They are bring a hybrid LBD!

What do the examples you gave me have anything to do with min/maxers?

Maybe you're confusing my argument with exploiters? :unsure:
But that's another can of worms altogether.

To clarify: a game should be well balanced, I agree, but I'm saying that the criteria for balancing it shouldn't come from looking at the players in the "extreme" of the play style spectrum.
Balancing spells around each other isn't exploitative unless you define an unfair advantage as an exploit. I feel like a lot of people tend to play the "most effective" way possible barring some exceptions. It's why when we had temperature I always be-lined it to a clothing store and with magazines I head to the bookstores and make sure to loot every mailbox.

It's also why there are a ton of YouTube guides on "top 10 base locations", "weapons tier lists", etc.
Most of this is predicated on the idea that I want them to replace the system entirely.

I want options.

I want them to make LBD the way the LBD fans want it (hint...the past) and I want them to keep LBR for the people who like that and just slap it on a menu toggle. It's really the only way to please everyone. There's no point in the debate IMO because you CANNOT please both so they should just implement both since both are obviously wanted by some amount of people. Right now we know hundreds of thousands of people download mods with LBD and hundreds of thousands don't download those mods.

I imagine we'll see when TFP implements their Hybrid if LBR actually has any meaningful fanbase because of course, if it does, there will be 10 massive overhaul mods just clamoring to re implement learn by reading. Though I have a sneaking suspicion, that won't be the outcome. I suspect the vast majority of the players shrimply don't care in the slightest either way. Something something slop.
Too many toggles means they have to adjust two things instead of one. I dislike that idea. I think if they go LBD hybrid they just change it as such. I don't want the old LBD system as it wasn't all that interesting in itself. The perk+LBD hybrid seems like it would help shore up deficiencies with both systems. It would take some effort but it's 100% better than a toggle. This is something that would hard to balance two systems at once.

I don't care a lot about it because I don't think the core issues with the game have anything to do with LBD but the way you progress via quests, the linear dungeons and lack of world interactivity thanks to cities. Instead of creating your own adventure by exploring and looting random POIs every so often you just rinse/repeat the same thing every game. Quest 1 into Quest 2 into Quest 3, etc.

They need dynamic events and exclusive POIs that spawn in the wilderness that offer very tangible reasons to go wandering again. That IMO, is the core difference between now and A16. Not LBD.
 
I feel like a lot of people tend to play the "most effective" way possible barring some exceptions.
Well, there you go!

It's also why there are a ton of YouTube guides on "top 10 base locations", "weapons tier lists", etc.
I used some of those only many years ago when I started playing and I had no idea of how to play.
Unless a game is very complex I tend to avoid guides, but I do appreciate someone takes the time to make them for when needed.
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Too many toggles means they have to adjust two things instead of one. I dislike that idea.
I agree.
 
Too many toggles means they have to adjust two things instead of one. I dislike that idea.
Local forum user unhappy with being given too many choices. Reasons we can't have nice things continue to grow faster than stock market.

I HATE customization and choices. When I go to the grocery store and I see a shelf full of 15 different flavours of soup I ■■■■ both legs of my jeans (of which I own 7 pairs in the exact same brand and colour) and complain to the manager. "Why do you sell 15 brands of soup" I cry, on my knees in tears, "CANT YOU JUST MAKE ONE THAT TASTES LIKE ALL OF THEM" I scream red faced into floor. "IT WOULD BE SO MUCH MORE LOGISTICALLY CONVENIENT FOR YOUR STORE TO JUST SELL ONE" I bellow as they put me into the ambulance assuming I'm having some kind of psychotic episode.

Can't they see that one soup that everyone likes is so vastly EASIER to supply?
 
Can't they see that one soup that everyone likes is so vastly EASIER to supply?
There's a bit of a difference though; with 15 flavors of soup, any pick is a satisfying experience, designed by a chef somewhere. Having a bunch of settings is like going to the veggies aisle to look for soup. If you Know what to get, you might get a passable soup, with a lot of cooking. But how the F was I supposed to know that a Pepper isn't a Pepper isn't a Pepper... and that any soup is balanced only without potatoes, if you add spuds, you'll get smash.
 
There's a bit of a difference though; with 15 flavors of soup, any pick is a satisfying experience, designed by a chef somewhere. Having a bunch of settings is like going to the veggies aisle to look for soup. If you Know what to get, you might get a passable soup, with a lot of cooking. But how the F was I supposed to know that a Pepper isn't a Pepper isn't a Pepper... and that any soup is balanced only without potatoes, if you add spuds, you'll get smash.
Okay so your point is "People are incredibly stupid and YOU should suffer for that"?
 
Most of this is predicated on the idea that I want them to replace the system entirely.

I want options.

I want them to make LBD the way the LBD fans want it (hint...the past) and I want them to keep LBR for the people who like that and just slap it on a menu toggle. It's really the only way to please everyone. There's no point in the debate IMO because you CANNOT please both so they should just implement both since both are obviously wanted by some amount of people. Right now we know hundreds of thousands of people download mods with LBD and hundreds of thousands don't download those mods.

I imagine we'll see when TFP implements their Hybrid if LBR actually has any meaningful fanbase because of course, if it does, there will be 10 massive overhaul mods just clamoring to re implement learn by reading. Though I have a sneaking suspicion, that won't be the outcome. I suspect the vast majority of the players shrimply don't care in the slightest either way. Something something slop.
I'd be fine if it's a game option to enable or disable LBD. If they did that, I wouldn't care at all how they implement LBD in the game because I'll just disable it. I doubt they'll do that for LBD, though. In the end, if it's poorly designed for my preference, I'll use a mod to remove it yet again. You're focused on overhaul mods for some strange reason - I assume because you like some overhaul mod - but there is no need to spend a massive amount of time making an overhaul mod just to remove LBD. There will be a mod that is designed specifically to remove LBD. Just like there are mods that specifically remove magazines. Most people don't play overhauls. There's nothing wrong with them, and they are good if you like all the changes they make, but most just want an experience that is more in line with the original game design. For me, I never play overhauls because even if I like some changes they make, they also make a lot of changes that I really don't like. So I stick to a mix of regular mods to customize things they way I want without a lot of stuff I don't want.

They need dynamic events and exclusive POIs that spawn in the wilderness that offer very tangible reasons to go wandering again.
Well, most wilderness POI are already exclusive to the wilderness. The issue is that most aren't anything special. There are certain ones that are more unique, but most are some form of house. It is more of an issue where they need to make more unique and interesting POI that are in the wilderness. Red Mesa is a good one that many people like to visit, for example. More kinds of interesting POI like that can get people to go to the wilderness more often. But in the end, if people don't enjoy exploring, they aren't going to do so no matter what they add to the game. People play a certain way, and if that means they stay in towns, then that isn't likely to change. Just like if people like avoiding towns, little that is done in towns will change how they play. So we're only really talking about people who don't care whether they are in towns or wilderness and feel like they need incentive to go to one or the other. I'm guessing that's a relatively small percentage of people. Doesn't mean they shouldn't add more unique POI to the wilderness, of course. I'd love to see more out there. But that wouldn't really increase the time I spend in the wilderness.
 
Okay so your point is "People are incredibly stupid and YOU should suffer for that"?
No, just you? Does my question mark make my claim reasonable, or am I still making a claim about what you didn't say? ;)

My point is: at one end of "infinite settings" is "here's clang, make your own ■■■■ game". The further down that line we go, the less there is a game, not to mention a good one. Like soups and chefs, the balancing of all of the things is the responsibility of the devs; they can't make infinitely many good games, so they can't really offer infinitely many good settings. Outsourcing the design to the customers appeals to some customers, but not all. I'd say "not most".

I bought and played Magicka 2, a good fun game in principle. The moment I had played through the short initial "campaign", I was greeted with pages and pages of settings (in different forms) to alter the experience. I said "no thanks". They didn't manage to capture my interest enough to start figuring out "what game I want to play"... or even "if there's any point in doing so".
 
Can't they see that one soup that everyone likes is so vastly EASIER to supply?

Hehe. I know I like choices.

That said, I'm trying to imagine what a new player would face if there are two systems:

"Do you want Learning by Doing" or "Learning through the Rediscovery of Lost Knowledge"?

It's a choice that comes with big ramifications and meaningful context until after you've played with them both. It's a shot in the dark. They're going to take the default. Which one will be the default? Maybe I don't understand the choices you suggest offering.
 
Yeah. I really hope that when they add the new options screens that they also include tooltips for every option that explain what the option does in a way that can make it not be too insane for new players. For example, for jar retention, it might say something like, "Jar retention affects the chance of getting a jar back after using it. If set higher than default, water becomes much easier and you will have a lot of excess jars." I'm sure it could be written better, but it tells what it does and gives an indication of the ramifications of changing the option. I'm not sure how easy it is to keep those concise for every option they plan to add, especially considering we don't know what options they are adding, but I think it could at least be something to work on.

I see both sides of games with many choices. I like choices. But I've also played games that have so many choices that aren't really explained and you're left wondering why you would want to change the settings. If it's a game like this, where you play new games repeatedly, it isn't as bad because you learn what things do and it starts to make sense how the different options will impact the game. For a game that you would only play a few times and then shelf for a year or two, too many unexplained options can ruin the experience.
 
"Jar retention affects the chance of getting a jar back after using it. If set higher than default, water becomes much easier and you will have a lot of excess jars."

Hehehe, we will see, as that is a user's explanation.

Engineer's explanation:

"Rate at which Jars are retained"

:).
 
NGL it's kinda hilarious seeing pushback against LBD when so many people have been screaming for it to return in some form for years now.

I'm just hoping Joel throws us a bone with some posts or vids of it in action well in advance before it gets rolled out live. Maybe have a longer experimental patch period with it. Anything to avoid another 2.0 scenario. I think both players and devs would agree on that at the very least, but what do I know.
 
Local forum user unhappy with being given too many choices. Reasons we can't have nice things continue to grow faster than stock market.

I HATE customization and choices. When I go to the grocery store and I see a shelf full of 15 different flavours of soup I ■■■■ both legs of my jeans (of which I own 7 pairs in the exact same brand and colour) and complain to the manager. "Why do you sell 15 brands of soup" I cry, on my knees in tears, "CANT YOU JUST MAKE ONE THAT TASTES LIKE ALL OF THEM" I scream red faced into floor. "IT WOULD BE SO MUCH MORE LOGISTICALLY CONVENIENT FOR YOUR STORE TO JUST SELL ONE" I bellow as they put me into the ambulance assuming I'm having some kind of psychotic episode.

Can't they see that one soup that everyone likes is so vastly EASIER to supply?

Why not just spend time making the game a dating sim and make that a toggle?
 
Let’s be realistic I highly doubt they’ll make any major changes to the current system. Maybe a few tweaks, nothing big, but they’ll probably make crafting less about collecting books, since that’s what players keep complaining about.
 
NGL it's kinda hilarious seeing pushback against LBD when so many people have been screaming for it to return in some form for years now.
Why is that surprising? A lot of people don't want LBD but had no real reason to "scream" about it since it wasn't something that people thought would actually come back. Now that it's said to be returning, everyone who doesn't want it will start speaking up. That's the thing some people don't understand... you assume that "everyone" wants something because there are a lot of people complaining about it, but you forget that a lot of people aren't complaining because it's already what they want, or at least close. Change things and all the people who were silent now have to speak up and you get a lot of people complaining about the change while those who like the change are now silent.
 
Why is that surprising? A lot of people don't want LBD but had no real reason to "scream" about it since it wasn't something that people thought would actually come back. Now that it's said to be returning, everyone who doesn't want it will start speaking up. That's the thing some people don't understand... you assume that "everyone" wants something because there are a lot of people complaining about it, but you forget that a lot of people aren't complaining because it's already what they want, or at least close. Change things and all the people who were silent now have to speak up and you get a lot of people complaining about the change while those who like the change are

"pushback" and it's 4 people jerking themselves off in an obscure internet forum.

You COULD actually go and engage with the broader community on youtube and other social medias and see how little "pushback" there actually is
Which is why I'm glad Joe stated it on your youtube video. 7 Days 2 Die YT comment sections and reddit had super negative comment sections the past while. For the first time in a while, people are excited. 2.5, and now this? Its a christmas miracle.
 
It would be interesting if TFP did a poll asking, "Which system do you prefer?" From what I've seen on social media and other polls, magazines are almost always chosen by a tiny minority, maybe just over 1%. The “learn by doing” and hybrid systems usually dominate, and “learn by doing” also gets pretty good results. We're talking hundreds of thousands of people. Of course, not everyone votes, and not everyone wants the “learn by doing” system. Almost no one chooses books, and the hybrid system is usually picked by more than half of the people. Obviously, it’s not fully representative since not everyone votes, but in my opinion, hybrid is something they will definitely implement.

Currently, crafting uses books numbered 1–100, which makes collecting them a real hassle. This system will likely become more “learn by doing” with fewer books, which will significantly reduce the role of books. Individual volumes 1–7 will be harder to find. They might add some action skills, but only for combat and resource gathering, and they will probably be much simpler than before since it’s meant to be a system for everyone. Attributes won’t change you’ll still invest levels in them, with bonus EXP for each perk in a given attribute, in my opinion.
 
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