PC Biome Progression is Poorly Designed.

J

JuniperSeed

Refugee
Biome progression is pretty terrible in this iteration. If you haven't began a play-through on the new update, I highly suggest disabling it.

The tie-in to the challenges system is a great idea. The sad part is the design of the challenges. They're the most lazy and boring set of challenges, to be repeated four times over.

Every single biome is exactly the same:
  • Spend X amount of time in said biome
  • Kill X amount of specific zombie types in said biome
  • Loot X amount of containers in said biome
  • Harvest X amount of plant in said biome
  • Harvest X amount of ore in said biome
  • Have completed the previous challenge set in the last biome
So... we now have a sandbox game that is linear. You have to complete biomes in the order they've been programmed to be done in. Sure, you could do all of the quests aside from completing the previous biome's challenge, but there's no incentive to do so. Limiting the loot is the main motivator to visiting biomes and completing their challenges. The biome specific zombies help flesh out the aesthetic and theme of each biome, but until there are mob-specific drops, they give no reason to visit. Making ores have a primary biome, but still being able to be acquired elsewhere also gives no reason to visit. Traders don't really count, in my opinion. They may be seated in certain biomes, but going to a trader does not compel the player to actually go out and explore the biome their station is in.

And all of this push to force players to engage with the different biomes, only to make them be there for 15-30 minutes? No challenges that are biome specific. No thematic challenges for each biome, no high-end challenges that unlock AFTER getting a biome badge. It's so unfathomably lazy and narrow-minded. The challenges lack so much creativity and a devoid of... challenge!

The first part of the game now feels like a chore. It feels robotic. Go to X biome, repeat the same nonsense challenges as the last biome, get your badge, and repeat. Complete all the biomes and then go back to your survival sandbox game.

My group and I thought we'd be living more nomadically, and having to make a starter base/horde base, and then either move to the next biome or make more and more involved outposts/horde bases. There's not even a challenge to do horde nights/blood moons in the different biomes. That's wild, to me. I was expecting to have to find gear/loot in a biome that allowed me to progress to the next biome, and with each biome, have to spend more and more time until finally being able to move into the wasteland for a serious amount of time, like 21 in-game days. All to finally be rewarded with being able to move anywhere and enjoy the rest of the play-through. Instead, we get this paper-thin biome/weather system that really offers nothing, but gates a lot.

It's a real shame.
 
I adore Biome Progression, but I agree that Biome Progression in it's current form leaves a lot to be desired and what I desire is more progression. The challenges need to be more biome specific and should increase in difficulty as you progress to the harder biomes. Our goal is to make it to the Wasteland for that sweet, sweet high loot stage which should feel more of an achievement than it does.

From what I've seen, most are not wanting to stay in the Desert or Snow Biome for more than they have to because of the Frost Claw and Plague Spitter spawns being too frequent, causing frustration. In my opinion their spawns need to be adjusted.

I love your suggestion for one of the challenges to be survive a horde night. Thst would force the player to build a horde base in every biome, meaning they have to spend, at the very least, a few days there. And gear specifically tied to biomes is another idea I can get behind. I know TFP hate the idea of gear being shared amongst friends, but I feel if they made certain gear tied to Biome Badges it would solve that problem, but that also means making Biome Badges harder to get.

I know they are working on making changes to Storms so hopefully we will see some come to Biome Progression too ^^
 
I am the opposite. I dislike biome progression generally speaking and am glad it can be disabled. It takes too much from the sandbox element of the game and gives nothing back in return. We already had loot bonuses in other biomes. If the developers want people to go to other biomes then make them more interesting. I find a game is almost always better by encouraging players to do things than forcing them.

The biome progression system has a few things I would like to see changed in general and then I have my own personal flavor description after:
  • Increase of loot cap once the Wasteland badge is obtained. I don't see a reason to artificially hinder play once people have progressed as requested by TFP. Once you make it to the Wasteland and finish the main story the biomes should all then be equally viable. I am fine with increased loot stages by zone as they were in 1.0 where the wasteland would give a better loot stage bonus compared to the forest as an example, but remove the caps.
  • Integrate the challenges into the questing system. The challenges system should be for tutorial purposes. The challenges could be progress quests that allow you find the required parts needed to build the specific item needed for that biome. Each biome should require 2-5 quests to build the item needed to advance to the next biome and should be spaced in between quests. I think there should be two ways to achieve the quest - either after doing "x" amount of other quests or after "x" amount of days have passed. I think both are important as the first allows you to quest push to get to the next biome faster while the other gives you access to the next area without needing to do a lot of quests if you do not enjoy questing as much. This gates how fast you transition a lot better than the challenges.
  • Remove badges and make the items things that make actual sense. Instead of a snow biome badge give the player a thermal suit and instead of a burnt forest biome badge give them a filtered mask. It could tie into my previous suggestion by needing to find the filter and the mask for a two part quest for the burnt forest biome and the snow biome could be a 4 part quest needing gloves, shirt, pants, feet to then be assembled into the singular suit that you could equip. In order to make these fit properly you should have a second character sheet tab with the same general layout that you could add the items to so you don't have to remove and add specific biome parts when you transition from one biome to another and can equip them all. For example the mask would be a face item, the thermal suit would be a chest item, etc.
  • Add a soft-cap to biomes. Instead of taking damage over time make each biome have their own personal struggle you would have to deal with instead. The old temperature system is a good example where you needed more food in snow biome and more water in the desert. You could expand on that and have the snow biome make you cold and unless you found a building to take refuge or a fire you would take DoT if you stayed outside for long periods of time without either. The desert could be similar in that you overheat in the sun and need shelter or water to cool down your temperature or you take DoT. You could have reduced stamina in the burnt forest as you would presumably need to conserve your breath with your vision becoming blurry after prolonged exposure needing to take refuge. No DoT needed for the burnt forest as it is only the second biome and I am fine with a DoT in the Wasteland but make it happen progressively. So to start your character would freeze and do a throw up animation and then after lets say an hour in the Wasteland your characters maximum HP drops by half (gradually resets upon leaving the zone) and then after 3 hours you take a DoT effect. In this way it makes it possible to scavenge in the biomes but at a cost and risk. Sounds like a lot but I don't think from a development standpoint it would take long to code and do the animations I think we are just used to how slow progress has become and forget the work developers in other games do with their systems.
  • Change smoothies. In general the idea of a smoothie fixing your ailments seems off. Instead you could add specific items more dedicated to each biome than a smoothie.

Even if someone doesn't agree with my suggestions on how to fix them specifically I hope we can reasonably agree that the current implementation could be better and encourage anyone with ideas to post them.
 
I agree with all of this.
Being artificially locked out of a biome takes some of the fun of exploring out. I’m glad we can turn it off. Early on when you have minimal weapons and armor, it was a rush and thrilling to sneak into the snow biome shotgun warehouse or police station and try to raid some better stuff.

And if biomes are locked…fine …but I agree make it more “realistic” and engaging. I love the idea of a wonder coat for the cold like they used to have …or a gas mask or coolant mods…something that makes sense in real life survival. Not sure about you but i wouldn’t rush into the north pole with a plastic badge and a couple smoothies. Love the game love the crew that used their amazing skills to give us this adventure but for as long as we waited for 2.0….this just seems like a letdown.
 
I'm not sure what to think of biome progression. I could see some appeal related to story progression. There is some appeal in dealing with the complications of rough environments. But in terms of a sandbox experience I'd probably turn it off.

I don't mind the achievements. I kind of regret the achievements go away if you turn off biome progression.

I kind of miss the temperature system and the faster use of drink/food when hot/cold. I would have seen it as complimentary to biome progression.
 
Kyoji said:
I am the opposite. I dislike biome progression generally speaking and am glad it can be disabled. It takes too much from the sandbox element of the game and gives nothing back in return. We already had loot bonuses in other biomes. If the developers want people to go to other biomes then make them more interesting. I find a game is almost always better by encouraging players to do things than forcing them.

The biome progression system has a few things I would like to see changed in general and then I have my own personal flavor description after:
  • Increase of loot cap once the Wasteland badge is obtained. I don't see a reason to artificially hinder play once people have progressed as requested by TFP. Once you make it to the Wasteland and finish the main story the biomes should all then be equally viable. I am fine with increased loot stages by zone as they were in 1.0 where the wasteland would give a better loot stage bonus compared to the forest as an example, but remove the caps.
  • Integrate the challenges into the questing system. The challenges system should be for tutorial purposes. The challenges could be progress quests that allow you find the required parts needed to build the specific item needed for that biome. Each biome should require 2-5 quests to build the item needed to advance to the next biome and should be spaced in between quests. I think there should be two ways to achieve the quest - either after doing "x" amount of other quests or after "x" amount of days have passed. I think both are important as the first allows you to quest push to get to the next biome faster while the other gives you access to the next area without needing to do a lot of quests if you do not enjoy questing as much. This gates how fast you transition a lot better than the challenges.
  • Remove badges and make the items things that make actual sense. Instead of a snow biome badge give the player a thermal suit and instead of a burnt forest biome badge give them a filtered mask. It could tie into my previous suggestion by needing to find the filter and the mask for a two part quest for the burnt forest biome and the snow biome could be a 4 part quest needing gloves, shirt, pants, feet to then be assembled into the singular suit that you could equip. In order to make these fit properly you should have a second character sheet tab with the same general layout that you could add the items to so you don't have to remove and add specific biome parts when you transition from one biome to another and can equip them all. For example the mask would be a face item, the thermal suit would be a chest item, etc.
  • Add a soft-cap to biomes. Instead of taking damage over time make each biome have their own personal struggle you would have to deal with instead. The old temperature system is a good example where you needed more food in snow biome and more water in the desert. You could expand on that and have the snow biome make you cold and unless you found a building to take refuge or a fire you would take DoT if you stayed outside for long periods of time without either. The desert could be similar in that you overheat in the sun and need shelter or water to cool down your temperature or you take DoT. You could have reduced stamina in the burnt forest as you would presumably need to conserve your breath with your vision becoming blurry after prolonged exposure needing to take refuge. No DoT needed for the burnt forest as it is only the second biome and I am fine with a DoT in the Wasteland but make it happen progressively. So to start your character would freeze and do a throw up animation and then after lets say an hour in the Wasteland your characters maximum HP drops by half (gradually resets upon leaving the zone) and then after 3 hours you take a DoT effect. In this way it makes it possible to scavenge in the biomes but at a cost and risk. Sounds like a lot but I don't think from a development standpoint it would take long to code and do the animations I think we are just used to how slow progress has become and forget the work developers in other games do with their systems.
  • Change smoothies. In general the idea of a smoothie fixing your ailments seems off. Instead you could add specific items more dedicated to each biome than a smoothie.

Even if someone doesn't agree with my suggestions on how to fix them specifically I hope we can reasonably agree that the current implementation could be better and encourage anyone with ideas to post them.
Click to expand...
A few minor thoughts...
  • The loot cap does increase some with every badge you earn. It doesn't increase to 100% in the lower biomes when wasteland badge is increased, though. I agree that if you've completed the wasteland badge, there's little reason to limit loot anymore.
  • Considering the number of people who avoid the traders, I don't think the badges should be part of the questing system. As it is, people still have to talk to traders to complete each badge. Making people have to keep going to traders would upset a lot of people and not really offer anything to make it worth doing that. The challenges can be set up to do basically anything a quest can do, but without the trader part. So if you want to change it to have you build something, you can still do that with challenges... it's the same as the smoothies, really.
  • This is something I have also said, though in reality, it's just an icon and a name. Change the burnt forest badge to a dust mask or something and call it that and it looks better, but does the same thing.
  • I don't particularly like the biome hazard mechanic, but if they are going to have it, I'm fine with taking damage if you aren't protected.
  • This is similar to the badges. I agree that they are pretty ridiculous, other than for the desert (or snow if you rename it to something hot). But in the end, it's an icon and a name. Changing them would look better but wouldn't change how anything actually works, so it's kind of minor.
Maybe once temperature gets added back, it will help to change how things work with the hazards.
 
Riamus said:
A few minor thoughts...
  • The loot cap does increase some with every badge you earn. It doesn't increase to 100% in the lower biomes when wasteland badge is increased, though. I agree that if you've completed the wasteland badge, there's little reason to limit loot anymore.
  • Considering the number of people who avoid the traders, I don't think the badges should be part of the questing system. As it is, people still have to talk to traders to complete each badge. Making people have to keep going to traders would upset a lot of people and not really offer anything to make it worth doing that. The challenges can be set up to do basically anything a quest can do, but without the trader part. So if you want to change it to have you build something, you can still do that with challenges... it's the same as the smoothies, really.
  • This is something I have also said, though in reality, it's just an icon and a name. Change the burnt forest badge to a dust mask or something and call it that and it looks better, but does the same thing.
  • I don't particularly like the biome hazard mechanic, but if they are going to have it, I'm fine with taking damage if you aren't protected.
  • This is similar to the badges. I agree that they are pretty ridiculous, other than for the desert (or snow if you rename it to something hot). But in the end, it's an icon and a name. Changing them would look better but wouldn't change how anything actually works, so it's kind of minor.
Maybe once temperature gets added back, it will help to change how things work with the hazards.
Click to expand...
Yes, the loot cap increases as you progress. My issue is the artificial cap placed even after you get the Wasteland badge. I am alright with the slight increase in loot stage from the biome itself, but it shouldn't be capped.

Good point on the trader issue, however, the issue with challenges is that they can be completed very quickly thus negating the point of the progression concept. You could make the challenges find "x" item(s), or make them take longer artificially by suggesting they kill "x" burnt zombies but then you have a lot of inconsistency. I figure the people who dislike traders are likely going to dislike progression as both are at odds with sandbox gameplay and as such I think quests are still the easiest way to implement the change. Also, smoothies are an abomination.

Immersion is good when applicable. Otherwise lets just make all the badges unicorns. The idea isn't that some of the changes are monumental but that it should be clearly better than the alternative.
 
zztong said:
I could see some appeal related to story progression. There is some appeal in dealing with the complications of rough environments. But in terms of a sandbox experience I'd probably turn it off
Click to expand...
ZZ you nailed it. That is what I perceived the storms brewing brouhaha as, from the first announcement. My way
of looking at it was that it was the introduction to the story. The only things left are the bandits, and pro and
antagonist. The on off switch is so it can be produced simultaneously and in parallel with the solidified
open world concept. Everyone wanted a story, and it was pledged to the kickstarters, this feels like a first
attempt at getting it going.

Other wise they would have had to make two versions of the game. I might have approached it a bit differently.
First I'd have left the title the same, good PR hype. But I would have included, "we are beginning to develop
the story to give our fans the complete experience as promised, please bear with us as there may be some hiccups
along the way, but we plan to give you a complete game and a rich story." "Turn it on, and get an Idea of some of
the new challenges you will be facing" "and dip your toe in the varied aspects, to experience and give feedback"
"Or turn it off, and continue with the open world experience you have come to love". Then maybe it wouldn't have
felt like a jarring change to some. From a story side, it is a fledgling attempt at introduction, just the presentation
got lost in translation.............. DISCLAIMER: I could be wrong.:giggle:

When I watched and watch the Dev streams, I treated and treat them as sales. Productive sales is hype, and a lot
of flourish. That is where it feels like a big disconnect came. This particular Open world and Story, are on the opposite
sides of the fence at the moment. Will it change. Dunno but we've all seen the official disclaimer.

The options included, and the feedback on using them, are kind of like telemetry. It was probably included in the
rwg version, because many have admitted that, they usually play Navezgane, on Alpha release then move on.

Open world play is just that, a free for all, story like the pic I posted a while back it full of cohersive mechanics, gate,
linear, movement, limited expansion quests that return to the linear aspect, progressive difficulty areas, minor bosses
and groups, and a main pro and antagonist. Reading every post since the release, on both sides, made me think this.
 
With the reintroduction of the biome loot stage bonuses, the caps need to be removed period, regardless of badges obtained. Our squad didn't even do the new mine/quarry T5s because they spawned in the forest. No one wants to do an infestation quest with g5/6 T3 gear only to get a g3 T2 item as reward. Kinda rather see the POI bonus ramped up while dialing back the biome bonus entirely. Heck, once I had the wasteland badge, I hit loot cap for the snow biome before the desert due to the biome bonus.

The whole biome progression thing is absolute ■■■ for co op multiplayer. Oh hey we can spawn in near a friend now (finally)...oh wait they're in a biome you need a badge for! Better start running for the pine forest...and no, I'm not making this up; it happened to someone who joined a couple (RL) days after we started the playthrough and were in the burnt forest

It was kinda telling that someone knew they had what would be an unpopular feature on hand with how much it was brought to attention that it could be turned off. It raised red flags for me, but I insisted (along with my group) that we would at least give it an honest try...and we all came to the same conclusion that the best way to change it is remove it entirely. If we do any future 2.x playthroughs, it will 100% be turned off.
 
Riamus said:
A few minor thoughts...
  • The loot cap does increase some with every badge you earn. It doesn't increase to 100% in the lower biomes when wasteland badge is increased, though. I agree that if you've completed the wasteland badge, there's little reason to limit loot anymore.
  • Considering the number of people who avoid the traders, I don't think the badges should be part of the questing system. As it is, people still have to talk to traders to complete each badge. Making people have to keep going to traders would upset a lot of people and not really offer anything to make it worth doing that. The challenges can be set up to do basically anything a quest can do, but without the trader part. So if you want to change it to have you build something, you can still do that with challenges... it's the same as the smoothies, really.
  • This is something I have also said, though in reality, it's just an icon and a name. Change the burnt forest badge to a dust mask or something and call it that and it looks better, but does the same thing.
  • I don't particularly like the biome hazard mechanic, but if they are going to have it, I'm fine with taking damage if you aren't protected.
  • This is similar to the badges. I agree that they are pretty ridiculous, other than for the desert (or snow if you rename it to something hot). But in the end, it's an icon and a name. Changing them would look better but wouldn't change how anything actually works, so it's kind of minor.
Maybe once temperature gets added back, it will help to change how things work with the hazards.
Click to expand...

It makes little sense to me why you have to talk to the trader to receive your badge anyway. In my opinion it would be more elegant of a solution to just receive it automatically.
 
I see the horde night as the closest approximation to an actual relentless zombie assault, in a zombie game mostly devoid of zombies.
 
Dark Sun said:
It makes little sense to me why you have to talk to the trader to receive your badge anyway. In my opinion it would be more elegant of a solution to just receive it automatically.
Click to expand...
Yeah... it's just how they set up the challenges. They all require it.
 
Dark Sun said:
It makes little sense to me why you have to talk to the trader to receive your badge anyway. In my opinion it would be more elegant of a solution to just receive it automatically.
Click to expand...
I think it is a limit to the system. trader's give quest rewards, and biome/badge progression is a quest reward.

I look at it like badges in pokemon personally lol.
 
First time posting, long time lurking.

Just adding my 2 cents to discussion. I like the biome progression for future story but like what Kyoji and others stated instead of badges having items for protection.

- Maybe add 4 new slots to characters to slot these items so they don't interfere with costume or a way to change look of item?
- Also have traders give out 4 special missions where you obtain the parts to assemble the needed item to progress (might go well with story line).
 
Kazgrel said:
It was kinda telling that someone knew they had what would be an unpopular feature on hand with how much it was brought to attention that it could be turned off.
Click to expand...

I feel this misstates the situation in order to imply incompetence or maliciousness. There are numerous features that can be turned on and off and it isn't because they knew it would be unpopular. I doubt any Developer wants to implement unpopular features. How about...

"It was kinda telling that they knew there are lots of play styles and that the newly introduced feature might not match up with things like server play."
 
Rotting said:
- Maybe add 4 new slots to characters to slot these items so they don't interfere with costume or a way to change look of item?
- Also have traders give out 4 special missions where you obtain the parts to assemble the needed item to progress (might go well with story line).
Click to expand...

I certainly agree that approach would prop up an immersive appearance. However, 4 new dedicated inventory slots is basically just a badge with extra steps required by the player to move the badge into the correct slot. Mechanically, the same as a badge.

Traders giving out a mission to make survival gear isn't an improvement over a challenge. To me, the only biome where I think the player would need special instruction would be the wasteland as the toxins they face there are outside of a normal experience.
 
Anything other than just a check list would be better. Even a simple clear quest with the biome badge as reward would be better than what we have now. That´s easily one of the most boring, unispired mechanics i have ever seen in a game. The only "challenge" is to watch your timer.

We need all biomes to be restricted somehow though. It´s normal for games that you can´t just walk into a endgame zone like the snow on day one like we could before this update. That was the one big reason that the game gets boring fast because there were basically no restrictions. Nothing stopped you from getting a ton of aloe from the desert on day 3.
 
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