PC V2.0 Storms Brewing Dev Diary

Disagree it's realistic that's it
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I wouldn't mind if buckets had a use like that but i think changing water would be good for the game by adding more systems with it. Prbuilt did a good video on it like levels of contamination and Radation. But still making the dew collector useful for clean water

Personally I would make water a resource that needs a vessel to carry and deposit it for whatever use you need kinda like ARK with how beer liquid cant be picked up without a jar

Looting through say sinks or coffee pots could have water and you need a vessel to carry it. Plus add the jars breaking and noncraftable until late game and I think it would make people happy

There's literally nothing about having to craft and carry around hundreds of glass jars -- just to hold water -- that is even remotely realistic. Nothing.

I could carry water around in a freaking plastic bag if I wanted to!
 
Imo, water is a non issue after day 1 or 2, if it even is at any point.
By day 20, you should have at least 5 dew collectors with accessories, producing at least 30 bottles of clean water every day.
Drinks are cheap and so is glue at traders, so you don't even need to bother if you don't want to.
You get most everything in loot anyway, so you don't need to craft that much anymore.

Honestly, I feel like jars are pretty anecdotic and more something over which some people crystallize their frustration.
The game has slowly changed over time, especially after A16.
A16 had plenty of flaws but some players miss it, 2.0 has plenty of qualities but some players don't enjoy it as much.
I think it's more because it had a very different "vibe" overall than the current version.

To me, every alpha now brings a good game or two but that's it.
It has more to do with the questing system, the dungeons, the linear progression and the overall simplification for me (LBD, wellness, farming, parts, etc.).
It just feels like I'm replaying the same game every time.
The game is way more appealing to new players though, so I understand the choices and by now, I got my money's worth over and over again so I'm very thankful to the Fun Pimps.
 
Disagree it's realistic that's it
Post automatically merged:


I wouldn't mind if buckets had a use like that but i think changing water would be good for the game by adding more systems with it. Prbuilt did a good video on it like levels of contamination and Radation. But still making the dew collector useful for clean water

Personally I would make water a resource that needs a vessel to carry and deposit it for whatever use you need kinda like ARK with how beer liquid cant be picked up without a jar

Looting through say sinks or coffee pots could have water and you need a vessel to carry it. Plus add the jars breaking and noncraftable until late game and I think it would make people happy
saw that vid...agree that it is a much more complete idea.

the biggest advantage I see to my idea is that it checks the boxes: ability to gather water in nature - improvements to the dew collector - it is simpler and faster to implement. lol
 
Jars and water collection is the hot topic, so I'd like to give my personal take. Bring back jars, gate crafting them with crucible, make them rare loot- unless water is made more rare in pois in favor of more jars, that's fine too. I'd like to see sand, coal, (maybe nitrate) to used to make water drinkable- Maybe this can be done at a cooking fire with pot, or maybe rework the first station into a water purifier and move the dew collector up the workstation chain for people that prefer to set up base away from water.
Nerf glue through bone cost.

I've liked dew collectors from a balance/pacing standpoint, but the idea of '- Hey, there's water, I'm going to scoop some up' comes waaay more naturally.

In other news
I joined in late in A15, grew to love it in A16.. I don't miss the feeling of 'it's day 14 and I still can't craft a forge' And LBD had clear flaws when you could run around in the desert, punching aloe, and dive into cactuses to boost cardio, medical and armor all at the same time, then spam craft axes by night.. but the game felt slower back then, and I feel that's sorely missed these days.

Dropper bases were nerfed too hard, A year or so ago, with buddies I carved out some giant 50x50 type hole to bedrock, turned it into a concrete cube, extended the top layer like 20 blocks in every direction with a slippery toilet-bowl-esque in the middle that abruptly-ended to drop them into the death-arena.. It worked for like 5 zombies All the others started digging all around the cube and swiss cheesed the landscape into oblivion, beating in the dirt all night. Never did fight them, they just despawned.
It was a lot of work and I wish the work had been rewarded with a couple dozen broken legs and some fall damage.. and if you put a lot of time and planning and concrete in your base.. Maybe it's okay for zombies to path to the fall hole rather than spend 8-10 game-hours (60min days) just trying to make a new path.

Oh. Nerf traders/nerf questing. If new people struggle, they can turn loot up -or maybe 150% can be the new default, sorta like when zombie rage came out.

Mix in a few more wondering sleepers here and there- I love 'em.
----
At the end of the day, as much as I want these kinds of things as the base game, the expectation keeps shifting towards 'there will be a mod for it' .. Which is great. Y'know, I guess.
 
Imo, water is a non issue after day 1 or 2, if it even is at any point.
By day 20, you should have at least 5 dew collectors with accessories, producing at least 30 bottles of clean water every day.
Drinks are cheap and so is glue at traders, so you don't even need to bother if you don't want to.
You get most everything in loot anyway, so you don't need to craft that much anymore.

Honestly, I feel like jars are pretty anecdotic and more something over which some people crystallize their frustration.

This is why I've long thought that the devs should have increased the water-cost of crafting and farming instead of decreasing (or trying to decrease) our ability to collect water. It is MUCH easier to believably (dare I say realistically) tweak the numbers towards water consumption, rather than trying to control water acquisition.

In other words, if they wanted water to be more of a "survival" thing, instead of saying we can't gather water in a freaking bucket anymore, they could have simple dialed up how much water we need for survival. I hate to criticize too harshly, but what TFP did regarding water was so freaking amateur-hour.

Let people gather water in the ways one would expect in a survival game!! If you want water to be more important to survival, then increase the amount we need to survive/craft without stomping all over immersion & environmental interaction! 😤
 
This is why I've long thought that the devs should have increased the water-cost of crafting and farming instead of decreasing (or trying to decrease) our ability to collect water. It is MUCH easier to believably (dare I say realistically) tweak the numbers towards water consumption, rather than trying to control water acquisition.

In other words, if they wanted water to be more of a "survival" thing, instead of saying we can't gather water in a freaking bucket anymore, they could have simple dialed up how much water we need for survival. I hate to criticize too harshly, but what TFP did regarding water was so freaking amateur-hour.

Let people gather water in the ways one would expect in a survival game!! If you want water to be more important to survival, then increase the amount we need to survive/craft without stomping all over immersion & environmental interaction! 😤
I agree with this!
 
This is why I've long thought that the devs should have increased the water-cost of crafting and farming instead of decreasing (or trying to decrease) our ability to collect water. It is MUCH easier to believably (dare I say realistically) tweak the numbers towards water consumption, rather than trying to control water acquisition.

In other words, if they wanted water to be more of a "survival" thing, instead of saying we can't gather water in a freaking bucket anymore, they could have simple dialed up how much water we need for survival. I hate to criticize too harshly, but what TFP did regarding water was so freaking amateur-hour.

Let people gather water in the ways one would expect in a survival game!! If you want water to be more important to survival, then increase the amount we need to survive/craft without stomping all over immersion & environmental interaction! 😤

I don't know why people believe this game is more survival than anything else. I don't understand the realism arguments either. They kickstarted with "basic survival" yet people think it's a main theme. Was it advertising or something?

If you can collect water conveniently, gather food easily, build a shelter or take over a POI, store resources and make defences, then you aren't surviving, you're just living. If you're not concerned about trying to get your next meal, drink, or a safe place to live then i can hardly call that survival. For me it's always been about surviving the zombies more than anything else.

I understand that people want common sense, to be able to walk up to a river and bring home water. For the sake of the video games balance however, i see why it's a problem to harvest all the water you want. They're trying to make each item have value, and that merit is underappreciated. When you gather rocks, it breaks and goes away. When you harvest furniture, scrap, salvage random objects, they all go away. The amount you get is limited, and you have to travel around to find more. Gathering unlimited water from a huge source like a river (or a single, movable water block) is obscene to try and balance. Making recipes cost more water would look ridiculous, like needing 10 water for one red tea. How is that more immersive? Make every jar only give +5 thirst so you end up chugging dozens a jars a day? Or should they make it tedious by having a long animation to fill a single jar? I'm more than okay with the current system if it makes water more valuable, and similar to all other loot.

The terms immersion and environmental interaction here is exaggeration. How many of you actually go to rivers to fill up jars of water to take home? I've watched tons of survival shows and i've never seen anyone survive using glass jars. Water is also heavy, carrying a few jars would suck let alone dozens, plus the mounds of stuff in the backpack. I can't fathom how anyone is immersed by this. Environmental interaction by walking up to a ditch and shlorping tons of water is giving it way too much credit. It's like pushing microwave buttons and calling it "Culinary Interaction" Raise your bar a bit.


Some survival games in my library:

Darkwood: No water.
Dying Light: Slurp sinks to get some health?
Kenshi: No thirst mechanic.
Palworld: No thirst mechanic.
Project Zomboid: Realistic water gathering and storage mechanics. Has always focused on realism unlike 7DTD.
Raft: Fill a cup with water then cook it. Somehow cooking salt water in a PLASTIC cup, super immersive. Eventually you get some cool water pump/piping mechanics and storage.
Rimworld: No water drinking mechanics.
Sons of the Forest: You can drink straight from water but it may make you sick. You can find and carry ONE large pot to manually collect water, then you make a fire to cook or just boil water. You can eventually make a canteen to hold some water. Soda cans around the island help with thirst. What you can carry and store is very limited when it comes to normal water, though soda can be hoarded too. There's also a weird turtle shell rain collector thing. Solid mechanics, but 7DTD is very different.

Subnautica: Grab bladderfish and magically (with advanced technology) zap it into a water bottle. Eventually use bleach to make better water. Water filtration machine to generate water (much like a dew collector)

Valheim: No thirst mechanics, other than getting crunk on brews.

I don't know what you guys expect in a survival game, or maybe you've played different ones than i have. I don't immediately think that i can just gather water forever from wherever. It's surprising when a "survival" game has any thirst mechanics at all. I think 7DTD's current water mechanics are reasonable and consistent with the game itself. TFP may yet add ways to harvest water if they can figure out how to keep it balanced. In my opinion, making sure items/resources have real value is more important than subjective "immersion" or environmental interaction in the game where literally everything is breakable/interactable.
 
I don't know why people believe this game is more survival than anything else. I don't understand the realism arguments either. They kickstarted with "basic survival" yet people think it's a main theme. Was it advertising or something?

If you can collect water conveniently, gather food easily, build a shelter or take over a POI, store resources and make defences, then you aren't surviving, you're just living. If you're not concerned about trying to get your next meal, drink, or a safe place to live then i can hardly call that survival. For me it's always been about surviving the zombies more than anything else.

I understand that people want common sense, to be able to walk up to a river and bring home water. For the sake of the video games balance however, i see why it's a problem to harvest all the water you want. They're trying to make each item have value, and that merit is underappreciated. When you gather rocks, it breaks and goes away. When you harvest furniture, scrap, salvage random objects, they all go away. The amount you get is limited, and you have to travel around to find more. Gathering unlimited water from a huge source like a river (or a single, movable water block) is obscene to try and balance. Making recipes cost more water would look ridiculous, like needing 10 water for one red tea. How is that more immersive? Make every jar only give +5 thirst so you end up chugging dozens a jars a day? Or should they make it tedious by having a long animation to fill a single jar? I'm more than okay with the current system if it makes water more valuable, and similar to all other loot.

The terms immersion and environmental interaction here is exaggeration. How many of you actually go to rivers to fill up jars of water to take home? I've watched tons of survival shows and i've never seen anyone survive using glass jars. Water is also heavy, carrying a few jars would suck let alone dozens, plus the mounds of stuff in the backpack. I can't fathom how anyone is immersed by this. Environmental interaction by walking up to a ditch and shlorping tons of water is giving it way too much credit. It's like pushing microwave buttons and calling it "Culinary Interaction" Raise your bar a bit.


Some survival games in my library:

Darkwood: No water.
Dying Light: Slurp sinks to get some health?
Kenshi: No thirst mechanic.
Palworld: No thirst mechanic.
Project Zomboid: Realistic water gathering and storage mechanics. Has always focused on realism unlike 7DTD.
Raft: Fill a cup with water then cook it. Somehow cooking salt water in a PLASTIC cup, super immersive. Eventually you get some cool water pump/piping mechanics and storage.
Rimworld: No water drinking mechanics.
Sons of the Forest: You can drink straight from water but it may make you sick. You can find and carry ONE large pot to manually collect water, then you make a fire to cook or just boil water. You can eventually make a canteen to hold some water. Soda cans around the island help with thirst. What you can carry and store is very limited when it comes to normal water, though soda can be hoarded too. There's also a weird turtle shell rain collector thing. Solid mechanics, but 7DTD is very different.

Subnautica: Grab bladderfish and magically (with advanced technology) zap it into a water bottle. Eventually use bleach to make better water. Water filtration machine to generate water (much like a dew collector)

Valheim: No thirst mechanics, other than getting crunk on brews.

I don't know what you guys expect in a survival game, or maybe you've played different ones than i have. I don't immediately think that i can just gather water forever from wherever. It's surprising when a "survival" game has any thirst mechanics at all. I think 7DTD's current water mechanics are reasonable and consistent with the game itself. TFP may yet add ways to harvest water if they can figure out how to keep it balanced. In my opinion, making sure items/resources have real value is more important than subjective "immersion" or environmental interaction in the game where literally everything is breakable/interactable.

I get it -- you don't care about realism or immersion. Well, I do care. And no amount of you not caring is going to change the fact that I do care.

Also, the fact that you mentioned Palworld in a discussion about survival games makes me question the worth of anything else you might have to say. Half the games you mentioned are adventure or action games, not Survival. I mean, I love Dying Light, but it's about as much of a survival game as Far Cry 4 or 5. The fact that you mentioned Kenshi but not The Long Dark, or Darkwood but not This War of Mine, or Rimworld but not Neoscavenger speaks volumes.

We don't play the same kinds of games, clearly.
 
Hello @faatal
Can you talk a little about what's coming in 2.3 EXP (possibly released in the next few weeks???)

I would much prefer to read about that then the constant hundreds of messages going back and forth about getting the jars back or getting back to an earlier version of the game. Maybe this is why we don't see you here much at all these days? If it is then, I feel the same way... Getting sick of it. I understand why Madmole left (plus you guys are so very busy also). (y)
 
I get it -- you don't care about realism or immersion. Well, I do care. And no amount of you not caring is going to change the fact that I do care.

Also, the fact that you mentioned Palworld in a discussion about survival games makes me question the worth of anything else you might have to say. Half the games you mentioned are adventure or action games, not Survival. I mean, I love Dying Light, but it's about as much of a survival game as Far Cry 4 or 5. The fact that you mentioned Kenshi but not The Long Dark, or Darkwood but not This War of Mine, or Rimworld but not Neoscavenger speaks volumes.

We don't play the same kinds of games, clearly.
Out of those, I've only played Dying Light (not what I'd call survival either) and This War of Mine. As far as This War of Mine, I got tired of the survival mechanics very quickly. Survival resources (food, drink, sleep) are designed to be too limited in availability. At least as far as I've gotten in it before getting tired of it (a couple of weeks). I've tried twice to get into that game, but I just can't get any further than that. Always struggling to have food or water and having to deal with exhaustion whenever you want to do anything productive at night was just not any fun for me. I get that some people like that constant struggle, but for me it just felt like a grind and it couldn't keep me interested. It is too bad because the game was generally interesting and I might have played longer if that was done differently.

I think that's the big issue with survival games and why they are more of a niche genre. You have some who like that kind of game, but a lot of people are like me. We just want to play a game for fun without having to constantly struggle to get basic needs met (food, water, sleep, etc.). It's one thing when it can be overcome pretty quickly or when you have a long amount of time after eating or drinking something before you have to do so again, but most true survival games take it to more of an extreme. And that turns off a lot of people. If you want your game to appeal to the largest audience, you don't really want to make a true survival game. It's better to limit such things so they aren't a grind or to remove them altogether. That sucks for people who want true survival games, but they are unfortunately a relatively small percentage of total players. In fact, those who like true survival games are probably much smaller than those who like PVP (my guess only), which is saying something. ;)
 
Always struggling to have food or water and having to deal with exhaustion whenever you want to do anything productive at night was just not any fun for me.

You literally just described survival. If it doesn't involve struggle and hardship, then it isn't survival. I mean, that's like taking a Souls-like and removing the soul-crushing difficulty. That's like taking The Oregon Trail and removing death-by-dysentery.


I think that's the big issue with survival games and why they are more of a niche genre. You have some who like that kind of game, but a lot of people are like me. We just want to play a game for fun without having to constantly struggle to get basic needs met (food, water, sleep, etc.). It's one thing when it can be overcome pretty quickly or when you have a long amount of time after eating or drinking something before you have to do so again, but most true survival games take it to more of an extreme. And that turns off a lot of people. If you want your game to appeal to the largest audience, you don't really want to make a true survival game. It's better to limit such things so they aren't a grind or to remove them altogether. That sucks for people who want true survival games, but they are unfortunately a relatively small percentage of total players. In fact, those who like true survival games are probably much smaller than those who like PVP (my guess only), which is saying something. ;)

Maybe, maybe not. I absolutely loved This War of Mine. It's a critically-acclaimed game AND sold 4.5 million copies. So clearly there are a lot of gamers who appreciate that kind of gameplay. The Long Dark sold 5 million copies, and nearly all of its game mechanics would be instant turn-offs for you. Green Hell sold 8 million copies and hooo boy that one's a brutal ride. I mean, I could go on. I've been playing survival games since the original Outdoor Survival board game by Avalon Hill.

This isn't the first time I've had to point out that *I* don't go around critiquing casual gamers for what they want to play. At least, not until someone like Noxom up there directly responds to me, trying to convince me that "realism sucks dude." Because I don't care if you prefer more relaxed or casual games.

I don't post about other people's playstyles. Ever. I will never understand why casual gamers are so hell bent on convincing non-casuals that we are somehow "wrong" about what we like. And yes, there are plenty of harcore gamers who are just as bad. A hardcore ■■■■■■■ is just as bad as a casual ■■■■■■■ in my book. 🫏
 
Ok guys, now that everyone knows your personal preferences, let's go back to 7D2D 2.x please.
The beauty of this game is that TFP have built it from the ground up with modding in mind.

As long as there'll be great modders out there leveraging on that, every play style and preference will be more or less covered.
Vanilla is a different matter altogether in my opinion.

Vanilla should be the developer's domain.
The version of the game that the devs want you to play "as intended" by them.

For that reason I don't think our discussion, the community in general, or even polls, will be able to steer the direction too far from what the game is right now. On top of that, as some among you know better than me, there are costs and programming effort issues.

If you want to suggest a possible solution, I think it should be something that doesn't revolutionize the current game mechanics.
More like a "nudge" in what you think is the "right" direction.
Otherwise we go into modding territory.

Anyway, I think everyone, from his/her own perspective has given interesting suggestions and points of view.

Side note: even programmers have to take some vacation time now and then, you know? ;)
 
You literally just described survival. If it doesn't involve struggle and hardship, then it isn't survival. I mean, that's like taking a Souls-like and removing the soul-crushing difficulty.
So obviously you love hard survival games. Nothing wrong with that. 7d2d is not a hard realism survival game, and there is nothing wrong with that. It's just not what you want it to be.

The survival elements are light. The main thing they want you to survive is the zombies. Food, water and shelter are meant to be difficult for about a day to a week, depending on your playstyle and difficulty.

If you are expecting more, then you need to find a mod that does more.
 
So obviously you love hard survival games. Nothing wrong with that. 7d2d is not a hard realism survival game, and there is nothing wrong with that. It's just not what you want it to be.

The survival elements are light. The main thing they want you to survive is the zombies. Food, water and shelter are meant to be difficult for about a day to a week, depending on your playstyle and difficulty.

If you are expecting more, then you need to find a mod that does more.
The problem is that some of those light survival elements were cut and replaced by nothing, for example, wellness, temperature, for me it is fine that 7D is not a survival simulator, it never was, the problem is that the little it had, it has lost, right now survival is nonexistent, I know they are developing things in this aspect now, I only mention it because it is one of the most frequent complaints.
 
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