V2.5 Survival Revival Dev Diary

Riamus said:
It might not be wasteland, but the layout should be the same.
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It is not the same layout that I was seeing. Here is a Center Wasteland world I just generated using all the default percentages.

I was lucky with this one, since there are actually roads that go around the "points" of the wasteland. Most of the other maps I generated were not so lucky.

V2.5_2025-12-20_23-39-00.jpg

But, I messed around with it more. It seems like some seeds do not rotate the Wasteland biome relative to the map. I only saw that with Center Forest, and never with Center Wasteland, but I guess that was just the luck of the draw.

Riamus said:
As far as point #2, the layout is based on your biome percentages. It'll be in order based on those, so adjust them to change the order of the biomes.
Click to expand...

I did not know this. Is it documented anywhere?

I usually make the Desert and Snow biome sizes the same. I guess that would explain what I am seeing.
 
khzmusik said:
It is not the same layout that I was seeing. Here is a Center Wasteland world I just generated using all the default percentages.

I was lucky with this one, since there are actually roads that go around the "points" of the wasteland. Most of the other maps I generated were not so lucky.

View attachment 37772

But, I messed around with it more. It seems like some seeds do not rotate the Wasteland biome relative to the map. I only saw that with Center Forest, and never with Center Wasteland, but I guess that was just the luck of the draw.



I did not know this. Is it documented anywhere?

I usually make the Desert and Snow biome sizes the same. I guess that would explain what I am seeing.
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Mine was with different percentages, so that may be part of the difference. As far as the order being related to the percentages, I don't think it's documented anywhere, but it was mentioned by faatal here at one point. Or maybe someone else from TFP, but I think it was faatal. I had brought it up when the new biome layouts first came out and it wasn't giving them in order when using the line layout because I had been changing the percentages and that was then they said it was based on those.
 
khzmusik said:
I was lucky with this one, since there are actually roads that go around the "points" of the wasteland. Most of the other maps I generated were not so lucky.
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I don’t want to be dismissive if something’s not working as intended. However... you don’t have to travel along the roads. The plains and hills are largely traversable, too. I’ll often leave the road to follow along the border between biomes.
 
IzPrebuilt said:
View attachment 37761

I realized the vast majority of people did not see a comment nested in another comment on a random video of mine but this info might be of interest here.

(The ego comment is in reference to the comment he was replying to)
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I totally missed both the comment on your video, and your comment on this thread. I blame society. :)

I hope Joel makes this happen, because the magazine system is the one remaining system that I think should be redone.

I started on A16, and didn't have an issue with LBD. But it could easily be exploited, so I understand why TFP wanted to do something different.

I also didn't have much of an issue with the system that came after LBD, where crafting was tied to a particular perk. But as a result, it "forced" players to buy the crafting-related perks, since they were the most valuable. (It didn't actually "force" anyone, but that's often what it felt like it was trying to do.) For example, I always put points into Miner 69'er solely because it gave me the ability to craft better tools; otherwise I would have put points into Mother Lode instead, because I prefer getting more resources over breaking blocks faster.

The magazine system didn't solve that issue. The game still favors crafting-related perks, but it's now indirect; players get the perks that boost their odds of getting specific crafting magazines, instead of boosting crafting skills directly.

And it introduced new problems. It now favors looting above everything else (so solo players who prefer to do things other than looting are out of luck). It also favors POIs that players think have the magazines they want (e.g. Crack-A-Book, the gas stations for vehicle magazines), so it "forces" players to adopt a specific exploration style as well.

It's also a bit inconsistent. Most of the crafting is gated by crafting magazines, but a few items can only be crafted once you find their schematics, and a few can only be crafted by completing book series. These are all just different kinds of reading materials, which you attain the same way: by looting places that have reading materials. They encourage exactly the same in-game behavior, so what's the point of making different systems?

None of this is to say that the magazine system is a bad system. It's not. But neither of the previous systems were any worse IMHO, so we didn't really gain anything from it.

The proposed combination of magazines (learning by looting) and skill-based crafting (LBD) is probably the right call. It seems to be what most modders are trying to do anyway, so we know there's a general demand for it.

At the very least, I am pretty sure I will enjoy it more than the magazine system we have now.
 
khzmusik said:
I totally missed both the comment on your video, and your comment on this thread. I blame society. :)

I hope Joel makes this happen, because the magazine system is the one remaining system that I think should be redone.

I started on A16, and didn't have an issue with LBD. But it could easily be exploited, so I understand why TFP wanted to do something different.

I also didn't have much of an issue with the system that came after LBD, where crafting was tied to a particular perk. But as a result, it "forced" players to buy the crafting-related perks, since they were the most valuable. (It didn't actually "force" anyone, but that's often what it felt like it was trying to do.) For example, I always put points into Miner 69'er solely because it gave me the ability to craft better tools; otherwise I would have put points into Mother Lode instead, because I prefer getting more resources over breaking blocks faster.

The magazine system didn't solve that issue. The game still favors crafting-related perks, but it's now indirect; players get the perks that boost their odds of getting specific crafting magazines, instead of boosting crafting skills directly.

And it introduced new problems. It now favors looting above everything else (so solo players who prefer to do things other than looting are out of luck). It also favors POIs that players think have the magazines they want (e.g. Crack-A-Book, the gas stations for vehicle magazines), so it "forces" players to adopt a specific exploration style as well.

It's also a bit inconsistent. Most of the crafting is gated by crafting magazines, but a few items can only be crafted once you find their schematics, and a few can only be crafted by completing book series. These are all just different kinds of reading materials, which you attain the same way: by looting places that have reading materials. They encourage exactly the same in-game behavior, so what's the point of making different systems?

None of this is to say that the magazine system is a bad system. It's not. But neither of the previous systems were any worse IMHO, so we didn't really gain anything from it.

The proposed combination of magazines (learning by looting) and skill-based crafting (LBD) is probably the right call. It seems to be what most modders are trying to do anyway, so we know there's a general demand for it.

At the very least, I am pretty sure I will enjoy it more than the magazine system we have now.
Click to expand...
All the points you describe as "forcing" and "gates" or that are causing "issues" are instead totally POSITIVES for me.

Exploration has become meaningful again (finally) so that you need to think strategically when looting.
Different buildings (POIs) have finally their own character and purpose.
You can finally strive to achieve something and not just repeat an action for 1000 times and be sure to have it while sitting on your butt.

Also, I've always liked that the current skill point system doesn't force you to invest in whatever you've been doing most.
I may have to dig and fell trees a lot to get resources, or craft a lot, but maybe I want to invest my points in guns? Done.

So, I don't really know what Joel is thinking to introduce LBD for, but I trust that he'll pick something that will not break all the good things that have been introduced with the magazine and book systems.

And, just to clarify, looting and exploration are INTEGRAL parts of the game. If someone wants to play the game without exploring and looting, well, they have mods.
 
@Laz Man @faatal I have 2 questions that maybe you would be able to answer :

1-I've seen that Random Wold generation and seeds in general tend to skip traders and certain Tiers of POI altogether at low-end maps ( 2k X 2k sizes), and I would like to know if you guys have talked about introducing functional low-requirement questable POI to these worlds (non-remnant questable POI).

For example, creating tailored mini-clusters of POI that require very little space and have very few conditions to spawn, like the Old West town, but more of them and with a few tiered places.

That way, if you ever jam-pack a trader into a tiny prop, quest progression wouldn't be broken, and if a TIER V POI can be spawned in a 30x30 space due to it being a huge tower or skyscrapper that can do with other POI very very close to it, then nice too!

2- Regarding these previous questions, have you guys talked about a higher level of POI structural flexibility? Like if you do a quest the second time in a questable house, then all of a sudden a portion of it might appear completely destroyed or burned. I know that is beyond switching furniture doors and loot positions, but still, I remember Rick hinting at something like that in the past?

A big hug and love and stuff.
 
Blake_ said:
@Laz Man @faatal I have 2 questions that maybe you would be able to answer :

1-I've seen that Random Wold generation and seeds in general tend to skip traders and certain Tiers of POI altogether at low-end maps ( 2k X 2k sizes), and I would like to know if you guys have talked about introducing functional low-requirement questable POI to these worlds (non-remnant questable POI).

For example, creating tailored mini-clusters of POI that require very little space and have very few conditions to spawn, like the Old West town, but more of them and with a few tiered places.

That way, if you ever jam-pack a trader into a tiny prop, quest progression wouldn't be broken, and if a TIER V POI can be spawned in a 30x30 space due to it being a huge tower or skyscrapper that can do with other POI very very close to it, then nice too!

2- Regarding these previous questions, have you guys talked about a higher level of POI structural flexibility? Like if you do a quest the second time in a questable house, then all of a sudden a portion of it might appear completely destroyed or burned. I know that is beyond switching furniture doors and loot positions, but still, I remember Rick hinting at something like that in the past?

A big hug and love and stuff.
Click to expand...
2k or even 3k maps are there as an experiment. Worlds do not have guarantees that POIs will spawn, just a lot of rules that they should spawn given the opportunity. I would hope we can keep making it better, but Bandits and other tasks are higher priority.
 
Laz Man said:
That could work...😅
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The issue there is you can't rotate 360 like that. You'd have to rotate 180-220 or so and then have to turn completely around the other direction to aim if you needed to look further in the direction you had been turning. I would definitely like an animation improvement for ladders, but I'd still be fine if your whole body can rotate. I'd just like better climbing animation so you aren't seeing feet floating in the air above you if climbing behind someone and see legs moving like you're walking.

faatal said:
2k or even 3k maps are there as an experiment. Worlds do not have guarantees that POIs will spawn, just a lot of rules that they should spawn given the opportunity. I would hope we can keep making it better, but Bandits and other tasks are higher priority.
Click to expand...
Well, there does seem to be an actual problem right now. It seems the industrial cap tile rarely spawns (perhaps never in the current version, though I can't say that for certain). That means all 100x100 industrial-only POI (there are 5 of them) almost never appear on a map of any size. Considering those 5 POI are some nice POI, it is kind of a problem. I think it was @Laz Man who said many months ago that he'd like to improve the problem with industrial caps, but back then it was still working even if it was hard to get those POI. But now it seems you can't get them at all. It would really help to add even just a single new industrial tile that has a 100x100 spot on it that is NOT a cap to improve the chances of those POI being placed. But even just figuring out why the cap tile isn't getting placed would be a big help to people. For reference (this is only one map, so take that with a grain of salt), the ONLY cap tiles I have on my map are rural caps. No other district has cap tiles placed. That didn't used to be the case.
 
Riamus said:
Well, there does seem to be an actual problem right now. It seems the industrial cap tile rarely spawns (perhaps never in the current version, though I can't say that for certain). That means all 100x100 industrial-only POI (there are 5 of them) almost never appear on a map of any size. Considering those 5 POI are some nice POI, it is kind of a problem. I think it was @Laz Man who said many months ago that he'd like to improve the problem with industrial caps, but back then it was still working even if it was hard to get those POI. But now it seems you can't get them at all. It would really help to add even just a single new industrial tile that has a 100x100 spot on it that is NOT a cap to improve the chances of those POI being placed. But even just figuring out why the cap tile isn't getting placed would be a big help to people. For reference (this is only one map, so take that with a grain of salt), the ONLY cap tiles I have on my map are rural caps. No other district has cap tiles placed. That didn't used to be the case.
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Yeah, only Factory 03 spawns in a 10k map.
No 01,02,04 or 05 spawned in my 5 tests.

@faatal I gather after bandits that RWG really needs to be reworked. 1 Supermarket, pill store, book store and gas station per small town and a couple of each for bigger ones is enough, but the cell generator needs to check for a limit in the map, or else you get 50 of the same pop and pills, gas station, book store over said map...etc (and funny thing...there are plenty to choose from). If you change city and you get the exact same type of buildings without variation, it doesn't make sense at all.

If a 10k map has 30-32 cities the solution is simple: have 32-35 different gas stations in total, 32-35 different bookstores in total, same with pop and pills, same with clothing stores or hardware\appliance ones,

Residential? same. You must have 1 or more residential areas, but not the same that the previous city. In this case conditions are of tier, but I'm sure as heck as we have more than 50 tier 1 houses and more coming, and bigger ones like tier 4 and 5 should go to a minimum of 32-35 and NEVER repeat.

Random is positioning, biome, city planming or remnant variety, NOT POI short straws everywhere where you get a photocopy every single city.
 
Blake_ said:
Yeah, only Factory 03 spawns in a 10k map.
No 01,02,04 or 05 spawned in my 5 tests.

@faatal I gather after bandits that RWG really needs to be reworked. 1 Supermarket, pill store, book store and gas station per small town and a couple of each for bigger ones is enough, but the cell generator needs to check for a limit in the map, or else you get 50 of the same pop and pills, gas station, book store over said map...etc (and funny thing...there are plenty to choose from). If you change city and you get the exact same type of buildings without variation, it doesn't make sense at all.

If a 10k map has 30-32 cities the solution is simple: have 32-35 different gas stations in total, 32-35 different bookstores in total, same with pop and pills, same with clothing stores or hardware\appliance ones,

Residential? same. You must have 1 or more residential areas, but not the same that the previous city. In this case conditions are of tier, but I'm sure as heck as we have more than 50 tier 1 houses and more coming, and bigger ones like tier 4 and 5 should go to a minimum of 32-35 and NEVER repeat.

Random is positioning, biome, city planming or remnant variety, NOT POI short straws everywhere where you get a photocopy every single city.
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Well, repeating POI isn't necessarily possible to prevent without empty spaces, especially on higher tier POI. There just aren't enough and they can't appear anywhere. They can only appear in specific districts and in specific locations on specific tiles. They also have a distance limit on them already to help keep them away from themselves. But that doesn't prevent them from being in other towns or the opposite side of a larger town. At least with the default distance values. You could increase those distance values to something like 16000 and then you can only get one of each unless it needs to fill a space where nothing fits (I don't think RWG will leave a space blank just because nothing can go there based on distances). But I don't think that's necessarily a good option either. Skyscrapers had previously been limited to one per map of each and people didn't like it.

That doesn't mean it can't get improved. Not placing one POI until all other POI that can go into that same district and marker size have been placed can help a lot. So if you had 4 POI of the same size that can be placed in a district, one would get placed, then before it could be placed again, the others would have to be placed. Then it can repeat, even randomly. That helps to guarantee that you won't have 10 of the first POI and 1 of the others (or whatever number of each). It would be a more even distribution and can still be done randomly. But that doesn't mean you won't see duplicates within the same town or in other towns. Spaces still need filled and there are far more spaces on a map than available POI, even among tier 1 POI.
 
HammerDano said:
seems like they crunched their staff and still put out a buggy mess
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I mean i haven't had any problems but I did notice something with the fireman almanac

Book one gives you a higher chance to get water.... yet finding murky water in loot is very rare sense it was replaced with jars... so that book is kinda worthless @schwanz9000

Merry soon to be Xmas BTW hope yall enjoy your break
 
Riamus said:
Not placing one POI until all other POI that can go into that same district and marker size have been placed can help a lot.
Click to expand...

The bias system already makes that happen, if I understand it correctly. (I can only operate on the comments in rwgmixer.xml to understand how it works.)

By the time you narrow down a location based on District and POI size, there really isn't a huge collection of POIs for any particular location. When you get into big maps, RWG has an insatiable appetite for POIs.

To go with this, it takes time to generate POIs. I mean I've made around 250 since A19 at a quality lower than TFP's. I think TFP ships around 1,000. When folks talk about making a 10k map full of unique settlements, I suspect they don't appreciate the scale of the map versus productivity to-date.

To make matters worse, we humans are pretty good at spotting patterns. The more maps you see the more similar maps become. After a while, the permutations of the fifteen possible POIs and its neighbors that can fit onto a certain Tile location will all seem familiar. There will be an endless craving of new POIs that only automation could solve, but likely with a significant drop in quality, assuming we could even invent an algorithm to generate viable POIs.
 
dafuq is this in console???

Code: 
WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_Body, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_LArm, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/LeftShoulder/LeftArm

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_LLowerArm, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/LeftShoulder/LeftArm/LeftForeArm

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_RArm, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/RightShoulder/RightArm

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_RLowerArm, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/RightShoulder/RightArm/RightForeArm

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_Head, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/Neck/Head

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_Body, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_LArm, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/LeftShoulder/LeftArm

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_LLowerArm, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/LeftShoulder/LeftArm/LeftForeArm

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_RArm, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/RightShoulder/RightArm

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_RLowerArm, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/RightShoulder/RightArm/RightForeArm

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_Head, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/Neck/Head
 
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zztong said:
The bias system already makes that happen, if I understand it correctly. (I can only operate on the comments in rwgmixer.xml to understand how it works.)

By the time you narrow down a location based on District and POI size, there really isn't a huge collection of POIs for any particular location. When you get into big maps, RWG has an insatiable appetite for POIs.

To go with this, it takes time to generate POIs. I mean I've made around 250 since A19 at a quality lower than TFP's. I think TFP ships around 1,000. When folks talk about making a 10k map full of unique settlements, I suspect they don't appreciate the scale of the map versus productivity to-date.

To make matters worse, we humans are pretty good at spotting patterns. The more maps you see the more similar maps become. After a while, the permutations of the fifteen possible POIs and its neighbors that can fit onto a certain Tile location will all seem familiar. There will be an endless craving of new POIs that only automation could solve, but likely with a significant drop in quality, assuming we could even invent an algorithm to generate viable POIs.
Click to expand...
I don't really know what the bias system does since I really don't do anything with rwgmixer or RWG in general. But if that does what I said, then that's good.

It definitely takes time to create POI. I'm very slow with it and have pretty much given up on making much since it's so time consuming. I appreciate all the work you do in making your prefabs. As far as locations for things, it kind of depends what size POI you're talking about. There are a lot of 42x42 for most districts, while there are far fewer 100x100s. But it definitely isn't easy to get only unique POI in towns because of the placement restrictions for many POI and the limited number of POI to choose from. You'd pretty much need to quadruple the total number of vanilla POI or so, with an emphasis on higher tier POI, if you wanted to not see duplicates. But it takes a LOT of time to create them, as you said. That's why I use a few different POI packs to help increase the variety.

And you're definitely right about people seeing patterns. We recognize things very easily and remember them just as easily. Even with 1000+ vanilla POI, if you've played a few hundred hours (random number, it could be more or less), you know where all the zombies spawn in most of the POI. It's surprising how well we remember that when it can sometimes be difficult to remember other kinds of information. The unfortunate effect of that is it looks very repetitive to us no matter what is done to help with that. I really think more tiles would end up making more of a difference than more POI, though. A new tile with a different layout of POI sizes can help to make a block look different more than just a new POI you see here and there. If they could spend some time making some more tiles, perhaps doubling what is there already, it would really help to improve the variety in how towns look.
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HB_H4wk said:
dafuq is this in console???


WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_Body, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_LArm, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/LeftShoulder/LeftArm

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_LLowerArm, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/LeftShoulder/LeftArm/LeftForeArm

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_RArm, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/RightShoulder/RightArm

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_RLowerArm, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/RightShoulder/RightArm/RightForeArm

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_Head, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/Neck/Head

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_Body, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_LArm, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/LeftShoulder/LeftArm

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_LLowerArm, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/LeftShoulder/LeftArm/LeftForeArm

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_RArm, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/RightShoulder/RightArm

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_RLowerArm, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/RightShoulder/RightArm/RightForeArm

WRN PhysicsBodies EntityTrader, E_BP_Head, path not found Hips/LowerBack/Spine/Spine1/Neck/Head
Click to expand...
Something didn't load right. You'd need to check your log for an actual ERR message to get an idea of the cause of those warnings.
 
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