Please return the old level by playing system

pApA^LeGBa said:
We have heard exactly that about glass jars. And i am by far not the only one unhappy about magazines. This topic keeps popping up constantly, here, on steam, on reddit and FB.
Click to expand...
I'm already happy if it gets implemented by overhaul mods but I don't expect it added back to vanilla.
I also enjoy playing both ways: vanilla with perks and books, or overhaul mods with hybrid LBD + perks.
 
True, I suppose. Have at it then. We'll see if TFP capitulating on jars was allowing the camel to stick its nose in the tent or not...
 
madmole said:
The topic is an old beaten horse. The fact is the vast majority of players NEVER experienced it and like the current system just fine and many players have expressed how tired they are of us changing stuff "that worked fine" so we're definitely not touching this one again.
Click to expand...
Glad to see you back here. I hope the negativity from some people here lately doesn't lead you to leave again. It's good having your voice here now and then.

And I'll just say that I am happy you are standing strong against changing back to LBD. Although I think magazines could use some work, I am much happier with them than with LBD. I wish jars had remained a definite "no" as well, but I can mod them out again, so I'll live with it.
 
Riamus said:
has parts of what each group wants instead of being only focused on one idea or the other.
Click to expand...

If each only has parts, we're not seeing the whole. I'd cite The Blind Men and the Elephant as symbolic of an inability to see the whole, but it shouldn't be necessary. A compromise is when one "side" has to surrender to the other "side" and no one wants to be compromised. That's corruption. Provided they complement one another, e.g. magazines for perks; doing for building skill; or however they wind up "blended;" I don't see a problem. The problem occurs when one is given precedence over or, especially, excludes the other. It seems to me, as a relative outsider looking in (i.e. I haven't been around for the game's entire development process), it's been dropping working systems entirely to do something completely different, perhaps not as interactive or complex, that has some panties in a wad.

I could do without having to come up with 100 pieces of cloth just to make a pocket for my jeans, as in A21, but replacing the wardrobe system with a few "armor" sets doesn't appear to have gone over that well, for example. Same with LBD or learn by looting exclusively. If I had to think of one detrimental aspect to that change it would be the same as the water collection change: the lack of consideration for wilderness areas in a supposedly open world game. May as well have set it exclusively in an urban setting given that the magazines you'll need to build your avatar are concentrated there.
 
toores said:
I think the LBD implementation by The Fun Pimps was just bad. It could have been improved a lot to basically avoid spam crafting. See this mod by youtuber izprebuilt: https://www.nexusmods.com/7daystodie/mods/8642

The learn by reading books will always be less immersive. I'm surviving a zombie apocalypse and my most important goal is to find a truckload of books... what?????

It doesn't help that instead of adding deeper survival mechanics, even the basic ones get streamlied and taken out.
Click to expand...
Was it "bad" or just incomplete?

I'll say it to my dying day: if a player is motivated for whatever reason, conceivable and otherwise, to find ways around mechanics, they'll do it no matter what kind of system you implement. That is, after all, how speed runners do their thing. No system will be foolproof. And I think that's the idea TFP may have gotten caught up in. They wanted to make it foolproof and that's not possible.

Best example? What was with all those utterly illogical restrictions on the C.A.M.P. system in Fallout 76? It took six years to get them lifted so players didn't have to destroy half their camp components with flamethrowers and fix them once everything was in place to achieve their masterpieces. Did Bethesda throw in the towel? Or did they finally say, "Okay. You're right. This is dumb."
 
madmole said:
The topic is an old beaten horse. The fact is the vast majority of players NEVER experienced it and like the current system just fine and many players have expressed how tired they are of us changing stuff "that worked fine" so we're definitely not touching this one again.
Click to expand...
The current system could be made more interesting. Adding passive progression for using a bow, for example, etc.
 
Jost Amman said:
I'm already happy if it gets implemented by overhaul mods but I don't expect it added back to vanilla.
I also enjoy playing both ways: vanilla with perks and books, or overhaul mods with hybrid LBD + perks.
Click to expand...
I certainly wouldn't demand something be added back or else. Or else what? "I'll leave you a bad review?" (Oh, boo-hoo.)

Thing is: console and PC. Sure, PC players can add back or create anew or, in fact, do anything they like and customize it to the hilt. Where does that leave the vanilla game and console players? It's definitely the "vanilla" experience and making that the best it can possibly be TFP should be (and are, I think) concentrating on. Were I them, I'd ignore completely all those comments as to how "modders can do it better than they can." Give me a break. Mod authors are building on TFP's work. If it didn't exist, mod authors would have nothing whatsoever to do. It doesn't hurt in the least, however, to imagine how the vanilla experience could be the best it can possibly be. That's why two heads are better than one. It's not a question of who prefers what, but that's unfortunately the kind of comments I'm seeing most.

I think Richard Hueninck said it once: if you can give us a reason, we'll consider it. So, give them a reason.
 
Last edited:
pApA^LeGBa said:
You were unhappy with LBD like it was in vanilla. That´s no surprise, it wasn´t balanced at all. But getting LBD again doesn´t mean it must be as bad as it used to be. There is a lot of room for improvement from what we had in A16.
Click to expand...

Even a perfect LBD would not make everyone happy.

I don't like the LBD as it is in Darkness Falls and I would claim it is a pretty good LDB. I play the mod when we need something different than vanilla and in other respects it is an excellent mod, but SP I am always playing vanilla.

TFP made the mistake of showing both ways to players and now a percentage of them wants it, a percentage of them doesn't want it. Luckily for me TFP itself is in the percentage not wanting it. For whatever correct or false reasoning doesn't really matter now. Even if there exists a good LBD 7d2d could use, creating it would take another big slice of time and money, would not guarantee it would turn out good and would create another rift where a large percentage of players would pine for a system that once was.

Another game studio, Inxile, once made a similar mistake when they made a poll whether the new Torment game should be turn-based or realtime-with-pause. If one side had been much larger it would have turned out to be an excellent idea to ask. But actually the vote was almost perfectly split between the two options and they decided to go for turn-based. And 50% of their player base probably felt dissatisfied and instead of looking forward to the release felt they lost something. At least discussion about this continued on for a long time.
 
InfiniteWarrior said:
A compromise is when one "side" has to surrender to the other "side" and no one wants to be compromised.
Click to expand...
Um... no. That would be surrendering or capitulating or whatever. A compromise by definition is when both sides have to come to an agreement that involves concessions - things they give up in order to achieve and agreement (a compromise). This can happen even if one side is basically the loser, but if any concessions are given, it's a compromise. If one side gets everything they want, it's not a compromise.

So, a compromise regarding LBD and magazines would be a hybrid system that has parts of each rather than all of one or the other. If one side had everything they wanted, then it wouldn't be a compromise.

And you seem to be open to a compromise, but aren't understanding the meaning of the word. Not sure if that's a language barrier or not, but a compromise is simply both sides coming to an agreement that involves giving up something in order to get something. It isn't a bad thing, at least not unless you are someone who wants everything on one side and doesn't want to give up any concessions.

Now, keeping in mind that there are a wide range of preferences regarding the topic and many of those are somewhere in the middle rather than the extremes, if you have one group who wants LBD without magazines and one group who wants magazines without LBD, you can't have both at once. You can have a compromise, where you have a mix of both. For anyone who already wants some middle ground, and if the final outcome matches what they want, then it isn't a compromise for them because they got what they wanted. But for anyone who is on the extremes or even who is somewhere in the middle who only got some of what they wanted, then it is a compromise for them.

And, to be fair, we are already in a hybrid system. Crafting is magazines. Skills (perks) are LBD. It just isn't LBD like some people want. You still do things over and over to gain experience that you use to improve your skills (perks), but it's general experience rather than being specifically tied to something. So instead of running for long periods of time to build up stamina, you gain stamina through leveling up, which happens when you do anything that gives experience. So it isn't tied to running, but to doing anything. Or jumping up and down repeatedly to improve acrobatics or dexterity or whatever the game calls it, you now do anything you want to get the experience that you can then use to unlock and improve parkour (this game's version of it). So it is still LBD. It just is generalized LBD instead of repeating specific skills or activities to improve only that specific skill or action. But you still have to DO something in order to gain the experience and levels needed to improve your skills (perks), so yes, you are still learning by doing for anything that isn't crafting.
 
RipClaw said:
The main difference between IzPrebuilt and FunPimps is that IzPrebuilt doesn't care when people exploit LDB in his mod, and he does it himself, too.
Post automatically merged:


In reality, it's probably a combination of learning by reading and learning be doing. You can learn from another person or from a source of information, such as a book. Then, you improve through practice.
Click to expand...
I disagree. The main difference is that you can't get a better axe by spamcrafting a stone axe. And his solution is a combination of both, as it still has schematics and some books. Basically he took the poor implementation of LBD by TFP and made it already so much better.
 
Jost Amman said:
Yeah, it doesn't make any sense that written knowledge passed down generations is so important!
That's why regimes burn books when they get in power... ;)
Click to expand...
I get your sarcasm and the attempot to strawmen my argument. But if you try to ridicule my point of view I could point out that it's also illogical to presume a survivour would be become a expert builder/shooter/fighter/athlete/cook (etc.) by reading books and without practice.

I'm not entirely against books or schematics and the izprebuilt mod even has books and schematics while also eliminating most of the spam crafting. My point is that TPF didn't even try to fix this and replaced the system with something isn't better. To me it seems worse and if in the old alphas I could choose not to take advantage of the poor implementation of LBD, then in the current system I'm forced to the detatched-from-survival-experience book meta.
 
toores said:
I get your sarcasm and the attempot to strawmen my argument. But if you try to ridicule my point of view I could point out that it's also illogical to presume a survivour would be become a expert builder/shooter/fighter/athlete/cook (etc.) by reading books and without practice.

I'm not entirely against books or schematics and the izprebuilt mod even has books and schematics while also eliminating most of the spam crafting. My point is that TPF didn't even try to fix this and replaced the system with something isn't better. To me it seems worse and if in the old alphas I could choose not to take advantage of the poor implementation of LBD, then in the current system I'm forced to the detatched-from-survival-experience book meta.
Click to expand...
Look, I get that you're an Izprebuilt fanboy, but you're going way out of your way to criticize what you don't know about TFP just to support your beloved idol.

I wasn't "strawmanning" your argument. I was simply trying to steer the conversation back to some common sense.

As you should know, if you play vanilla, books are mainly used for crafting, and that's the topic we were discussing. So, the fact you're trying to make me look like the guy who said you can learn KungFu from books... THAT is the definition of strawmanning.

I'll give you that the book series that give you bonuses with weapons are not entirely believable. But they're acceptable, considering it's a game. And in any case, your practical experience, in vanilla, is almost totally used by spending the skill points you earned by doing things.

As for the recipe books: most people literally learn recipes from books/magazines/texts. You want to learn cooking? You'll need a recipe book to learn how to prepeare new dishes. You want to learn (i.e.) Origami? You need to buy a book which shows you how to fold the paper correctly to create a duck, a dragon or a paper airplain. You want to build a Radio? You need a technical magazine explaining you what you need and how to assemble it together.

There's literally nothing wrong or nonsensical in using books to learn recipes.

The second thing you don't know about TFP or that you're completely ignoring, is that the LBD system was just a temporary filler that was inserted in the game while they were preparing the basics for what has become the current experience leveling system. They even say that the LBD that was in those older versions was bought "as it was" from the Unity asset store. They just had to "plug it" into the game.

They never had the intention to improve LBD exactly because it wasn't their initial planned system in the first place.

That being said, nothing stand in the way, for them, to change idea and maybe implement some form of LBD in the future. But from what I understand, the main issue with that, is "priorities". Right now they're focused on all sort of different things and LBD, even if considered, would be at the bottom of their list.
 
Jost Amman said:
That being said, nothing stand in the way, for them, to change idea and maybe implement some form of LBD in the future. But from what I understand, the main issue with that, is "priorities". Right now they're focused on all sort of different things and LBD, even if considered, would be at the bottom of their list.
Click to expand...

Not to mention that madmole is completely against LBD systems.
 
Kalen said:
If thats the case, it makes you wonder why they put it in at all
Click to expand...

Did you read Jost's post right above mine?
Jost Amman said:
The second thing you don't know about TFP or that you're completely ignoring, is that the LBD system was just a temporary filler that was inserted in the game while they were preparing the basics for what has become the current experience leveling system. They even say that the LBD that was in those older versions was bought "as it was" from the Unity asset store. They just had to "plug it" into the game.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top