Story Mode Controversy --REDUX

meganoth said:
Don't underestimate a good artist.
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I'd like to agree, but I can't really come up with a great example of an "undeniably racist" painting. "Happy merchant" is a notorious example, but it's basically just an ugly dude. Any picture portraying an ugly dude is racist towards that race..? Same applies for depicting acts of violence, even with ugly stereotypes .. you need context outside the artwork to interpret something as obviously racist. But, it's not something I've given that much thought to.
 
zztong said:
Did that show generate any outrage? Not that I recall.
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Same with “Longmire”. There was criticism voiced by some activists but nothing that got traction with the general public. The Casino Indian is a stereotype but it isn’t viewed as egregious as other instances of racism. TFP could leave everything as it is and I doubt there would be any blowback. Most people wouldn’t even know that individuals can’t own a casino.

John Mulaney has a famous bit where he relates how he was writing for a show and wanted to use the word “midget”. An exec came to him and said that using the word “midget” was as bad as using the “n-word”. Mulaney’s response was that if the exec was willing to say “midget” but couldn’t say what the “n-word” stood for, then they clearly weren’t the same level of bad.

I’d say that the same concept applies here. The casino Indian stereotype isn’t flattering and may be considered rude by some or simply inaccurate by those who know the laws, but it doesn’t rise to the level of universal outrage and disgust as other examples of racism might.
 
theFlu said:
seems to be quite the fickle beast, there you say it didn't, here you assume it would..?
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If you look at when we were making risk projections, I assigned it a 5% chance. I think 5% clearly shows I assume it is unlikely to be an issue, but recognizes it is possible.

My take on the conversation has never been that there is outrage. I don't think the OP said there is outrage because the story isn't finished. I think the OP said there's the potential for outrage depending on how the story is presented when finished. Outrage over Yellowstone seemingly simmered at an inconsequential level. What happens with the 7D2D story depends on how is turns out and I think the OP has only been urging caution.
 
zztong said:
If you look at when we were making risk projections, I assigned it a 5% chance. I think 5% clearly shows I assume it is unlikely to be an issue, but recognizes it is possible.

My take on the conversation has never been that there is outrage. I don't think the OP said there is outrage because the story isn't finished. I think the OP said there's the potential for outrage depending on how the story is presented when finished. Outrage over Yellowstone seemingly simmered at an inconsequential level. What happens with the 7D2D story depends on how is turns out and I think the OP has only been urging caution.
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Pretty sure the OP specifically mentions the current portrayal of the character as an issue.

The Duke is represented as a "stock character" which is defined as:
A stock character is a recognizable, one-dimensional character type based on common social or literary stereotypes. They require no backstory and allow storytellers to quickly establish the setting or genre.
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So that seems to fit the Duke to a "T". I think Casinos and Native Americans are commonly associated but beyond that I don't think most people today have negative biases towards them as corrupt. Also it's important to acknowledge positive stereotypes such as Native Americans and environmentalism.
 
zztong said:
I think the OP said there's the potential for outrage depending on how the story is presented when finished.
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zztong said:
What happens with the 7D2D story depends on how is turns out and I think the OP has only been urging caution.
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Hmm; if I were a kinder man, I might buy that. I don't see the the arguments in the thread / OP as merely urging caution; it sounds more like "the racist stereotype absolutely must go".
- It seems quietly threatening an outcome that isn't going to happen, to pressure into changes. Somewhat like the difference between a protection racket and a security firm; just done for .. racist morals.
- It seems blind to any counterargument, like conditions where the stereotype is fine to have in. Whether willingly or not, I don't know.

It's .. weird. Can't say I trust it ;)

The risk-management math only pays out with .. plenty of repeats. 19 times out of 20, the management for 5% is just a pure loss. But adjusting writing to meet every potential PC issue leads to bad writing, and that's a threat in itself.
 
khzmusik said:
Now, I want to make something very, very clear. I do think the story is racist. But I do not think this means The Fun Pimps are racist, on either the conscious or subconscious level. And I absolutely do not think that they intended this story to be racist.
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khzmusik said:
Example: The "casino Indian" trope was hardly invented by TFP. It has been around for a couple decades now (at least). But it is an entirely false trope. Individual Native Americans cannot own casinos - only tribal governments can; profit from casinos must go to social welfare programs, not individuals; tribal casinos have never been hotbeds for organized crime; tribal casinos are required to make compacts with state governments (meaning any riches Native casinos make must also make the "White" state governments rich); and all of this is micromanaged by the U.S. federal government.

The "casino Indian" trope was not created by TFP, but it is a negative stereotype which is accepted by most people (who probably do not even know it is a stereotype), and it is used exactly as TFP is using it: to present Native Americans as corrupt, greedy, criminal, and antagonistic to White people.
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The story is a reflection of reality. I live 5 miles from an Indian Reservation that has a Casino. Why is the "Casino Indian" racist? Most of the people working there are natives. They run the show. Do you actually have any real world experience at Casinos on Indian reservations? Do you have ANY experience with Casinos in general? I lived in Reno for years. Casinos are ABSOLUTELY a hotbed of crime dude. If you think a business that has $100k in cash flowing through it daily also doesn't have nefarious things happening, you simply don't understand human behavior or motivations of those that seek out gambling incentives. Gamblers are risk takers. They get high on it. Who else loves engaging in risk that has the potential for big payoffs? Criminals? Who ran the majority of Vegas Casinos/Hotels in the early days? The mob. lol You seem incredibly naive and I perceive that as a lack of real world experience coloring your rose tinted glasses.
 
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warmer said:
Why is the "Casino Indian" racist?
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This is the where I posted links to sources:
khzmusik

Post in thread 'Story Mode Controversy --REDUX'

These are Web links to some of my sources. I list them here so you can read them, and decide for yourselves whether the things I said are accurate.

I removed the "https" and "://" parts of the URLs. If I did not do this, I don't think the post would make it through the forum's spam filter.

Tribal Gaming
These are sources about tribal casino myths and realities, how those myths support the "Casino Indian" trope, and how that trope is a negative racial stereotype.

Native sources
Articles about tribal casino myths and realities from Native American websites. These...

warmer said:
Gamblers are risk takers. They get high on it. Who else loves engaging in risk that has the potential for big payoffs? Criminals?
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The stereotype is not that gamblers at the casinos are criminals. The stereotype is that the Native Americans who "own" the casinos are criminals. Or make deals with organized crime, for example to launder money through the casino. (According to the stereotype, this is because the Native Americans are motivated by greed.)

warmer said:
Who ran the majority of Vegas Casinos/Hotels in the early days? The mob.
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Other than gambling, tribal casinos are nothing at all like casinos in Vegas or Reno. Organized crime has made no serious inroads into tribal casinos since the IGRA passed in 1988 (which is when tribal gaming became legal and tribes started opening casinos). At least, according to the DOJ.

Obviously there has been some financial crime committed by casino managers or tribal council members, but those are rare isolated incidents, and none of them resulted in the casino "owners" getting involved with the Mob.

It's all in the sources I posted, if you want to read through them.

And, no, I have no personal experience with tribal casinos, other than going to Foxwoods once with a friend of mine who is into blackjack. But, I prefer to learn things from reliable sources rather than my own personal experiences. My experiences are probably not typical.
 
meganoth said:
<snipped>
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As we've seen time and time again, the majority of people who make a stink out of such things weren't going to buy the product anyway. TFP could hypothetically get a few boycotts here and there, but nothing that should really affect their bottom line. All they would have to do is pay no mind to it and keep on trucking on.
 
khzmusik said:
Other than gambling, tribal casinos are nothing at all like casinos in Vegas or Reno. Organized crime has made no serious inroads into tribal casinos since the IGRA passed in 1988 (which is when tribal gaming became legal and tribes started opening casinos). At least, according to the DOJ.
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The Rincon convictions, where a tribal council member was convicted alongside mob figures, happened in 1993 and 1997, both after the IGRA was passed in 1988. Your revised timeline defense doesn't fully hold apparently. :sneaky:
 
Jost Amman said:
The Rincon convictions, where a tribal council member was convicted alongside mob figures, happened in 1993 and 1997, both after the IGRA was passed in 1988. Your revised timeline defense doesn't fully hold apparently. :sneaky:
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This again?

Both attempts were foiled before the casinos were even opened. (Edit: Actually, maybe one operated briefly, but the Class III gaming wasn't allowed because the Feds were already investigating. I can't remember which. I'll try to hunt down any sources. In any case, the Mob didn't make any money.) Nobody said the Mob doesn't try to infiltrate or take over tribal casinos. They just don't succeed.

You also got that information from the same DOJ source that called them "isolated incidents of organized crime attempting to infiltrate Indian gaming," right after they said "The Department has found no evidence of a systematic infiltration of Indian gaming by elements of organized crime."


Everyone here can read the DOJ testimony themselves.

Do you honestly think that source supports the "Casino Indian" trope?

EDIT: And remember the quote I was replying to? "Who ran the majority of Vegas Casinos/Hotels in the early days? The mob."

The incidents you mentioned are clearly not comparable to the early days of Vegas casinos. Not even close.
 
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Roland said:
Same with “Longmire”. There was criticism voiced by some activists but nothing that got traction with the general public. The Casino Indian is a stereotype but it isn’t viewed as egregious as other instances of racism. TFP could leave everything as it is and I doubt there would be any blowback. Most people wouldn’t even know that individuals can’t own a casino.
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I think in a world where we have areas called wasteland and zombies roaming around, I don't think laws and regulations would keep an individual from taking over a casino.
 
BFT2020 said:
I think in a world where we have areas called wasteland and zombies roaming around, I don't think laws and regulations would keep an individual from taking over a casino.
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Possibly, but the Duke didn't take over a casino. Before the apocalypse, he already "owned" a Casino. He was already the most powerful man in Navezgane. He was already "corrupt," "ambitious," and "rigging the game." At least if the game files are to be believed.

...On a different note. I'd like to get back to this, because I think it's the best question we could ask in this thread:
Kyoji said:
I am curious as to what would be the least invasive path, for those that find issue with the presentation of the Duke, to correct the problem they have with the portrayal of the Duke?
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I answered, and I gave the example of how I personally modified the game's story. But I want to make it clear: I created those story details because I wanted to keep everything other than the "Casino Indian" trope and the "whitewashing" of Whiteriver the same. Particularly the name "Cassadores" and the association of Noah with Whiteriver, which was why I made the Duke Portuguese and Noah an Apache.

But TFP are under no obligation to keep these things the same. For instance, if they want Noah to still be a White person, just have him be the leader of some other town in Arizona, one that is not the seat of government for an Apache tribe. Like Show Low, or Morenci, or something.

If they want the Duke to be Native American, and they still want him to be a powerful villain, it would be better to just do away with the casino angle, and make him a corrupt tribal police chief, or a shady politician (tribal council member), or something like that.

If they want the Duke to be Native American and associated with a casino, then avoid the "Casino Indian" trope. Don't make him motivated by greed, rich from pocketing casino profits, and associated with crime.

He could still be an antagonist, but make his motivations different. For example, he could be a hard-■■■ from his years fighting against organized crime trying to infiltrate the casino, and hates anyone who doesn't pay their due (like Noah) because he spent so long catching people trying to cheat at the card tables.

There are a whole lot of ways to avoid the racial issues. TFP should just pick one.
 
Here comes the comfy white man who bought into the whole white guilt thing a little too much.

Though, hold on...that might not be the case because I believe kHz did say that he's not really concerned about the racism in and of itself, but more so how it might make him look for liking the game. Hehehe. However I might be wrong on that and missed something because I'm not going to sift through those Tolstoy length posts.

Here's the deal...let me put this puppy to sleep...is it racist? Probably. Is it offensive? I don't know. I'm not Native American. Maybe kHz should take this to r/nativeamerican and see what they think.

Now, if TFP was smart they'd lean into this. A wise man once said "controversy = cash". I say they should keep the Native American trope, then add some more racial stereotypes. They already got the sexism stereotype with Jen being a sexualized thirsty ■■■■■. And what about Noah? They say he's cheap. Do we know his last name? Do you know the origin of the name "Noah"? And what about zombies of color? (and I'm not talking about radiated, charged and infernals). Are there no black people in Arizona? I mean, Zombie Steve might be Asian but I don't know. This game already got a lot of cultural problems, so there isn't that much more work to do.

Before they move forward they gotta set up a fall guy in the company so when the backlash hits they can say, "Sorry, we were ignorant to the offensive nature of this content. We were under the impression that everything was copacetic. Effective immediately, Faatal has been fired and we are moving forward with cleaning up the game. This has been unfortunate but a learning experience nonetheless".

There ya go. That's about 30k to 40k more sales right there.
 
Double G said:
Are there no black people in Arizona? I mean, Zombie Steve might be Asian
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Roland confirmed Steve is Asian, and zombie boe is black

I do wish we had more races like black (male, female, fat, solder, cop etc) or even like what they did in the old days like alpha 8. All the zombies were black, then they had a greenish and Grey

Now they keep their skin tones of who they where.

I think from design standpoint I think it would be better to make zombies ether a set color and add lore reasons like blackened or Grey skin.
 
Double G said:
There ya go. That's about 30k to 40k more sales right there.
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Hmm.. I can't recall a case where capitulating to any moral outrage would've actually lead to increased sales... got a good clear example for me to look at? :)
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Adam the Waster said:
I think from design standpoint I think it would be better to make zombies ether a set color and add lore reasons like blackened or Grey skin.
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Gotta be careful with that too, nowadays; orcs in Rings of Power were given "families" to show that they're not eevul because someone linked their skin color to african americans ... can't just go making the "bad things" dark anymore, or some such.
 
khzmusik said:
This again?

Both attempts were foiled before the casinos were even opened. (Edit: Actually, maybe one operated briefly, but the Class III gaming wasn't allowed because the Feds were already investigating. I can't remember which. I'll try to hunt down any sources. In any case, the Mob didn't make any money.) Nobody said the Mob doesn't try to infiltrate or take over tribal casinos. They just don't succeed.

You also got that information from the same DOJ source that called them "isolated incidents of organized crime attempting to infiltrate Indian gaming," right after they said "The Department has found no evidence of a systematic infiltration of Indian gaming by elements of organized crime."


Everyone here can read the DOJ testimony themselves.

Do you honestly think that source supports the "Casino Indian" trope?

EDIT: And remember the quote I was replying to? "Who ran the majority of Vegas Casinos/Hotels in the early days? The mob."

The incidents you mentioned are clearly not comparable to the early days of Vegas casinos. Not even close.
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I was just replying to what you said in the part I quoted.
Did I struck a nerve? Why did you go rampant again on all that stuff?

If you don't consider those infiltrations serious I don't know what to say... I guess whenever a native American collaborates with the Mob it's ok, as long as he's not a casino owner.

Every time someone makes you notice some incoherencies in your theory you move the goal post and narrow the scope.

khzmusik said:
Other than gambling, tribal casinos are nothing at all like casinos in Vegas or Reno. Organized crime has made no serious inroads into tribal casinos since the IGRA passed in 1988 (which is when tribal gaming became legal and tribes started opening casinos). At least, according to the DOJ.
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