The return of old POIs?

[Michal.ak]

Funny you should mention breakable floor and ceiling tiles, etc. earlier. I can't stand that about the old POIs and have been avoiding them like the plague. It's like whoever was designing them at the time couldn't think of any other way to spring zombies on you than have them either falling directly atop your head or dropping/locking you in a room with them via breakable floor tiles. At least they're largely hidden in the open now and pretty well to boot -- behind boxes and doors and construction materials, etc. Not sure when the pre-apocalyptic game world started shipping zombies in crates, but there's a decent variety of zombie placement now by comparison, imo. That's why I think it would be easier just to spread out that loot. Despite the linear flow of the planned routes through, players can still go through them any way they like.

Maybe it would be easier to spread the loot but I highly doubt they would go back on all the work they did on the current POIs and with its dungeon style, it would still be quite tricky to balance it because why should you go all the way to the end if you can get half the loot and dip and there would be no clear incentive to go all the way to the end if the loot is spread apart.

One main reason why I think it wouldnt work is because why would they go back through hundreds of POIs, spread the loot around when they could be working on just revamping older POIs all together.

Hence I still think it would be more practical to get older POIs, revamp them a little to fit the current game like zombie spawns and loot placement around it and make it a map generation option along side with the current POI option.

 

[Kyoji]

Maybe it would be easier to spread the loot but I highly doubt they would go back on all the work they did on the current POIs and with its dungeon style, it would still be quite tricky to balance it because why should you go all the way to the end if you can get half the loot and dip and there would be no clear incentive to go all the way to the end if the loot is spread apart.

One main reason why I think it wouldnt work is because why would they go back through hundreds of POIs, spread the loot around when they could be working on just revamping older POIs all together.

Hence I still think it would be more practical to get older POIs, revamp them a little to fit the current game like zombie spawns and loot placement around it and make it a map generation option along side with the current POI option.

Why would they revamp old POIs when they could just not do that? I feel like it would be far easier to move the loot around than redesign the assets inside to make the POIs less linear.

I disagree about the not so many people interacting with non dungeon style POIs if all of them were like that and toggable on/off, i genuinely feel like it would be a great addition, it would probably be a whole update worth of content but I think it would be worth it.

I don't think it would be worth it and don't think it's even doable. Every new POI would need reworked to remove door locks and barricades that funnel you in a straight line and you would still need to develop every new POI with two separate game concepts in mind. It's not practical as far as I can see it.

As I said, being able to toggle between rpg and survival is what everyone needs, especially the people who played this game since the early alphas who would prefer that type of gameplay.

Not necessarily true. I have played for quite a long time. I remember traveling across the map to find a single broken down house. It wasn't all that fun. Sure some aspects of A16 I miss such as the wasteland city and schematics, but the old POI structure back then was terrible, easy and boring. It was only interesting because you had to search and explore the map to find POIs rather than them all being in a city. Changing the POI layout doesn't bring back any old alpha nostalgia.


I can appreciate the concept and I think the quest/trader spam is one of the primary culprits behind the game changing from previous alphas. That being said I think a better solution is to supplement the game with various things. Instead of changing POIs into two separate types I think it would be easier to make remnant POIs better. If remnant POIs offered much better loot and had proper zombie spawns then they could act as a replacement for the non-linear gameplay you seek. Likewise if they offered more reasons to explore I think that would also bring back some of the old alpha nostalgia.

 

[Michal.ak]

Why would they revamp old POIs when they could just not do that? I feel like it would be far easier to move the loot around than redesign the assets inside to make the POIs less linear.

I don't think it would be worth it and don't think it's even doable. Every new POI would need reworked to remove door locks and barricades that funnel you in a straight line and you would still need to develop every new POI with two separate game concepts in mind. It's not practical as far as I can see it.

Not necessarily true. I have played for quite a long time. I remember traveling across the map to find a single broken down house. It wasn't all that fun. Sure some aspects of A16 I miss such as the wasteland city and schematics, but the old POI structure back then was terrible, easy and boring. It was only interesting because you had to search and explore the map to find POIs rather than them all being in a city. Changing the POI layout doesn't bring back any old alpha nostalgia.


I can appreciate the concept and I think the quest/trader spam is one of the primary culprits behind the game changing from previous alphas. That being said I think a better solution is to supplement the game with various things. Instead of changing POIs into two separate types I think it would be easier to make remnant POIs better. If remnant POIs offered much better loot and had proper zombie spawns then they could act as a replacement for the non-linear gameplay you seek. Likewise if they offered more reasons to explore I think that would also bring back some of the old alpha nostalgia.

But my question is, do you really think they will go back and change all the current POIs to what youre saying? The thing is, they could have done that years and years ago when the game was greatly hated because of the changes but they didnt because of who knows why. Maybe ego, maybe laziness but knowing this, dont you think it would be more of a chance that they would just use the old POIs as a blueprint and remake them, adding them as a toggable option or do you think they will suddenly now go back and do the changes you have said.

I made this post because I feel like the fun pimps are finding a middle ground between us the fans and themselves. Their hard work doesnt go to waste and we get to choose how we want to play. Look at my suggestion like with jars. They couldve just added it back in but no, they gave us an option to let us choose how we want to play. So I still strongly believe that we have a better chance of them creating my suggestion as a toggable feature rather than changing the current POIs

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

two separate game concepts in mind

That's what it boils down to: creating (or recreating) two different games for two different audiences, which just isn't going to happen when the game is nearly finished. To produce what they wanted to do as two separate games -- a survival sandbox and a RPG -- is a decision that would have to have been made long ago. It's a mixture of the two and that will never satisfy both groups.

I'll maintain to my dying day that players can play the POIs any way they like. They don't have to follow that preset, linear route through them no matter how much some protest they do. The trader quests can be ignored or the traders removed altogether (on PC) and I think it's been mentioned that trader options in settings are coming soon.

It's the nitty gritty survival mechanics (e.g. those multitudinous extra steps you see in survival sandboxes) the survival game players miss and RPG players don't seem to mind are missing in favor of abstractions. Neither groups' concerns are unwarranted, but I very much doubt there's much that can be done about the direction it's gone at this point other than provide toggles for trader options/jobs and all parties involved (TFP, console manufacturers, etc.) provide mod support on both console and PC, console support seeming highly unlikely.

 

[Krunch]

I think it would be more like 2 years plus, I don't think you get any progress on bandit POIs during that time or any other new POIs. But that's just my estimate.

It's close to remaking those POIs and that team goes after high quality, so it's not going to be like if I hacked on those POIs in a rushed effort. They've got around 1,000 POIs, though not all of them would have to be changed. For instance, some of the "filler" (tier 0) POIs are already dungeon-less.

I carry a fair amount of retired Vanilla in PEP still as well, and I wouldn't have to dig too far back for more. Theres also plenty of new non dungeon POIs like the Filler ZZTong mentioned, you could easily swap out all of the dungeons and still not be lacking if you mixed a few of the older sets back in.

 

[Michal.ak]

That's what it boils down to: creating (or recreating) two different games for two different audiences, which just isn't going to happen when the game is nearly finished. To produce what they wanted to do as two separate games -- a survival sandbox and a RPG -- is a decision that would have to have been made long ago. It's a mixture of the two and that will never satisfy both groups.

I'll maintain to my dying day that players can play the POIs any way they like. They don't have to follow that preset, linear route through them no matter how much some protest they do. The trader quests can be ignored or the traders removed altogether (on PC) and I think it's been mentioned that trader options in settings are coming soon.

It's the nitty gritty survival mechanics (e.g. those multitudinous extra steps you see in survival sandboxes) the survival game players miss and RPG players don't seem to mind are missing in favor of abstractions. Neither groups' concerns are unwarranted, but I very much doubt there's much that can be done about the direction it's gone at this point other than provide toggles for trader options/jobs and all parties involved (TFP, console manufacturers, etc.) provide mod support on both console and PC, console support seeming highly unlikely.

But thats the thing, I really don't see it as 2 different games, theyre already going to release much more sandbox options, apparently 100+ so would it be 2 different types of games then? Its just POIs, it would just be categorised between linear and non linear. Im not saying it would be easy or quick to do. But im saying it would literally just be new POIs that wont have that dungeon style. This way the fun pimps dont have to go back on their work *which they would never do as proven years ago and using my jars example*

Just because the gameplay is different its not 2 different games, as you said, you can turn off traders and go in however you want, even now with its dungeon style, does that also make it 2 different games?

Its just how the player chooses to play it and having that option there to generate one, the other or even both would create even more ways to play the game. The way you play defines what type of game it is, that wouldnt be any different if they added non dungeon style POIs as an option, it would just make the game that much better for the players that want to play it like a survival game.

 

[Riamus]

Too many posts to see if this has been mentioned. If so, ignore this.

A POI requires a lot of work to create. It isn't something that can be done in a short time. Even a small tier 1 POI takes time, especially if you want it to be up to TFP's standards and not just a "child's drawing" version of a POI (nothing but floors and walls and ceilings without any effort put into making it look decent. And even turning an existing dungeon style POI into an open POI isn't something you can just do. It requires a lot of time and effort to make it happen. And that's for just one POI. They would have to do that to many POI for some kind of game option to be useful. So it just isn't likely to ever happen.

Now, that doesn't mean they can't create new POI that are open format or even update old POI that aren't in the game anymore. But both of those things do take time. A LOT changed with v1.0 in regards to POIs, so even just turning an old POI into one that works in 2.6 without making any other changes isn't a quick thing to do. It can be done, and maybe they'll do it. But it's something that will take work to accomplish. You can see some of them that have been brought back in various POI packs, like ZZTong's. But if TFP brought them back, they'd update them internally and wouldn't just use what a mod author made.

In the end, TFP's POI designers will choose whether to create brand new POI or spend time changing or updating old POI. It can be a far better option to just create new POI. That way you have new content rather than just changing existing content. That tends to be a better option.

In any case, there doesn't need to be a game option to switch between dungeon or non-dungeon POI. There will never be (in vanilla) enough non-dungeon POI created to make it possible to completely disable dungeon POI without seeing constant repetition. Even now, we see a lot of repetition and there are over 1000 POI. They'll never make that many non-dungeon POI to make it possible to disable dungeon POI. Instead, they can (if they choose) make non-dungeon POI that can be placed in any map and then you have the ability to do that kind of POI even if most POI are what we have now.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Likewise if they offered more reasons to explore I think that would also bring back some of the old alpha nostalgia.

Bring back the calipers!

 

[Michal.ak]

Too many posts to see if this has been mentioned. If so, ignore this.

A POI requires a lot of work to create. It isn't something that can be done in a short time. Even a small tier 1 POI takes time, especially if you want it to be up to TFP's standards and not just a "child's drawing" version of a POI (nothing but floors and walls and ceilings without any effort put into making it look decent. And even turning an existing dungeon style POI into an open POI isn't something you can just do. It requires a lot of time and effort to make it happen. And that's for just one POI. They would have to do that to many POI for some kind of game option to be useful. So it just isn't likely to ever happen.

Now, that doesn't mean they can't create new POI that are open format or even update old POI that aren't in the game anymore. But both of those things do take time. A LOT changed with v1.0 in regards to POIs, so even just turning an old POI into one that works in 2.6 without making any other changes isn't a quick thing to do. It can be done, and maybe they'll do it. But it's something that will take work to accomplish. You can see some of them that have been brought back in various POI packs, like ZZTong's. But if TFP brought them back, they'd update them internally and wouldn't just use what a mod author made.

In the end, TFP's POI designers will choose whether to create brand new POI or spend time changing or updating old POI. It can be a far better option to just create new POI. That way you have new content rather than just changing existing content. That tends to be a better option.

In any case, there doesn't need to be a game option to switch between dungeon or non-dungeon POI. There will never be (in vanilla) enough non-dungeon POI created to make it possible to completely disable dungeon POI without seeing constant repetition. Even now, we see a lot of repetition and there are over 1000 POI. They'll never make that many non-dungeon POI to make it possible to disable dungeon POI. Instead, they can (if they choose) make non-dungeon POI that can be placed in any map and then you have the ability to do that kind of POI even if most POI are what we have now.

Of course, it would be something that they would need to implement every update. But I think even if they added the old POIs and revamped them to fit the current game like spreading loot around and so on, that it would be enough.

And about the toggable option, yeah thats true, alot of repetition would take place but I really and truly believe that players that wanted to play that type of way wouldn't mind. And even if they did feel repetitive, they could always just enable dungeon style POIs in their world too.

The reason I made this post is because the fun pimps are finding a middle ground and instead of going back on their hard work, they are making everything toggable which is perfect for everyone involved.

If they used the old POIs as blueprints and just revamped them with loot and zombie spawns, I genuinely think it would be so positively taken that it could motivate the fun pimps to keep making older style POIs for random map generation as a toggle feature