Balancing Between the Old LBD system and the new Magazine system

[madmole]

Possibly. However it’s more likely that my perked melee crafting skill is simply higher than yours due to playstyle differences. And I don’t think I am atypical in this regard.

If you are talking about unperked melee weapons…I think it’s incredibly rare for people to use melee weapons they aren’t perked into. Finding a sledgehammer when I am going for a knife or spear has very little value for me. Whereas finding a T1 or T2 shotgun or machine gun when playing agility or perception would be welcome.

No I'm perked into sledgehammers and maxed it out already by day 25, and I still found 2 sledges (A T3 steel when all I could craft was T1 steel, and then I got to T3 crafting and found a T4 Steel sledge, so looting is staying ahead of my crafting ability on this playthrough so that rogue hood seems to really help. I found a green one so it's pretty decent on the loot bonus. I imagine if you invested into looting perks and wore this it would be even better.

Anyhow when the new weapons/items system drops stats will be more randomized, and you'll be able to combine two items to inherit the best stats of both, so I'd say you find one in loot even if it's not as good in one stat, chances are it might have a better stat, and if not you can sell it or merge it in to get some degradation out of it, so looting will have more value than before and a decision to sell it, merge it in with your best weapon, scrap it for parts, etc. Crafting more after you get your purple one will have value as well, as you might get lucky and have a better stat, so I see much longer games happening when this happens because progression will never truly be over until hundreds of hours. (in theory)

 

[Kalen]

Anyhow when the new weapons/items system drops stats will be more randomized, and you'll be able to combine two items to inherit the best stats of both

That sounds really cool.... can't wait to play with that.

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

No I'm perked into sledgehammers and maxed it out already by day 25, and I still found 2 sledges (A T3 steel when all I could craft was T1 steel, and then I got to T3 crafting and found a T4 Steel sledge, so looting is staying ahead of my crafting ability on this playthrough so that rogue hood seems to really help. I found a green one so it's pretty decent on the loot bonus. I imagine if you invested into looting perks and wore this it would be even better.

Anyhow when the new weapons/items system drops stats will be more randomized, and you'll be able to combine two items to inherit the best stats of both, so I'd say you find one in loot even if it's not as good in one stat, chances are it might have a better stat, and if not you can sell it or merge it in to get some degradation out of it, so looting will have more value than before and a decision to sell it, merge it in with your best weapon, scrap it for parts, etc. Crafting more after you get your purple one will have value as well, as you might get lucky and have a better stat, so I see much longer games happening when this happens because progression will never truly be over until hundreds of hours. (in theory)

Looking forward to giving this a spin when it releases.

 

[Rotor]

I get that. And I know some people hate RNG. But ...

Welcome to my camp, would you like a murky jar of water to boil?

Any who, I absolutely despise RNGezus (ain't praying this time). Haven't had a chance to extensively play the mag system, but if RNGeezus is diminished, I am good.

 

[Rotor]

Lucky Looter is an absolute beast. I max it out every playthrough.

Well, here comes the Nerf bat!

 

[Lax]

Yea I use the Rogue Hood every playthrough. If you find or buy the Treasure Hunter Mod for it and max out Lucky Looter, your Loot Stage is pretty epic combined with higher XP kills.

 

[Ralathar44]

I don't think some folks really understand that additional randomness is a value add for them but often a game breaker or creates clear quit points for others. I've been here long enough I remember the weeks long searches for things like calipers and beakers as RNG repeatedly said no. If you're someone who likes randomness then that's slightly frustrating and then an AWWW YEAH moment when you FINALLY find it. But for people who don't like randomness that's an uninstall.

Another thing that has changed is that im older now. I still have plenty of time, lucky for me, but the amount of time I'm willing to spend farming single digit % rate drops or grindy progression systems now is much lower than when I was younger. Whether its a drop in 7 Days to Die or a weapon in Elden Ring or a piece of gear in Path of Exiles 2. And alot of people like me, who grew up with NES and SNES now make up a huge % of the gaming playerbase. The average gamer age is like 35-36 now. Most of those people have reduced tolerance for RNG like I do thanks to 20 years of it and also have far less time than I or younger people do.

If I ever find myself spending hours grinding for something in a game. I just uninstall now. I have so many great games at my fingertips. I don't need to throw away hour after hour just hoping that game is eventually gonna give me that RNG dopamine hit. I can play countless other quality games that won't waste my time by gating significant progression milestones behind mindless farming.

There is still a place for randomness and long term goals in an RNG system mind you. But if you're doing that what you need to do is a complex rewards structure of layered progression goals. Warframe is a good example of this. At any given time in Warframe you have a multitude of short, medium, and long term goals being pursued. Long term goals do not feel as grindy because your attention is occupied most of the time by the much more achievable short and medium term goals. So you always feel like you're progressing. In fact when I ran out of most of the short and medium term goals I quit warframe. Because after playing so long everything I had left to achieve/get was some super grindy low % drop.

 

[theFlu]

I don't need to throw away hour after hour just hoping that game is eventually gonna give me that RNG dopamine hit.

I'm kinda in the randomness boat, but I do get that long grinds are just silly. They're mostly a means for monthly subs to keep paying, IMO. Unless the gameplay itself is great in between, of course.

But here, I think it could easily easily be 100% random progress, with the pressure valve of traders; they could sell whatever "guaranteed progress" items are required after something like D30. Or give some quest chain for each item, clear a few POIs and then the last one spawns a specific box.

I'm not proposing that as an actual system, even though I might prefer it over the current one. Just an example that there's ways to deal with randomness other than making Everything Exactly Linear.

 

[Jost Amman]

Just an example that there's ways to deal with randomness other than making Everything Exactly Linear.

Yeah. I've heard somewhere of this kind of "moderated" randomness system, where the game keeps track of how many rolls you had on something.
So, say you have to roll a ONE on 100 to get a very rare item from a chest, but you fail. Next time the game will check if you roll ONE on 99 (instead of 100), and so on so forth.

Depending on the rarity of the item, the game could subtract more (e.g.: 5) on each failed roll, until you basically have a guaranteed score.

 

[Kalen]

The better way, IMO, to handle randomness is to make sure nothing is essential. So there is always another way if you don't get that exact item you're looking for.

 

[theFlu]

So, say you have to roll a ONE on 100 to get a very rare item from a chest, but you fail. Next time the game will check if you roll ONE on 99 (instead of 100), and so on so forth.

Ye, plenty of ways to fiddle with "random" things. That one might be a tad worky to implement and balance, deciding what is important, what loot containers effect the chances, etc etc. Possible though.

to handle randomness is to make sure nothing is essential.

To be honest, that's pretty much the current game. You don't need any single thing to handle anything the game throws at you. Meds, sure, and other consumables, but nothing "gating" seems actually mandatory. One could do fine without cement mixer, crucible, chem station; even workstation. Not getting a decent spec-specific weapon would be annoying, but you could always keep a few points to partially spec into whatever you actually found; not losing that much in actual effectiveness.

 

[Riamus]

The average gamer age is like 35-36 now.

I actually saw something recently saying the average gamer was 41 and there was about a 50/50 split for male and female. I'm sure there are other studies that give different results, and I have no idea what one(s) are valid research versus just a quick poll, but yeah... gamers are a lot older on average these days. Not like back in the 80s and 90s when most were teens or early 20s.

The better way, IMO, to handle randomness is to make sure nothing is essential. So there is always another way if you don't get that exact item you're looking for.

This is certainly an option, but it can also make a game not worth playing. Watering it down too much can make it boring. Why bother trying to get anything if you can do anything you want in 100 different ways? Yes, that's an exaggeration. As an example, we have a lot of different food items and yet how many do you actually make? You might make a couple of the earlier items in the first few days just to get by, but once you have a farm, you're probably only making 1 or 2 items on a regular basis and only making others just to use up extra canned goods or whatever. So we have a lot of choices, but it just means most end up being ignored. I don't really think that's a good thing.

Anyhow, I get your point and it's a valid option, within certain limitations.

For me, I prefer randomness except if it's a very necessary thing. If you couldn't craft any vehicle without finding the schematics for them and they were all very rare so that you might never get any of them in half your games, and likely not more than one in most of the rest, then that's not good. Some things just need to be easy to obtain... without constantly getting duplicate schematics over and over because they are really common. But there are ways to balance RNG while allowing some things to be easy to get or even automatically obtained in one way or another. The idea that you have to choose RNG or linearity instead of a balance of the two is incorrect. Of course, I don't know that anyone is actually suggesting that here.

 

[Ralathar44]

For me, I prefer randomness except if it's a very necessary thing. If you couldn't craft any vehicle without finding the schematics for them and they were all very rare so that you might never get any of them in half your games, and likely not more than one in most of the rest, then that's not good. Some things just need to be easy to obtain... without constantly getting duplicate schematics over and over because they are really common. But there are ways to balance RNG while allowing some things to be easy to get or even automatically obtained in one way or another. The idea that you have to choose RNG or linearity instead of a balance of the two is incorrect. Of course, I don't know that anyone is actually suggesting that here.

Randomness, in these cases, is always hard to balance. Because unlike an ARPG where you're taking better and better rolls this is very much on on/off binary "you got it" or "you didn't" thing for most areas of progression.

The more random it is, the bigger the payoff, but the more frustrating it can get. Also, the bigger the variance and worst the critical fail state. Say, you have a 4% chance to get this stupid Soldier Crossbow in Elden Ring dropped from a Mesmmer FootSoldier (totally not based on a real story). Average kills to drop = 25. One player might get it after 3 kills, another might still not have it after 100 kills. We could consider 100 kills a critical fail state. It's taken well over double the theoretical average drop rate.

Same characters, same people, different weapon. One player farms a Partsian with similar drop rate after 10 kills. The other player NEVER SEES IT after farming for hours.

Now ofc here are ways to mitigate this. Pity systems, higher drop rates, secondary acquisition via currency. But all of these things lower the value of the drop and make it less "special" for it to drop. So every system that mitigates or gives alternate routes to RNG fail states also lowers the satisfaction of the drop.

In other words, you might as well just make the drop rate more likely since you're going to undercut that feeling either way. And this way you only have to balance one system instead of two separate systems fulfilling the same goal. And this is what magazines basically do. Make RNG progression where the drop rate is often enough that your chances of being screwed are minimal but also being lucky with your drops feels less special.

 

[Kalen]

This is certainly an option, but it can also make a game not worth playing. Watering it down too much can make it boring. Why bother trying to get anything if you can do anything you want in 100 different ways?

You're not wrong.... it has to be handled well. For example, in older versions of the game you needed to find the Forge Ahead book in order to unlock crafting a forge. This made the book extremely important to find. However, in various POIs around the world you could find working forges. So, if you don't find the book you could alternatively set your base in a POI with a forge. So even though you have access to a forge, you still want to find the book.

You're not hamstrung because you didn't find the book, but you really still want to because its much better to have access to crafting more.

 

[Ralathar44]

You're not wrong.... it has to be handled well. For example, in older versions of the game you needed to find the Forge Ahead book in order to unlock crafting a forge. This made the book extremely important to find. However, in various POIs around the world you could find working forges. So, if you don't find the book you could alternatively set your base in a POI with a forge. So even though you have access to a forge, you still want to find the book.

You're not hamstrung because you didn't find the book, but you really still want to because its much better to have access to crafting more.

I think the downside to that solution is it again pushes the trader as being more important. Some people have a really hard time avoiding being addicted to the trader because its the easiest most brain off way to progress. And that doesn't mean that they like that loop either.

I've got a friend in current playthrough on the most recent stable who has sworn forever that you basically had to use the trader and then chain trader quests to progress. In our current run we've only visited trader to finish out challenges and the initial questline, so I think his opinion has changed somewhat but man, that feeling was dug in.

I think the last thing we need is anything making the trader feel more necessary. Because people who feel like him are not the majority, but they're also not uncommon. And sure, the trader was just an example but its also a good example of how even on these "good" solutions there are always other second order or downstream effects that can be negative.

 

[Kalen]

I think the downside to that solution is it again pushes the trader as being more important. Some people have a really hard time avoiding being addicted to the trader because its the easiest most brain off way to progress. And that doesn't mean that they like that loop either.

Well, for the example I mentioned, traders weren't a thing.... but, like I said, it would have to be done well. I'm not a fan of trader questing, personally, but I'm not opposed to traders in general so I don't think its a bad things for traders to fill a gap in acquiring things in the game. That said, I also don't want the traders to be able to provide everything you need.

 

[Rotor]

Well, for the example I mentioned, traders weren't a thing.... but, like I said, it would have to be done well. I'm not a fan of trader questing, personally, but I'm not opposed to traders in general so I don't think its a bad things for traders to fill a gap in acquiring things in the game. That said, I also don't want the traders to be able to provide everything you need.

I generally agree, I only use the trader as an anti RnGeezus mechanic. Ya know, if I can't find a tire after 3 days of looting I will succumb to buying from the trader, cause it sucks that I am looking at all these cars, and some little bit of code is flipping me the finger. And I really, really hate doing it, but it's either that or restart the game.

 

[Lax]

...cause it sucks that I am looking at all these cars, and some little bit of code is flipping me the finger...

Lol.....

 

[meganoth]

You're not wrong.... it has to be handled well. For example, in older versions of the game you needed to find the Forge Ahead book in order to unlock crafting a forge. This made the book extremely important to find. However, in various POIs around the world you could find working forges. So, if you don't find the book you could alternatively set your base in a POI with a forge. So even though you have access to a forge, you still want to find the book.

You're not hamstrung because you didn't find the book, but you really still want to because its much better to have access to crafting more.

Yeah, played that version as well. My group "degenerated" to always using such a POI as starting base until we could build the forge ourselves. If such an easy shortcut to RNG is provided, people will use it. Wasn't really bad though as the RNG was necessarily low for such an item, we always found a forge recipe very fast. It is different for really rare items, many players reported just not finding it.
Statistically you can calculate how many of a player population will get a "frustrating" or "special fun" run for essential or semi-essential items (depending on frust tolerance and desire to play a game with a novel "quest" to solve) while the majority will get a normal one. For rare items there will always be ones who fall into that category.

I don't like the trader as a valve because it just makes finding that valuable item a way to save money in my mind, but lets be honest it is the most dependable and easy way to provide a security valve for RNG.

IMHO a lot of the non-essential stuff could be removed from the magazine system and added as lootable recipes again.

 

[Jost Amman]

They could also do something that is more common in Adventure Games and tie the special object to a difficult or multi-step quest.

For example, if you could only find the crucible in a specific Wasteland POI, that means that for most players that would be locked behind quite a bit of progression. They'd need to gear up and get some points under their belt and probably do the Biome trials first, and then they could finally have the time to explore some specific POIs in the Wasteland to hopefully get a crucible item or even the crucible recipe.

Just an idea.