PC Scrap Magazine Notes (crafting materials for Full Magazines) - have a place in Vanilla

[theFlu]

Wait, why are you spamming quests, if you don't like spamming quests?  Go do other stuff.

Who said I am? I'm already in Valheim again. No quests here to spam. Not necessarily the best advertisement for this particular title, but hey ho.

Time is one of the biggest resources you need to manage in this game, and running back and forth to the trader is not fun.

At what tier is than an issue? Tiers 1-3 are within about 500m, I run them on foot, in light armor, watered up, takes barely any time. Grab a few animals, eggs and stumps on the way.

And to carry the stuff back home, you'll still need several trips, so you'll just go back and forth then for that? Or you build your base at the loot pile?

Higher tiers, I'll run on mega crush if need be, but even those are usually within shouting distance, if you get them from the trader at the city they spawn in.

Time is one of the biggest resources you need to manage

And honestly, the game adapts to you. First week, you'll need to figure out a "horde base", that's done in a day, and the rest is up to you. There's no rush for ANYTHING in here.

 

[lord_ahriman]

i dunno about there being no worthwhile alternatives to do. I put thousands of hours of playtime in before quests were ever a thing and all those same activities still exist in the game. When I just do one quest per day my day is still pretty full of other objectives and tasks I want to accomplish. 

Couldn't agree more. I'm playing old style (traders, but no quests) and having tons of fun. Then I dropped loot to 50%, and it's a very nice addition because you will have a hard time getting some stuff like wrenches. People complain a lot, but a few setting changes can make the game a lot more challenging.

 

[zztong]

The game needs to offer a proper alternative. The setting isn't an alternative thing to do, it's just a minor nerf to the most lucrative option. The proper alternatives are things like "go hunting", which is unnecessary as you don't need food beyond what the POIs give you. Gameplay actions, not just arbitrary turn limits. You can make chess into a long game by limiting your turns into one per week, but that's not giving you alternative things to do. That's just making you invent alternative things to do.

This passage resonates with me, in particular the example of "go hunting." As he says, if POIs didn't give out food (because survivors had already eaten it) and didn't give out water (because survivors had already drank it, or it evaporated) then players would have to choose to gather those resource OR complete quests. As it stands now, you MUST loot houses even if you don't have a quest and/or won't gain any reputation with a vender.

I don't mind having the quest/reputation setting. I generally like options, but that setting isn't creating different game play.

And you don't need the open trade routes to find new traders.  The roads take you right to them.  They used to be spread out randomly across the map, now you just ride down a road until you find 1.

Yes, and in terms of story it doesn't make sense to me.

You're starting a business to cater to survivors so you choose a location that is close to zombies. Why wouldn't you choose a location close to survivors, which is probably not going to be a place infested with the big threat to humanity. Scatter those traders into the wilderness where zombies are few.

In terms of RWG, since traders are (mostly) on Gateway Tiles, they're (mostly) going to end up on entrances to cities/towns/villages.

 

[Javabean867]

Who said I am? I'm already in Valheim again. No quests here to spam. Not necessarily the best advertisement for this particular title, but hey ho.

At what tier is than an issue? Tiers 1-3 are within about 500m, I run them on foot, in light armor, watered up, takes barely any time. Grab a few animals, eggs and stumps on the way.

And to carry the stuff back home, you'll still need several trips, so you'll just go back and forth then for that? Or you build your base at the loot pile?

Higher tiers, I'll run on mega crush if need be, but even those are usually within shouting distance, if you get them from the trader at the city they spawn in.

And honestly, the game adapts to you. First week, you'll need to figure out a "horde base", that's done in a day, and the rest is up to you. There's no rush for ANYTHING in here.

Hot damn, how do separate out the quotes like that?  Looks smexy as hell lol.

I love and hate Valhiem so much lol.  That biome difficulty spike is crazy.  like how does a little wasp 1 shot me, when i can tank a troll's club attack.

Sry for my misunderstanding, but I thought you were spamming quests, and complaining about that being the meta.

I'll clear out a bunch of pois, have my cache in the middle of them.  Then take back the most valuable stuff.  At some point when I have vehicles, or feel brave doing night runs, I'll snatch up the remaining loot from those caches.

 

[Riamus]

Yes, and in terms of story it doesn't make sense to me.

You're starting a business to cater to survivors so you choose a location that is close to zombies. Why wouldn't you choose a location close to survivors, which is probably not going to be a place infested with the big threat to humanity. Scatter those traders into the wilderness where zombies are few.

In terms of RWG, since traders are (mostly) on Gateway Tiles, they're (mostly) going to end up on entrances to cities/towns/villages.

I don't know... if you're hidden in the wilderness, what are the chances survivors would find you?  And how much harder will it be to scavenge stuff to sell to the survivors if you're not close enough to do some scavenging?  Being at the very edge of town would seem like a good idea to me.  The larger concentration of zombies would presumably be toward the center of town, where most of the population was, rather than at the edge of town.  So you should be relatively safe.  And being at the edge makes it possible that you could escape if necessary.  Of course, we don't know how zombies would really act in a real life situation (assuming that zombies could actually exist), so that's just my take on it.  If there was some survivor camp set up somewhere, then it would make sense to have the trader there, but the game doesn't do anything like that.

Hot damn, how do separate out the quotes like that?  Looks smexy as hell lol.

You can do it two ways.  You can quote the same post multiple times and delete what you don't want, which works but is kind of clunky.  Or, you can use your mouse to select a section of a post and wait a second and you'll see a popup for Quote Selection.  Do that for each thing you want to quote.

 

[theFlu]

you were spamming quests, and complaining about that being the meta.

I wasn't exactly complaining, just pointing out that TFP is fully responsible for the meta, whatever it is. I don't like the quest spam meta, and I don't really like the POI lootspam meta either; currently I do think it's still valuable to get the quest tiers up while spamming POIs anyway, but your way isn't really worse. Largely depends on what we're optimizing for

Biome difficulty in Valheim; yeah, it's rather steep. Atm I should be killing the plains boss, but I haven't had any luck finding a waypoint yet. That's the first fight I'm remotely worried about, but Queen gets rather ridic. Died half a dozen times by now, mostly to the glitchy terrain tbh

 

[Rotor]

Hot damn, how do separate out the quotes like that?  Looks smexy as hell lol.

Old School <quote>Si?</quote>

Nope!  NVM.

 

[Riamus]

Old School <quote>Si?</quote>

Nope!  NVM.

Well, since BBCode came out MANY years ago, quotes are usually done using square brackets.  e.g. [ quote ] Some quote [ / quote]  (which works fine here, btw):

Some quote

But whether or not you can manually create quotes depends on the forum software.  It's generally not a good option anyhow, because it is far faster to actually quote something than to manually type a quote.

 

[Rotor]

Figger I got it wrong.  If allowed what I remember doing is when ever I wanted to split use end quote start quote, copy Viola, paste as desired.

 

[Javabean867]

I appreciate all the help folks.  I just need to do my quote responses via computer vs my phone.  I suffer from fat thumbitis and will hit every letter but the 1 i want lol.

 

[Riamus]

I appreciate all the help folks.  I just need to do my quote responses via computer vs my phone.  I suffer from fat thumbitis and will hit every letter but the 1 i want lol.

Yeah, phone is more of a challenge.  You can't even delete some stuff via phone (emoticons, for example)... at least, I can't on mine. 

 

[warmer]

It's clear that you like it because it makes it faster to get the magazines you want, but that's not enough reason to add something that makes no sense to vanilla.  It's fine as a mod, for those who don't care about how illogical it is and just want magazines to be easier to get, but not for vanilla.  In the end, what you want is that you can complete your magazines for specific sets more easily, right?  What would be wrong with just reducing the number of magazines instead?  That is entirely logical and would also make it easier to complete magazine sets.  I think you'll have far more support for something like that than crafting magazines out of random scraps.

I agree. I do like it because it is faster. It's also a lot less frustrating. When I worked in game dev, our #1 rule was, if it doesn't make it fun, it doesn't go in the game. I am thinking along those lines.

The way it works in this mod is magazines are removed completely and you can only craft specific ones. I want a hybrid approach. I look at this as no different than putting a point into a skill arbitrarily you haven't even once used or practiced in game. If that is fine, why is this crossing a line in a game mechanic sense? That is my point of view.

I would keep these rare. ie. loot bags only and chests. That is the point. Keep them rare and special, but helpful. The problem I have with the current system is I will get a ton of things I have zero points in and not nearly enough what I need in my specific skills choice. One specifically that seems way over represented is the amount of magazines for armor crafting. I never puts points into that because I find them often. 

Spears for instance. I am NEVER able to craft a better spear than what I find. I usually am at least one tier (stone/iron/steel) lower in crafting than what I find in loot. I use that as my main and even with every point I can put into it as I level, I can't craft better spears than I can find. Those magazines are kind of pointless for a LONG TIME until you reach the end of tier 3 and want level 6 Steel Spear. I usually find things better than I can craft, so crafting is always behind the curve for me.

Maybe it's just me because I play solo and I level pretty quickly so my loot stage might just be out pacing my ability to find enough magazines to craft. Thats the way it has been for me in the last 3 major releases, so this is the first time I have actually NEEDED/COULD to craft a better item than what I've already found.

I think if people play a lot of MP they might have a different opinion on magazines because they can trade/swap with friends who find something they need and vice versa.

 

[Javabean867]

here's a thought.  instead of the scrap magazine mechanic, why not set it up that spending a perk point gives you an appropriate amount of magazines?  obviously it depends on the tree, but for 1 that is 100 magazines you could set it up that each perk spent gets you 10-20 magazines automatically.  That way the tree fills out faster, and you can make the cool stuff a little before you start finding it.

You could set it up so each perk tree gives a number of books that align to the crafting that it is attached to.  That way you don't have a scrap magazine mechanic, that you spend on getting additional magazines.  It get you where you want to go, which is crafting more stuff. 

 

[Riamus]

Spears for instance. I am NEVER able to craft a better spear than what I find. I usually am at least one tier (stone/iron/steel) lower in crafting than what I find in loot. I use that as my main and even with every point I can put into it as I level, I can't craft better spears than I can find. Those magazines are kind of pointless for a LONG TIME until you reach the end of tier 3 and want level 6 Steel Spear. I usually find things better than I can craft, so crafting is always behind the curve for me.

Maybe it's just me because I play solo and I level pretty quickly so my loot stage might just be out pacing my ability to find enough magazines to craft. Thats the way it has been for me in the last 3 major releases, so this is the first time I have actually NEEDED/COULD to craft a better item than what I've already found.

That is strange to me.  I find so many spear magazines with that being pretty much the only weapon I use, and the only weapon I put points into until mid game.  I don't outpace looting, but it's in line with looting.  I just don't see any value in spending the limited number of parts to craft spears after tier 1.  So I tend to either craft a single tier 2 spear (the quality level varies, depending on what I feel like doing) or I skip tier 2 entirely for crafting.  I'll tend usually not craft tier 3 until I can do Q6.  This has nothing to do with magazines, though.  It's entirely due to limited parts and the fact that I usually have very limited forged steel at that point to spend on my weapon when I will tend to find a tier 3 spear at some point.  Either way, I am never short on spear magazines.  Now, this is in a 2 player game, but 90% of my spear magazines are what I find, so that's not really a factor.

In any case, crafting prior to magazines happened far less than it does with magazines.  People are actually crafting more now than they used to.  I do agree that it's still often easier to loot than to craft, but it's better than it was before.  If they continue to tweak things, it will get better even without changing how magazines work.  Adjusting how many magazines you need, where and how often they are found, and improving the situation with parts and other resources can all help to improve crafting to get it closer to the level of looting.  I don't think they are going to make it so that crafting is the best option all the time.  I think the goal will be to make it a valid choice that you can use if you don't want to loot, while leaving looting also a valid choice if you don't want to craft.  Making either option better than the other isn't a great idea.

 

[theFlu]

Keep them rare and special, but helpful.

How rare are we talking about? Assuming you max out the relevant talent, 10 "fragment mags" out of the 100 when you max out? Even that feels a little weak, at the point when you're about to max a gun skill, doing a dedicated gathering session finishes the rest pretty fast, usually.

And 10% doesn't seem that rare - what kind of a drop rate are you thinking?

 

[warmer]

That is strange to me.  I find so many spear magazines with that being pretty much the only weapon I use, and the only weapon I put points into until mid game.  I don't outpace looting, but it's in line with looting.  I just don't see any value in spending the limited number of parts to craft spears after tier 1.  So I tend to either craft a single tier 2 spear (the quality level varies, depending on what I feel like doing) or I skip tier 2 entirely for crafting.  I'll tend usually not craft tier 3 until I can do Q6.  This has nothing to do with magazines, though.  It's entirely due to limited parts and the fact that I usually have very limited forged steel at that point to spend on my weapon when I will tend to find a tier 3 spear at some point.  Either way, I am never short on spear magazines.  Now, this is in a 2 player game, but 90% of my spear magazines are what I find, so that's not really a factor.

My experience might be due to the fact that I don't follow the trader quest progression to be sent to another biome. When I first started playing I exclusively did, but now that I have so many hours in, that feels SO SLOW and tedious. I will usually setup my base in the forest biome near the wasteland border, so I can make easy trips in for good loots. This could be why this happens to me. I am influencing my loot stage a lot by doing this and likely influences why I can never craft the same quality as what I am finding. 

To be fair, I don't think this is an uncommon play style. So I am not sure if I am somewhat unusual in this or not.
 

How rare are we talking about? Assuming you max out the relevant talent, 10 "fragment mags" out of the 100 when you max out? Even that feels a little weak, at the point when you're about to max a gun skill, doing a dedicated gathering session finishes the rest pretty fast, usually.

And 10% doesn't seem that rare - what kind of a drop rate are you thinking?

I was thinking the drop rate would be 10%-20% of the rate of typical magazines. I probably didn't explain in what I was relating that % to enough. If would much rather get a choice of 2 magazines than 3 random ones from a quest. That is much better in my opinion.

 

[Riamus]

My experience might be due to the fact that I don't follow the trader quest progression to be sent to another biome. When I first started playing I exclusively did, but now that I have so many hours in, that feels SO SLOW and tedious. I will usually setup my base in the forest biome near the wasteland border, so I can make easy trips in for good loots. This could be why this happens to me. I am influencing my loot stage a lot by doing this and likely influences why I can never craft the same quality as what I am finding. 

To be fair, I don't think this is an uncommon play style. So I am not sure if I am somewhat unusual in this or not.

In most games I drop my base in the forest and never move.  I might move one time if the town I'm near isn't big enough to offer Tier 5 POI, but that's it.  I don't follow progression at all as there's no reason to do so.  But I think your issue is that you're jumping into the wasteland right away.  You are definitely going to get better loot than you can craft if you're doing that.  That is why people do that.

I think it's fairly common to jump into the wasteland right away, though it depends on the player.  I don't do it because I know it will push me ahead so quickly that the end game will be too soon and make the game more boring (for me).  But many play that way because they want to rush the end of the game.  However, once 2.0 is released, that will be either very difficult to do or perhaps impossible to do.  They are going to make it so you can't just jump into the higher tier biomes right away.  They haven't given specific details on how it will work, but they've mentioned radiation throughout the wasteland and I think it was devs who mentioned smoke in the burnt forest (though that might have just been someone else, so don't quote me on that ).  So my assumption is that you'll die very quickly in a higher tier biome unless you have the correct equipment to handle the danger, which will likely be gated in some way... a certain game stage or a certain number of magazines to craft what you need or something.  Either way, you might be able to get into the burnt forest or maybe the desert within the first week, but I have a feeling you'll need a couple weeks on 1 hour days to get to the snowy forest and maybe three weeks for the wasteland unless you find a way to rush things.  Of course, this is just my guess.  I have no idea how it'll work or how easy it might be to circumvent.  But it should at least help to prevent people from jumping ahead so much that it's messing up the balance, which is what you're seeing.

 

[Javabean867]

I was thinking the drop rate would be 10%-20% of the rate of typical magazines. I probably didn't explain in what I was relating that % to enough. If would much rather get a choice of 2 magazines than 3 random ones from a quest. That is much better in my opinion.

Won't that take up a valuable magazine slot in the loot table?  If a container can only hold say 4 magazines, wouldn't you rather get a full magazine in 1 of the lots, vs something that once you find 10 of them(or what-ever ratio you decide on) to make 1 magazine?

 

[warmer]

Won't that take up a valuable magazine slot in the loot table?  If a container can only hold say 4 magazines, wouldn't you rather get a full magazine in 1 of the lots, vs something that once you find 10 of them(or what-ever ratio you decide on) to make 1 magazine?

Currently it's 3 scraps to craft a single magazine of your choice. I was thinking if you kept this number of scraps and had a 10-20% chance of your magainze being a scrap vs. a full magazine, you'd end up with 1 magazine of your choice (3 scraps at 20%) for every 12 magazines you find 3+12=15 magazines, 20% of 15 is 3.
 

However, once 2.0 is released, that will be either very difficult to do or perhaps impossible to do.  They are going to make it so you can't just jump into the higher tier biomes right away.  They haven't given specific details on how it will work, but they've mentioned radiation throughout the wasteland and I think it was devs who mentioned smoke in the burnt forest (though that might have just been someone else, so don't quote me on that ).  So my assumption is that you'll die very quickly in a higher tier biome unless you have the correct equipment to handle the danger, which will likely be gated in some way... 

I didn't realize they would gate this in that way. I guess if they implement weather in a harsh way, it can easily be locked behind tiered armors to give you what you need to survive without constant debuff/damage. I don't have the patience to spend more than 7 days in a biome before I move on. I try to do 1 horde night per biome. I usually play on 90min or 2hr days, so that is 10.5-14 hours per biome which feels like a lot already. At that rate that's 40-ish hours before you'd hit wasteland which feels as grindy as I could stand. I almost never play beyond day 35 because I get bored of the map and would be 50+ hours on that game at that point.

 

[Roland]

I didn't realize they would gate this in that way. I guess if they implement weather in a harsh way, it can easily be locked behind tiered armors to give you what you need to survive without constant debuff/damage. I don't have the patience to spend more than 7 days in a biome before I move on. I try to do 1 horde night per biome. I usually play on 90min or 2hr days, so that is 10.5-14 hours per biome which feels like a lot already. At that rate that's 40-ish hours before you'd hit wasteland which feels as grindy as I could stand. I almost never play beyond day 35 because I get bored of the map and would be 50+ hours on that game at that point.

If you are fine with staying in a biome for a week of 2-hour days then I don't think the new biome survival mechanics will affect you too much. You'll definitely need to focus a portion of your time on attaining survivability for each new biome but I think 14 hours per biome is easily plenty of time for an experienced veteran player. New players will have a bit more of a learning curve to juggle another ball in the air but I don't think you'll find yourself stuck in a biome for more than a week at that time setting if biome progression is something you want to push. 

I have zero doubt we will see flex threads popping up saying, "It's day 5 and I can live in the Wasteland so what's left to do?!??!!  Where are the endgame biomes TFP?!?!"