otherwise, it should normally be Q1 or maybe Q2 mods on day 1 for most games. And then the odds of better mods increases with your game stage or loot stage so that by end game you are finding mostly Q4-6 mods. It certainly isn't going to break a game if you can find the best mods regularly once you're already at the end game and can easily fight everything anyhow. Basically, just do with mods the same you do with weapons. You can get low level stuff any time, but you're much more likely to get the good stuff the further into the game you are rather than being entirely random.

I probably would have agreed to this if I hadn't played 3.0, but I find the current system fun and it gives back some of the randomness that has been removed bit by bit in the last years by making the rest of the game more rigid in progression.


Or just make use of the new workstation. What is wrong with combining mods to get better ones? Or, if that's not good enough, reading multiple copies of a schematic in order to craft better ones?

I would agree to combining mods if they made it difficult enough: Only when you combine two mods of the same quality should you get one a level higher.
 
Or just make use of the new workstation. What is wrong with combining mods to get better ones? Or, if that's not good enough, reading multiple copies of a schematic in order to craft better ones?
I would agree to combining mods if they made it difficult enough: Only when you combine two mods of the same quality should you get one a level higher.
32 Q1 cooking pots coming in hot, fresh and ready to mingle from forges in your area
 
32 Q1 cooking pots coming in hot, fresh and ready to mingle from forges in your area
Yeah, that's "fun". Heh.

In any case, I have default loot abundance and I find a lot of mods and I'd say 70-80% are Q1-Q2. That's the problem with RNG. You *can* get lucky with RNG. You can also get garbage with it. With some things, that's okay. But things that are intended to have better levels are not what I consider good things to let RNG have free rein on.

What's wrong with tying it to game stage or loot stage? I haven't seen anyone answer that question. If there is concern about them being too common or something, then adjust the loot chances. You don't want them to be a "guarantee" Q6 at end game as Roland said? Adjust the loot chances. If it's at the level of a supercharger schematic drop, you could go a VERY long time without ever seeing the Q6 of a mod. That's one of the hardest-to-find schematics in the game if you aren't using traders.

Anyhow, it feels like I'm just spinning circles. I've made my opinion clear. What they do is up to them. I can always mod it to something useful.
 
Yeah, that's "fun". Heh.

In any case, I have default loot abundance and I find a lot of mods and I'd say 70-80% are Q1-Q2. That's the problem with RNG. You *can* get lucky with RNG. You can also get garbage with it. With some things, that's okay. But things that are intended to have better levels are not what I consider good things to let RNG have free rein on.

What's wrong with tying it to game stage or loot stage? I haven't seen anyone answer that question. If there is concern about them being too common or something, then adjust the loot chances. You don't want them to be a "guarantee" Q6 at end game as Roland said? Adjust the loot chances. If it's at the level of a supercharger schematic drop, you could go a VERY long time without ever seeing the Q6 of a mod. That's one of the hardest-to-find schematics in the game if you aren't using traders.

I told you: It would make another part of the game rigidly conforming to progression. A part where it seems to me to be not necessary AND also makes that part really random again. Which is somewhat missing after magazines made crafting so rigid. Which is good for main weapons, crafting stations and vehicles, no question about it. But the drawback is that there is no true randomness in the game anymore where you might feel this run being different than the previous run (as usual every system has pros and cons)
And I found it out empirically that it really is a fun part, at least for people who like randomness in their loot and don't have OCD. There is the fact that nobody needs every little item at quality 6. You don't even need your main weapons at quality 6 to succeed in this game despite other claims, but I am not trying to change this.

Maybe it is time for another option ;)

Anyhow, it feels like I'm just spinning circles. I've made my opinion clear. What they do is up to them. I can always mod it to something useful.

You are only spinning in circles if you don't read what I am writing or need to have the last word :D
 
The problem with this, as I see it, is that it's a double layer of RNG. First you have to get the mod that you want (often takes a long time) and then you have to get the quality that you want (presumably 6.) That...kinda sucks.

Especially for mods that greatly change the use rate of a tool. It sucked previously not getting an iron breaker (or schematic) until late in the game. Now, even finding the schematic is kinda disappointing, cause you're just going to get a crappy version of it. Now you have to pray to get one to drop, and pray you get a good one. And I want at least 2 (pick, wrench.)

But mostly, I hate it because it ■■■■ing makes me have to focus even more on looting. I don't want to spend all my time looting.
 
The problem with this, as I see it, is that it's a double layer of RNG. First you have to get the mod that you want (often takes a long time) and then you have to get the quality that you want (presumably 6.) That...kinda sucks.

Especially for mods that greatly change the use rate of a tool. It sucked previously not getting an iron breaker (or schematic) until late in the game. Now, even finding the schematic is kinda disappointing, cause you're just going to get a crappy version of it. Now you have to pray to get one to drop, and pray you get a good one. And I want at least 2 (pick, wrench.)

But mostly, I hate it because it ■■■■ing makes me have to focus even more on looting. I don't want to spend all my time looting.

I hate it because the Magnitude system finally gives us a way to have crafting and looting be relevant at the same time. If that's what you want then set the trader and loot to a lower quality cap, and crafting cap at quality 6. Suddenly loot is fun and crafting is useful. Age old problem SOLVED

Or, it would be solved. But with those settings all mods with quality tiers are garbage.

Age old problem ALIVE AND KICKING.
 
lol…this brings back fond memories. There will always be players who complain about RNG in games. We haven’t had these kinds of conversations for years because the game was changed to make it almost guaranteed that you would get everything to the max every single time you played. It didn’t used to be that way and it still isn’t for most things.

It’s funny that as soon as just one element of the game takes us back to that, the old complaints return. I get that not everyone is going to like a particular design but that doesn’t make it a bad design.

If there was an option to unhook items from the Lootstage progression and make it more pure RNG, I would enable that option. It makes for much more interesting diversity between runs.

Also, t1 mods are only garbage compared to what we used to have. Someone new to the game today would happily clip that T1 chain to their club and be happy with their slightly improved club. Only veterans would grouse about it being “garbage”. I’ve got T1 mods and T1 workstation upgrades and they still improve the things they modify and I’m still surviving vs what the game throws at me.
 
lol…this brings back fond memories. There will always be players who complain about RNG in games. We haven’t had these kinds of conversations for years because the game was changed to make it almost guaranteed that you would get everything to the max every single time you played. It didn’t used to be that way and it still isn’t for most things.

It’s funny that as soon as just one element of the game takes us back to that, the old complaints return. I get that not everyone is going to like a particular design but that doesn’t make it a bad design.

If there was an option to unhook items from the Lootstage progression and make it more pure RNG, I would enable that option. It makes for much more interesting diversity between runs.

Also, t1 mods are only garbage compared to what we used to have. Someone new to the game today would happily clip that T1 chain to their club and be happy with their slightly improved club. Only veterans would grouse about it being “garbage”. I’ve got T1 mods and T1 workstation upgrades and they still improve the things they modify and I’m still surviving vs what the game throws at me.
"I am on day 163 and i STILL havent found the calipers. This game sucks!" :cool:
 
lol…this brings back fond memories. There will always be players who complain about RNG in games. We haven’t had these kinds of conversations for years because the game was changed to make it almost guaranteed that you would get everything to the max every single time you played. It didn’t used to be that way and it still isn’t for most things.

It’s funny that as soon as just one element of the game takes us back to that, the old complaints return. I get that not everyone is going to like a particular design but that doesn’t make it a bad design.

If there was an option to unhook items from the Lootstage progression and make it more pure RNG, I would enable that option. It makes for much more interesting diversity between runs.

Also, t1 mods are only garbage compared to what we used to have. Someone new to the game today would happily clip that T1 chain to their club and be happy with their slightly improved club. Only veterans would grouse about it being “garbage”. I’ve got T1 mods and T1 workstation upgrades and they still improve the things they modify and I’m still surviving vs what the game throws at me.
I honestly preferred the A16.4 system of random loot. Like I said...somewhere on the forums in the last couple days, I only found the sniper rifle schematic around 3 times in >1000 hours in A16.4. But I still found sniper rifles, could still use/repair/upgrade them with the ones I found. And, other than the fact that low tier magazine mods seems to be pretty worthless, I don't really care about the weapon ones.

But not being able to 1-shot stone and 2-shot ores because you can't get a decent stone/iron mod would really, really suck. I don't know that this will be the case (like I said, I haven't played a lot of 3.0).

Regardless, it's just another case of "the only thing you're supposed to do in the game is loot" that's been being pushed into the game for several years now, which is antithetical to how I used to be able to play (and preferred.)

And no, Roland, don't come in here with your "just use the creative menu" crap. I used to earn everything I had, I just didn't have to spend every second of my play time looting to have the tools to do it.
 
Oh I remember those dang elusive calipers.
Finding a wrench or even the wrench schematic back in the day could be a pain too!
Ah memories 🥰
It was great, it gave a lot of reason to explore which is sorely lacking now, especially with the ability to reset POIs via the trader, and the sheer density of POIs/loot that now exists in cities.
 
I deal with machinery and businesses that require precision tolerances of their products and equipment, and while I didn't play the calipers era of 7DtD, I can confirm from real-world experience that calipers are an incredibly elusive tool never in their proper case and often smuggled to other departments in the building. Consider your pre-A17 immersion levels retroactively elevated.

If the calipers had quality levels, it would accurately reflect the levels of abject disrepair you might find them in, too!
 
I honestly preferred the A16.4 system of random loot. Like I said...somewhere on the forums in the last couple days, I only found the sniper rifle schematic around 3 times in >1000 hours in A16.4. But I still found sniper rifles, could still use/repair/upgrade them with the ones I found. And, other than the fact that low tier magazine mods seems to be pretty worthless, I don't really care about the weapon ones.

But not being able to 1-shot stone and 2-shot ores because you can't get a decent stone/iron mod would really, really suck. I don't know that this will be the case (like I said, I haven't played a lot of 3.0).

Regardless, it's just another case of "the only thing you're supposed to do in the game is loot" that's been being pushed into the game for several years now, which is antithetical to how I used to be able to play (and preferred.)

And no, Roland, don't come in here with your "just use the creative menu" crap. I used to earn everything I had, I just didn't have to spend every second of my play time looting to have the tools to do it.

But what would be wrong in saying: "ok, all the other mods are nice to have, I am happy if I find them, and not much worse if not. But I just need one specific mod at quality 6 or I will be miserable. I'll just get it from creative menue"?

Also, have you thought about simply increasing the player block damage in settings (I am assuming that exists, if not, ignore that point)

Higher quality mods drop left and right in the game, and the trader inventory exists for players who don't want to loot all that much. Throwing away the last vestige of true randomness in the game for just one single item you can't live without would be a fix with the sledgehammer.
 
Also, t1 mods are only garbage compared to what we used to have. Someone new to the game today would happily clip that T1 chain to their club and be happy with their slightly improved club.
If I'm absolutely honest, I don't really care about weapon mods at all now, like they could all be garbage and I don't know that I'd necessarily notice. The magnitude system eclipses them big time.

Some mods, though, suck enough that I absolutely won't use them at Q1. Fuel Saver stands out here. A Q1 fuel saver is not worth putting in any of the vehicles, between vehicle storage mods and limited mod space it just doesn't cut it. So a drop that used to be exciting (fuel saver schematic) is now vendor trash.


It’s funny that as soon as just one element of the game takes us back to that, the old complaints return. I get that not everyone is going to like a particular design but that doesn’t make it a bad design.

The main focus of this patch is Options. This should be a choice, so people who want RNG to rule their playthroughs can.


But not being able to 1-shot stone and 2-shot ores because you can't get a decent stone/iron mod would really, really suck. I don't know that this will be the case (like I said, I haven't played a lot of 3.0).

This is not a concern. With the magnitude system you are going to be 1-shotting all ores. Guaranteed.

Honestly, magnitude probably needs toning down a bit.
 
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