Please return the old level by playing system

theFlu said:
They could make the magazines at least auto-read on loot. Open a book case, get a random increase. Purely quality of life. Now the repetitive thing you do to improve everything, is open bookshelves. Not exactly ... better.
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But... but... I wanted to sell those magazines! 😳
 
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toores said:
With a quantum of sarcasm:
They want to promote mod makers and mods like: "Learn By Doing Returns".

In all seriosness though, I cannot imagine who would prefer the book hunting over LBD. It is mind numbingly boring. The last few big updates I have given up on the game in record time. It has become so repetitive and survival is being diluted out of the game.

I cannot understand the logic of removing the more intuitive progression system because some people can meta the game and replacing it with a system that teaches everybody to meta the game through a less intuitive gameplay.
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Is crafting a bajillion club really that much less boring than just going around your playthrough and finding books as you loot?
 
Riamus said:
Whatever they do, people will complain about it...

  • Go back the original LBD
    • "I hate LBD, you should have left it as magazines."
    • "You keep changing direction over and over. You're awful devs."
  • Stick to magazines
    • "I hate magazines. Give us back LBD."
    • "Nothing after A16 is any good."
  • Compromise
    • "This is not enough of LBD."
    • "This is too much LBD."

TFP has made some mistakes with how they have handled things related to features. By changing direction on features, they create this break in the players, where they just want to complain about the change in direction. If they had stuck with one option or another and didn't change it, but just worked to improve it, there would be fewer complaints. Yes, you'd still get people complaining and either liking or not liking the implementation, but they'd complain less about it if the direction was constant.

Now, I'm not saying I'm not happy they got rid of LBD, because I am. I'm just saying that the direction changes and back and forth for features just generates a lot of bad feelings among players. I hope they have learned their lesson from this game and that they'll hold off making the next game(s) Early Access until they are sure of the direction they are going and then stick to that direction. But considering they are still flip-flopping on stuff, I don't think they have learned the lesson and they'll end up alienating many of the players who start playing it in the early (and middle) parts of Early Access just like they've done here.
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Not necessarily, imo. Again, it's a not a question of either/or but both-and.

I'll leave it to the technicists to debate the...technicalities.
 
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Jost Amman said:
point is that you seem to want players to control the development direction (bad).
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I didn't say that. I said that if the developers release content that doesn't resonate with the fans then they should listen and make changes.
Jost Amman said:
Almost every single product on the market is based mainly on someone coming up with an idea and a plan to implement that idea.
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And a lot of it is based on feedback. It's why we see devs chasing trends.
Jost Amman said:
For me feedback is acceptable if done AFTER development, to correct the course if necessary, while you seem to be wanting feedback BEFORE development to completely control the direction the game must go, which I absolutely disagree with. That may work with open-source projects or some crowd founded â– â– â– â– . It shouldn't be expected from independent developers.
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Whether developers get ideas from players or not is fine. But my point is that if content released is bad enough to â– â– â– â–  off a large contingent of your community then it should be looked at and potentially changed.

Dead by Daylight is a perfect example. Darkest Dungeon is another. They use feedback to develop.
 
Kyoji said:
I didn't say that. I said that if the developers release content that doesn't resonate with the fans then they should listen and make changes.

And a lot of it is based on feedback. It's why we see devs chasing trends.

Whether developers get ideas from players or not is fine. But my point is that if content released is bad enough to â– â– â– â–  off a large contingent of your community then it should be looked at and potentially changed.

Dead by Daylight is a perfect example. Darkest Dungeon is another. They use feedback to develop.
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As for "chasing trends." Show me one development studio that isn't doing that from Bethesda to Obsidian and I'll eat my shorts.
 
Riamus said:
Which was the third option I mentioned - compromise. No option will please everyone. There's no way around that. People like different things.
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You know what "compromised "means, right? Not great in the grander sheme of things. That doesn't stike me as both-and. It actually somewhat stikes me as defeatism, but maybe that's just me.
 
InfiniteWarrior said:
You know what "compromised "means, right? Not great in the grander sheme of things. That doesn't stike me as both-and. It actually somewhat stikes me as defeatism, but maybe that's just me.
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Unless they make it so both are fully in the game and you can choose which option to use in the game settings (unlikely and not worth it), you can't really have both at the same time. You can have a compromise - something like magazines to unlock something and then LBD to improve it - but you can't really do LBD for everything and also have magazines. They conflict with one another if you're talking about the max LBD option versus magazines. Trying to do both would be a mess, and I can pretty much guarantee that you'd have people complaining about that as well (I would likely be one of them).
 
Riamus said:
Unless they make it so both are fully in the game and you can choose which option to use in the game settings (unlikely and not worth it), you can't really have both at the same time. You can have a compromise - something like magazines to unlock something and then LBD to improve it - but you can't really do LBD for everything and also have magazines. They conflict with one another if you're talking about the max LBD option versus magazines. Trying to do both would be a mess, and I can pretty much guarantee that you'd have people complaining about that as well (I would likely be one of them).
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I wouldn't call that a compromise. I'd call it well thought through. It obviously wouldn't make sense to develop a game two completely different ways and provide an option of which completely different game to play, but as you note, that's in no way necessary. I've read all the comments about how it might best be implemented. Whether that would satisfy anyone is an open question.
 
Kyoji said:
I didn't say that. I said that if the developers release content that doesn't resonate with the fans then they should listen and make changes.
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And I disagree with that. They shouldn't do that automatically.
I trust devs that have their own vision of their game, not someone who changes their ideas based on how the wind blows.

If I buy a game in EA is because I like the dev's vision and chosen implementation of their vision.
If mid-development they start "listening" to the Mob and overturn their vision to please the masses, then I'll just say the goodbye and leave.
 
I think their best option would be to formally announce that they are going to stay the course with the current progression mechanic for this game but that they are looking into hybrid LBD/Skillpoint/Schematic options for their next game. That might mollify a good portion of the disappointed faction. If they at least have that to look forward to in a future 7 Days-like sequel, they won't be quite so adamant about getting it for this game.
 
Roland said:
I think their best option would be to formally announce that they are going to stay the course with the current progression mechanic for this game but that they are looking into hybrid LBD/Skillpoint/Schematic options for their next game. That might mollify a good portion of the disappointed faction. If they at least have that to look forward to in a future 7 Days-like sequel, they won't be quite so adamant about getting it for this game.
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Wait, a sequel to 7dtd? Do you know anything we can talk about?
 
InfiniteWarrior said:
I wouldn't call that a compromise. I'd call it well thought through. It obviously wouldn't make sense to develop a game two completely different ways and provide an option of which completely different game to play, but as you note, that's in no way necessary. I've read all the comments about how it might best be implemented. Whether that would satisfy anyone is an open question.
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A compromise two separate ideas or views or whatever being mixed together into something that has parts of what each group wants instead of being only focused on one idea or the other. An example of a compromise is if someone owes you $1000 and you want that money and they don't want to give it to you, you could compromise and say they can give you half of it if they do something for you such as help to fix something or whatever. Neither gets what they really want, but they reach a compromise that has benefits for both. Doing only part of LBD while still using magazines for other parts is a compromise. It lets you have some LBD and some magazines, but not full LBD or full magazines. That is a compromise.

an agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions.
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The concessions would be that LBD would not be used for X (crafting, for example) and magazines would not by used for Y (fighting skills, for example). Those may not be the best examples because magazines are only used for crafting as it is, but they are clear examples of concessions. Any concessions are enough to mean that it's a compromise.
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grz__ said:
Wait, a sequel to 7dtd? Do you know anything we can talk about?
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They have mentioned this many times over the years. It is not what they are making next. Their next game will not be 7D2D 2. However, they still would like to make a sequel. Considering the time it takes for them to make games, it'll likely not be released for 20+ years, so I wouldn't worry too much about it yet. ;)
 
Riamus said:
They have mentioned this many times over the years. It is not what they are making next. Their next game will not be 7D2D 2. However, they still would like to make a sequel. Considering the time it takes for them to make games, it'll likely not be released for 20+ years, so I wouldn't worry too much about it yet. ;)
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So it's just an idea, nothing certain. For a moment I had gotten my hopes up.😔
 
RipClaw said:
Perhaps 7D2D 2 will be played on the holodeck. ;)
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Now, THAT could be FUN! Just don't tell the computer to make it hard enough that Data couldn't survive. :D

grz__ said:
So it's just an idea, nothing certain. For a moment I had gotten my hopes up.😔
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I'm not sure about it not being certain or that it's only an idea. They may have done at least some preliminary work on it. Or maybe not. I don't know. But they have said it isn't what they are working on next. And I think that is a good thing. I wouldn't mind seeing a sequel, but I think they are kind of at the burned out point with 7 Days to Die right now and doing a different game could help them to refocus so that when they do make a sequel, it will be even better.
 
Riamus said:
They have mentioned this many times over the years. It is not what they are making next. Their next game will not be 7D2D 2. However, they still would like to make a sequel. Considering the time it takes for them to make games, it'll likely not be released for 20+ years, so I wouldn't worry too much about it yet.
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Their next game isn’t going to be 7 Days to Die 2 but if they stick with what they’re good at and wanting to use the systems they’ve built, their next game could still be one that involves some kind of character progression.

I doubt they’re going to switch gears and do something totally different like Notch did in his follow up to Minecraft. 🤮
 
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