What's the point of the apiary?

Better food should give advantages over stuff like a raw egg or shamwich. When I say better I don’t mean make them more filling. We should get an energy rush, or maybe temporarily jump higher or run faster. Similar to what mega crush does but make it unique for each high quality food type.
 
I used to think food value was important. I'd always make the best food possible. Now I realize it doesn't matter. Obviously I won't just keep making the lowest food items, but mid-level food like stews provide enough food to keep you going for a long time. In my current game, I haven't even bothered with stews and just keep making steak and potatoes and they are enough. If you eat once per day or twice per day, it really doesn't change anything. You can carry 10 in a stack, so unless you're going to be gone from your base for a really long time, you're not going to run out. Whether you want to deal with a farm or not is more of the issue, I think. Personally, I don't mind it. It takes practically no time to harvest and plant crops since I don't make a 100 plot farm like some people. Mine is usually 10 or less and works fine for two people.

As far as being a waste, unless you have enough honey to keep making food or drink for everyone in your party without constantly being short, then you're wasting honey, imo. If you make enough apiaries to keep overstocked on honey enough to do so, then that's obviously not a problem. I haven't played long enough with apiaries to know how many you need to handle different sized groups yet. But to me, if you're eating or drinking stuff made with honey when you're not infected, it's a waste. If you're overloaded with honey, then it obviously doesn't matter if you waste it. I'll still probably never make any honey food or drink because I see no value in it regardless of the amount of honey I have.

As I said, in my solo game it looks like maybe even only 1 but surely 2 apiaries will suffice to keep me fed. Once I have that, why should I make lesser food that has more ingredients I would need to farm? You can't tell me that half the farm plots to service isn't an advantage however slight.

Maybe the difference between food that gives you 100 or 140 food is marginal, but if someone runs around with food that has a value of 60 or less then the need to eat twice also means double the animation you have to endure (and maybe double the stink time?). In fact there are only advantages however small to high value food when it is cheap to make and no disadvantages.

On one hand you tell madmole that you don't really need honey from the apiaries in endgame because of your better armor (which is correct). Quote: "And by then, I find enough honey even without an apiary"
On the other hand you still place a value on honey as if it was a very restricted and scarce. But if you find enough honey without an apiary anyway, honey from the apiary would just be surplus, right? But why would you think surplus needs to be saved instead of wasted?

Do you still stop at tree stumps while driving through the country? I really hate that as I have to stop, hit the treestump multiple times, go back to the bike which likely moved on a little and accelerate again. And I have to do that 5 times on average for a single honey. Have an apiary for that and never need to stop.
 
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As I said, in my solo game it looks like maybe even only 1 but surely 2 apiaries will suffice to keep me fed. Once I have that, why should I make lesser food that has more ingredients I would need to farm? You can't tell me that half the farm plots to service isn't an advantage however slight.

Maybe the difference between food that gives you 100 or 140 food is marginal, but if someone runs around with food that has a value of 60 or less then the need to eat twice also means double the animation you have to endure (and maybe double the stink time?). In fact there are only advantages however small to high value food when it is cheap to make and no disadvantages.

On one hand you tell madmole that you don't really need honey from the apiaries in endgame because of your better armor (which is correct). Quote: "And by then, I find enough honey even without an apiary"
On the other hand you still place a value on honey as if it was a very restricted and scarce. But if you find enough honey without an apiary anyway, honey from the apiary would just be surplus, right? But why would you think surplus needs to be saved instead of wasted?

Do you still stop at tree stumps while driving through the country? I really hate that as I have to stop, hit the treestump multiple times, go back to the bike which likely moved on a little and accelerate again. And I have to do that 5 times on average for a single honey. Have an apiary for that and never need to stop.
I think I mentioned my farms are rarely over 10 plots for two players, and usually around 6. Those get filled with potatoes with mushrooms on the sides. On the rare times that I need corn, I'll add that for a round or two. That makes more than enough food for 2 players. So how is it really saving me much of anything in time farming? A few seconds here and there isn't exactly meaningful. And don't forget that if you're collecting honey, that's no different from harvesting food from an equal number of plots. So even if I saved enough food to cut my plots by 2 but I had 2 apiaries, I'm not really saving anything. The same goes for eating once or twice in a day (or whatever the timing works out to). It's such a minor amount of time to animate eating that it doesn't matter.

It isn't that I place a value on honey. It's that I don't place a value on honey food/drink. I see no reason to bother with it. It really doesn't offer me anything. If you like it, then by all means, go ahead and make it. But I don't see any reason to do so myself, which is what I said. I would prefer that if they want to make honey worth something, that they'd use it in some other way instead of, or at least in addition to, food and drink. Something that would really be worth using it for.

And in any case, my biggest point with it was that it should be unlocked earlier. You don't need honey (or honey food/drink) in the late game because you can even more easily make antibiotics and your armor greatly reduces infections. In fact, the preacher armor entirely removes the chance of getting infections at the quality 6 set. So there's very little value in honey to begin with in the late game. And food and drink don't really make it more valuable. Even if you just like a few less resources to make food and you like not eating twice a day or whatever, it just really isn't worth much. If they want the apiaries to have value, then honey needs value. Honey does have value in the early game, so make apiaries unlocked in the early game. You could also make some other use of honey that is valuable for late game (again, food/drink really aren't anything other than a slight convenience), but I still think they should unlock in the early game.

As far as stumps go, after early game, it's extremely rare for me to break a stump. Yes, apiaries are good for not having to deal with stumps. That is why they should be unlocked in the early game when you actually need to get the honey. By mid game, I have enough honey even without an apiary to deal with the limited infections I get. And it isn't much beyond that when I am crafting antibiotics and honey becomes something I don't have any need to find. I'll use it if I happen to have it, but otherwise I'll just use antibiotics.
 
I think I mentioned my farms are rarely over 10 plots for two players, and usually around 6. Those get filled with potatoes with mushrooms on the sides. On the rare times that I need corn, I'll add that for a round or two. That makes more than enough food for 2 players. So how is it really saving me much of anything in time farming? A few seconds here and there isn't exactly meaningful. And don't forget that if you're collecting honey, that's no different from harvesting food from an equal number of plots.

Small correction: In an fully equipped apiary I get 6 honey with just a click of the mouse and "R". That is far less than collecting from 6 farm plots and especially reseeding them which annoyingly needs me to free a slot on the belt.

So even if I saved enough food to cut my plots by 2 but I had 2 apiaries, I'm not really saving anything. The same goes for eating once or twice in a day (or whatever the timing works out to). It's such a minor amount of time to animate eating that it doesn't matter.

I currently have 20 farmplots in my solo game which probably is far too much if I only were crafting for food. 2 apiaries are with the same safety margin where I can afford to farm just when it is convenient, not always when the farm is ready. If you can feed 2 players with 6 plots I would assume you would get by easily with only 1 apiary, but anyway, it doesn't matter. If a handful of small convenience improvements is not enough in sum to convince you to use an apiary then that is totally fine.

It isn't that I place a value on honey. It's that I don't place a value on honey food/drink. I see no reason to bother with it. It really doesn't offer me anything. If you like it, then by all means, go ahead and make it. But I don't see any reason to do so myself, which is what I said. I would prefer that if they want to make honey worth something, that they'd use it in some other way instead of, or at least in addition to, food and drink. Something that would really be worth using it for.

And in any case, my biggest point with it was that it should be unlocked earlier. You don't need honey (or honey food/drink) in the late game because you can even more easily make antibiotics and your armor greatly reduces infections. In fact, the preacher armor entirely removes the chance of getting infections at the quality 6 set. So there's very little value in honey to begin with in the late game. And food and drink don't really make it more valuable. Even if you just like a few less resources to make food and you like not eating twice a day or whatever, it just really isn't worth much. If they want the apiaries to have value, then honey needs value. Honey does have value in the early game, so make apiaries unlocked in the early game. You could also make some other use of honey that is valuable for late game (again, food/drink really aren't anything other than a slight convenience), but I still think they should unlock in the early game.

As far as stumps go, after early game, it's extremely rare for me to break a stump. Yes, apiaries are good for not having to deal with stumps. That is why they should be unlocked in the early game when you actually need to get the honey. By mid game, I have enough honey even without an apiary to deal with the limited infections I get. And it isn't much beyond that when I am crafting antibiotics and honey becomes something I don't have any need to find. I'll use it if I happen to have it, but otherwise I'll just use antibiotics.

I only replied because you sounded like you were speaking generally about honey in that posting. If you were only speaking for your own playstyle then my reply can be ignored.
 
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Small correction: In an fully equipped apiary I get 6 honey with just a click of the mouse and "R". That is far less than collecting from 6 farm plots and especially reseeding them which annoyingly needs me to free a slot on the belt.
Freeing a space on the toolbelt is definitely annoying, though lately I always have a free space because I stopped carrying around an item I used to keep there since I rarely ever even used it. But yes, reseeding is a pain and it would be nice to not have to do that, at least at max LotL. You still need mushrooms, so you're still going to need some planting and reseeding. At most, it would mean I don't do the potatoes. A small reduction in time, but if I'm already harvesting and seeding, spending another 30 seconds or whatever (probably less) doesn't really matter. I'm not one of those players who absolutely loves farming on here. I do it because I need to. But I also don't hate it. So that small savings of time really doesn't matter to me. It also requires cornmeal, which is something I never gather. I'll get it when it is in a loot container, but that isn't usually very much over the course of a game. So I'd then have to start gathering it from bags that I never bother with, which adds time that way. In the end, maybe you save a little time and maybe you don't. If you save even 5 minutes over the course of a game, is that significant? I don't think so. But like I said, if people want to make it, there's nothing wrong with it. I just probably never will.
 
The point is to have a consistent source of honey. RNG is RNG, a player may get honey every other stump, or they may get honey every 10 stumps.
I went 21 stumps in a row once without honey. I thought the game was bugged because that seemed absurd until it dropped. Having something that makes it while I am focused on other things is a win. I think the biggest issue is when we access it. By day 7 I typically have 4-5 honey from loot/stumps and a couple herbal or blue anti biotics. After that I am usually set for a LONG TIME. I ALWAYS have 1 honey on me. its a default item I bring so I am never over 5% by the time I can take it.
 
The apiary is nice. I am concerned it's opened the door for all manner of other contraptions for hunter-gatherers -- chicken coops, wild animal traps and, of course, all manner of producers like those you see in MMOs. Every implementation of things like this moves the game away from its roots, imo.

This not a MMO. Thank God. It's following (or did) the old school method of LAN party/user-adminstered servers, multiplayer conventions of old, like Jedi Outcast, a form of which I think modern games should be implementing. I'm sure everyone's heard of the "Stop Killing Games" movement. MMOs are eventually taken offline when a game like this could live on forever if it just sticks to those conventions. If I agree with John Carmack about anything, it's his proposed (not completely thought through) solution to that problem.
 
... MMOs are eventually taken offline...

If they are good enough and adapt, they dont.


Those are the few off the top of my head becuase I have played them. There are more recent ones, but those there are in the 20yr old realm.
 
I'm not one of those players who absolutely loves farming on here.
I am, so on the other end of the spectrum, players like me, we do like to farm, craft, produce, and build, between zombie slaughters, that is. I have built a multi story farm building, 12 plots by 35 plots, per level, three or more levels high.

Once I can get v2.5 resized HUD, I will probably have 6-12 apiary, same as the 16+ Dew Collectors.

Just saying, playstyles vary (greatly), and what seems like a waste to one player, is needed by another's playstyle/perspective.

Happy new year!
 
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The apiary is nice. I am concerned it's opened the door for all manner of other contraptions for hunter-gatherers -- chicken coops, wild animal traps and, of course, all manner of producers like those you see in MMOs. Every implementation of things like this moves the game away from its roots, imo.

This not a MMO. Thank God. It's following (or did) the old school method of LAN party/user-adminstered servers, multiplayer conventions of old, like Jedi Outcast, a form of which I think modern games should be implementing. I'm sure everyone's heard of the "Stop Killing Games" movement. MMOs are eventually taken offline when a game like this could live on forever if it just sticks to those conventions. If I agree with John Carmack about anything, it's his proposed (not completely thought through) solution to that problem.
Well, we're already getting a chicken coop.
 
The apiary is nice. I am concerned it's opened the door for all manner of other contraptions for hunter-gatherers -- chicken coops, wild animal traps and, of course, all manner of producers like those you see in MMOs. Every implementation of things like this moves the game away from its roots, imo.
I can understand what you mean. I play 95% solo when I play, so anything that let's me put a portion of my daily duties on auto pilot so I can focus on what I "Want" to do vs. what I "have" to do is a win. The good thing here is I don't expect them to reduce honey drop rates or nerf chickens so this is purely optional and more for immersion than a true pillar of gameplay.
 
Yeah, I don't get infected much in late-stage, either. And if I do, I usually have plenty of honey and antibiotics from looting and stumps. And then, if I need something to cure infection and I have run out, it is quicker to make antibiotics than wait for the bees to do their job.

I would definitely make it possible to craft the apiary earlier and base it on only one or two wax (or rather, queen bees). That gives players the option to chop stumps or keep bees, in early stage when this can be critical for survival.

Agree with this. In my current playthrough (default loot and xp settings) i crafted the apiary around day 16/17 iirc and by that point i already had nearly 2 full stacks of honey plus a few each of herbal and regular antibiotics through looting. Most of my infections happen early game, by the time i can craft this apiary i'm genuinely not going to need it. By the time i'm doing tier 4/5/6 jobs i'm generally finding honey and antibiotics in loot on a daily basis so infection ceases to be an issue.

Maybe allow crafting the apiary itself early but keeping the 3 attachments locked at their current higher tiers.
 
I just noticed that vitamins have a 100% chance to resist disease, including infections. And for 12 minutes. And I'm usually swimming in vitamins by mid game. That kinda diminishes the need for honey too. Please don't nerf that! 💊
 
I can understand what you mean. I play 95% solo when I play, so anything that let's me put a portion of my daily duties on auto pilot so I can focus on what I "Want" to do vs. what I "have" to do is a win. The good thing here is I don't expect them to reduce honey drop rates or nerf chickens so this is purely optional and more for immersion than a true pillar of gameplay.
I was thinking that many consider putting harvesting, hunting, producing, etc. on auto pilot shortcuts that bypass survival aspects of gameplay. Every addition of a contraption to things players formerly had to do for themselves is a step away. And they're already pretty upset at how far the game has wandered away from its roots as a sandbox survival game.

I don't care either way. I think mods like OCB Stop Fuel Waste are great for those who prefer convenience and quality of life features over survival features. But, of course, there's the problem of console players having no access to quality of life mods.

Edit: We do see survival games incorporating things like rain collectors, apiaries and chicken coops as a form of progression, but "survivalists" don't see dew collectors as a form of progression. They'd much prefer to get their water from natural sources. ;)
 
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I am, so on the other end of the spectrum, players like me, we do like to farm, craft, produce, and build, between zombie slaughters, that is. I have built a multi story farm building, 12 plots by 35 plots, per level, three or more levels high.

Once I can get v2.5 resized HUD, I will probably have 6-12 apiary, same as the 16+ Dew Collectors.

Just saying, playstyles vary (greatly), and what seems like a waste to one player, is needed by another's playstyle/perspective.

Happy new year!

Similar approach here. Getting into early-late game on my current mp 2.5 playthrough.

My farm is smaller than on previous runs for this stage of the game: only 63 plots, and only 2 dew collectors. I've got 3 apiaries. With two of us playing those two provide enough honey that I can easily stay ahead of production on Honey Glazed Brisket (huge hit of food in one go, with a giant smell radius which frankly I love). Since the apiary is "powered" by flowers you need to grow in your garden, increasing the number of apiaries can necessitate increasing the number of garden plots. It's pretty well done in my opinion.
 
Edit: We do see survival games incorporating things like rain collectors, apiaries and chicken coops as a form of progression, but "survivalists" don't see dew collectors as a form of progression. They'd much prefer to get their water from natural sources. ;)
as someone that owns raw land and has built his own house over the last year, I do believe survivalist and nomad are getting confused in that statement. a survivalist does everything they can to make surviving easier. this includes things like chicken coops and apiaries and also planting seeds that may grow into food later. You use EVERYTHING at your disposal to reduce the calories you are expending in a given day.

a Nomad however doesnt want any roots to hold them down. two very different concepts.
 
as someone that owns raw land and has built his own house over the last year, I do believe survivalist and nomad are getting confused in that statement. a survivalist does everything they can to make surviving easier. this includes things like chicken coops and apiaries and also planting seeds that may grow into food later. You use EVERYTHING at your disposal to reduce the calories you are expending in a given day.

a Nomad however doesnt want any roots to hold them down. two very different concepts.
By all means, substitute any terms you like for classes and playstyles. (I'd go for Pathfinder over Nomad myself.)

Point is: TFP are going to be asked to implement more and more of these contraptions with mods for progression each and not only are a lot of people going to complain that they're moving further and further away from the game's roots, but that they will necessitate further balancing and delays if TFP chooses to implement them -- if indeed the plan is actually to finish this game and not turn it into a live service game with continual additions for years to come.

Iow, the apiary is no different than the dew collector and any arguments over former and current methods of harvesting will be no different than the natural vs artificial water collection debates and TFP should probably decide whether they want this game to be a finished, self-contained unit or a perpetual nightmare.
 
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Similar approach here. Getting into early-late game on my current mp 2.5 playthrough.

My farm is smaller than on previous runs for this stage of the game: only 63 plots, and only 2 dew collectors. I've got 3 apiaries. With two of us playing those two provide enough honey that I can easily stay ahead of production on Honey Glazed Brisket (huge hit of food in one go, with a giant smell radius which frankly I love). Since the apiary is "powered" by flowers you need to grow in your garden, increasing the number of apiaries can necessitate increasing the number of garden plots. It's pretty well done in my opinion.
My friend is currently playing v2.5, and mentioned some stuff that foes into the apiary, but I'm stuck waiting for the font size to be returned to v2.4 size, as I cannot read my stanimia numbers currently. How much Honey do you get, and how many flowers do they take?

My current game, I know not how many farm plots I have total. I'm aware of a 23x7 patch, bu not sure how many spares I have and am not yet using. Did day 29 last time I played. Spent friday afternoon-evening in the ER, than all day Saturday, and left this morning (AMA) when they couldn't 'allow/trust' me to walk to the cafeteria. Never did get admitted to the Hospital proper. Ended up walking 3+ miles home on snow and ice covered sidwalks.

Anyway, hoping everyone else is haveing a happy new year.
 
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