MaxTunnerX
Refugee
You mean the biggest change in this version aka not a minor thing? Kinda missed your shot there.You mean like how biome progression and storms don't have options? Oh, wait, that's right -- they are optional. Imagine that.
Weapon Repair Degradation – Encourage Arsenal Variety
- Thread starter Niko909
- Start date
EvilPolygons
Survivor
That's funny, because so many of the complaints concerning storms and biome progression are that they are so minor and meaningless that TFP had no business taking a year to get them in game. You people really need to get your arguments straight. So which is it -- are storms a minor feature that adds nothing meaningful to the game or are they a major feature that makes massive changes, requiring an Options toggle?
Pick a lane FFS.
All the suggestions voiced by the author of the post are in Conan Exiles. But somehow I don't see Conan at least in the Steam Top 100. And this game is in 24th place by the number of players.
EvilPolygons
Survivor
So an appeal to popularity fallacy? Really? By that logic, 7DTD should strive to be more like Palworld, because it's even more popular.
I haven't played Conan Exiles or Fortnite, and I'm not trying to copy any specific game. I just want to see 7DTD grow and evolve. I even calculated a durability model based on a new weapon being able to fire around 3000 shots before breaking – just as a small addition to improve depth, not to ruin anything.
YourMirror
Survivor
There is a (good) mod already. Why not just use that and be happy? Little bit of effort and you wont need an option in vanilla for it.
EvilPolygons
Survivor
Zilox's mod works a lot better, to be honest. Every time you do a repair, there is a percentage chance that the weapon will lose one quality level. This can reduce them all the way down to QL1, I believe.
But weapons never actually "break" or become permanently unusable. There's simply no need for it. Once a weapon gets down to QL 3 or 4, people generally replace it with another weapon that they've looted or crafted. The idea is to create churn, so that crafting and/or scavenging is useful all the way to end game.
EvilPolygons
Survivor
For the same reason that people want temperature returned to the game. By your logic, there's no need for TFP to bring temperature back (even though they said they're working on it) because there are at least 2 mods on the Nexus that reintegrate temperature and wetness into v2.x. Like, right now.
I'm pretty sure there are features YOU would like to see added to vanilla 7DTD that are currently part of this or that mod. So, by your own argument, things that YOU might want in the game should never be added because "there's a mod already."
Critical thinking, bro.
The Issue:
Right now, once players unlock a superior weapon (like the tactical assault rifle), they tend to use it exclusively. Since repairs are cheap and fully restore the weapon with no penalties, there's little incentive to rotate or maintain a varied arsenal. You just keep using your "best gun" forever.
To comabt this issue I use Delete all on death. It makes it so its a good idea to keep backups or have your crafting skill serve as a baseline replacement of all your weapons and armor. Of course you have to set your settings (difficulty and zombie speeds) high enough that you actually die occationally.
Another idea similar to your degredation method is to just have weapons and armor degrade by 1 tier level every time they are repaired. Dunno whether I would make a tier 1 always stay a tier 1 or make it unrepairable and have to be scrapped for parts. If they did this they would also have to lower cost and crafting parts needed to buy / make these as we would go through them a lot faster.
Riamus
Hunter
I wouldn't like having item degradation in this game. It is fine in a game where you are constantly finding new and better equipment, but having to continually replace the exact same T3 Q6 weapon would not add enjoyment to the game. It just forces you to constantly look for stuff to keep making the same thing over and over again.
YourMirror
Survivor
There are no features I want added to vanilla. Everything i need is available via mods. So im not going to ask to add those to vanilla. Why would i? I already have those features. Be it temperature, lbd, weapon degradation, helldemons or whatever. If the OP likes it that way he should just use the mod. Why ask TFP to bring back a long gone mechanic that is not coming back? Critical enough for me.
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MaxTunnerX
Refugee
What on Earth are you talking about? Ive never said a thing about the weather system or biome progression. Go talk to whoever you have in mind and not to me. Also ROFLMAO for saying "you people", like whos that supposed to be? You mean the hundreds of people dissapointed by hundreds of different things? Besides, the name of the update is "storm is brewing" so its officially and technically not a minor thing. Case closed.
EvilPolygons
Survivor
Except it does add enjoyment to the game. Otherwise I wouldn't be using Zilox's Item Degradation mod.
EvilPolygons
Survivor
So does it bother you that the devs are bringing temperature back? It's already been mentioned on Discord and here. You've just made it clear that you do not want temperature brought back as a feature (you literally just wrote that, above), but TFP seems to be planning on doing that anyway.
Also, I'm not saying it's in the works or anything, but LazMan recently mentioned that he'd love to see Item Degradation make a comeback possibly as an option.
So...will it make you angry when temperature is brought back? Again, you've made it clear that you want nothing else added to the game. But the developers seem to have plans for adding all kinds of stuff to 7DTD over the next year or so. Bandits, for example -- which, by the way, are already avalible via the NPC mod.
It almost seems like the devs aren't taking your feelings into account, what with all these things they're talking about adding to your game. lol. How dare they!
WarMongerian
Refugee
First, I want to go on record saying I am opposed to this across the board nerf being applied to ALL weapons.
Any advanced weapon, like an assault rifle or machine gun, with many small, moving parts, that have to be maintained by proper maintenance & replacement parts, is subject to natural degradation.
A proper system of weapon maintenance is possible with an intact supply >>> production system in place and operational, but not after the fall of civilization.
The above post points out that a rugged, quality weapon, if designed for long term durability, can serve for some time.
In my own, personal experience, I encountered M2 Machine guns that were older than me, and were still in active military service, while at the same time, newer weapons, which were developed later on, during a much intense less time of conflict, wore out and needed replacing, even with an intact supply train, and on going production.
In a zombie apocalypse scenario, we do not have an intact production >>> supply train.
This would apply to all arms and ammunition, either being handcrafted or scavenged, but with a much more severe impact on the more complicated weapons (like an automatic weapon), while, at the other end, things like a Machete/Spear would be so much less affected as to be exempt from such a degraduation system.
If any such system were to be contemplated, I would hope that TFP would do some research, and impose such a system on firearms only, rather than on "All weapons, even those that do not contain many moving parts", as that would end up with a very lopsided and nonsensical system.
Back in the day, I served in the 101st, and part of that time, I was the assistant armorer.
This brings back memories. During a training exercise called an 'Alert', we had to practice rapidly moving our arms and ammunition stockpiles on trucks. While we were in the middle of one such exercise, I was alone in the arms room (the armorer was home on leave), and I was trying to rapidly move all our weapons to the waiting line at the gated entrance to the arms room, I remember grabbing a pair of .50 cal barrels, two in each hand, and trying to hand them off to the next two men in line, telling them, "one in each hand", but the first guy, who was a new arrival, tried to do what I was doing, and grab all four barrels, two to a hand, and promptly dropped the first two, and while he was staring at me with a look of, well, not understanding how ...the next guy, Mullins if I remember correctly, stepped up, and properly taking one barrel in each hand, casually said, "...Just because he can do that, doesn't mean that you can do that...". Anyway, just a trip down memory lane.
EvilPolygons
Survivor
I never served, but I've built and repaired my share of firearms. Fact is, guns break. They just do. Even AKs, despite what suxar seems to think. Like you said, the reason some old AK is still in service is because armorers have kept in in service. How many of them still have all-matching numbers? Not many, because they've been re-arsenalled multiple times over the decades.
Regardless, moving parts aren't a prerequisite for a tool or weapon wearing out. Clubs break, swords chip (and break), screwdrivers, hammers, shovels... Everything breaks eventually.
WarMongerian
Refugee
Another possibility, if folks wanted to have some such system, would be to have the game then include 1 or more, PoI, that have the pre-apocalypse factory machinery, and only by going there (and possibly needing to service this machinery, in place), using that machinery, one can fully restore weapons that other wise would have degraded beyond usability.
Another thing that the game doesn't really cover, and I'm not sure it should even try to cover, is weapon jams. Not just the simple, perform remedial action and you're good to go jam, but the kind where you have to take it back to base, and put it through a workbench to get it back up and running.
Might look something like this:
1) Simple Jam, just action it, and weapon is good to go.
2) More serious jam, need a repair kit, and your is now weapon good to go.
3) Severe Jam, have to take the weapon back to base, and use workbench. Degrade weapon upon completion at workbench. This can be repeated several times.
4) Take worn out weapon to the pre-apocalypse factory PoI, and fully restore them.
This seems like a lot of work to me, but for those that would want something like this added in, as an optional game setting, I could see this, but finding a new gun is not that hard, so...
EvilPolygons
Survivor
Weapon jams would be good. It's pretty silly that guns always function perfectly, even though all our ammo comes from trash piles or hand loading them from junk at a workbench.
Riamus
Hunter
Regardless of what kind of degradation you can see in weapons in real life, that takes time. I wouldn't consider a single save in this game to last more than 1-2 years if it was converted to real life. How many weapons degrade in that amount of time?
Also, remember that those saying that they degrade are also mentioning that with regular maintenance, they can last much longer. I would consider doing repairs to be regular maintenance. Degradation would mean you cannot use it anymore once reaching 0, no matter what repairs you do to it, including replacing parts. How quickly can that happen in really l real life to most weapons, where a weapon can't even be repaired anymore? It happens, but not often for something that isn't at least somewhat old.
I will say that certain melee weapons, such as those made with wood or stone, could break during use and replacing them could be much easier than repairing them. But for most weapons in the game, that just isn't going to be an issue. You certainly aren't going to degrade a steel club or steel spear to the point it can't be used anymore with some repairs/maintenance.
I get that people want a reason to keep finding or crafting weapons because you can get the best weapons pretty quickly in the game. But degradation isn't an answer I would want. If it is an option, go for it. Otherwise, I would prefer that we find some other option to make finding or crafting weapons last longer in the game.
Also, remember that those saying that they degrade are also mentioning that with regular maintenance, they can last much longer. I would consider doing repairs to be regular maintenance. Degradation would mean you cannot use it anymore once reaching 0, no matter what repairs you do to it, including replacing parts. How quickly can that happen in really l real life to most weapons, where a weapon can't even be repaired anymore? It happens, but not often for something that isn't at least somewhat old.
I will say that certain melee weapons, such as those made with wood or stone, could break during use and replacing them could be much easier than repairing them. But for most weapons in the game, that just isn't going to be an issue. You certainly aren't going to degrade a steel club or steel spear to the point it can't be used anymore with some repairs/maintenance.
I get that people want a reason to keep finding or crafting weapons because you can get the best weapons pretty quickly in the game. But degradation isn't an answer I would want. If it is an option, go for it. Otherwise, I would prefer that we find some other option to make finding or crafting weapons last longer in the game.
EvilPolygons
Survivor
Oh, it doesn't take years. It can happen in a matter of minutes. If you go out and mag dump an actual firearm like people tend to do in this game on horde night, then many guns will literally catch on fire as the plastic bits begin to melt and drip off. The barrel may start to warp. Rounds may stop feeding, chambering, extracting, or ejecting properly as the gun heats up hot enough to cook bacon on it. And then of course there's the fouling caused by quickly firing hundreds of rounds of dirty post-apocalyptic ammo.
Extremely high-end Gucci guns are usually more resistant to wear and tear and abuse. But any gun you build in the post-apocalypse out of an old shovel, pipe fittings, and a roll of duct tape is definitely not going to be.
The reason there are so many gunsmiths in this country is because guns break. They break a LOT.