PC Long-range rifles imbalance

[Misamor]

Sure, but first tell me how useful that bone knife is for mining, you know, that one thing the game encourages you to do.

Good job, just miss the point I made about you setting up a contrived situation for comparison and then making the sane contrived comparison in the reply. 

What's the one thing that changed a few updates ago into learn by LOOTING?

How many trader quest categories have you visiting POIs? (I'll answer that for you: 4 out of 5, 6 if you count the "open route" quest according to the wiki https://7daystodie.fandom.com/wiki/Traders)

You literally have to loot POIs to level up your crafting skills!

And here you accuse me of making up a COnTRIvEd situation, where my point is literally that this situation is actually how people will be forced to play 90% of the time, and that this range argument is actually irrelevant... And then you proceed to answer me about... Range 

People have answered me that CQC weapons are also different, and that it's just a matter of playstyle. But they really work because they ALL solve the same problem, with the same amount of effectiveness, just in a different way. Whether you like to keep punching zombies in a rain of blows with your fists, or to give big hits to a Z with your sledgehammer and then fall back to recharge your stamina, your weapon will always be effective because ultimately, they are all as effective as the other to hit zombies that are 1 meter away. Now what if I made a CQC weapon that was ineffective from 0 to 2 meters away but great from 2 meters to 3 meters away (Imagine a hallberd or something), you'd tell me it's terrible, right? A CQC weapon that's not even good in CQC? That's what the rifle is: a weapon that allows you to hit far away better than any other weapon... Which barely ever happens in a regular setting.

 

[TWORDY]

This is not the case with the rifle, because its damage output is way too little to compensate for its slow rate of fire. Additionally, CQC weapons and most firearms allow you do deal with most of the game's challenges. With only a pistol for example: you can hunt, you can easily clear out a building... 

In addition, Sniper Rifles have smaller mags, hip-firing is not as effective, a proper aiming requires a skill, not general direction bullet spam.

My pistol deals 38.4 damage.

My rifle deals 61.3 damage.

RIP Rifle if it`s not even 2.1-2.25x damage compared to pistol. But the uplift in the damage output would only make sense, only if the economy with production costs goes up for a single pellet. 

Do you have any suggestions on how they should improve it? 61.3 damage out of a T0 weapon is pretty good, no? How much more damage should it do? If anything, I'd say it and the pipe shotgun should get just slightly faster reloads. Maybe like 15% faster tops.

Basic Pipe Shotgun needs at least 25-35% faster reloads.

 

[Riamus]

RIP Rifle if it`s not even 2.1-2.25x damage compared to pistol. But the uplift in the damage output would only make sense, only if the economy with production costs goes up for a single pellet. 

Don't forget to add in the headshot bonus damage that rifles get.  Rifles also gets a stacking bonus for repeated shots (up to 30%) while pistols do not.  I haven't really compared the perks for both, so not sure how they all balance out against each other.  But rifles are much more powerful if you're using them for headshots and especially if not using them point blank.

In any case, this discussion is just going in circles.  Rifles are not, and will probably never be, a great option for clearing POI.  Their use is for long range and most POI do not have long range areas, though you do have some like the Shotgun Messiah with the shooting range where they can work very well.  They are great options for horde night if you enjoy long range killing.  I really only use them for horde night and they sit in a box between those.  That doesn't mean they have no value or that they need to be changed to work up close like other weapons, though.  There really isn't anything wrong with weapons that have different uses.  Use a different weapon if you don't like the rifle.  It already does a lot of damage with headshots and increasing that damage even more isn't a good option.  If you want higher damage for a point blank weapon, use the .44 Mag or Desert Vulture or a shotgun.  About the only thing I might change is for the Hunting Rifle (just that one) to have a slightly increase magazine size... maybe 3 shots.  Right now, it is really just about as useless as a pipe rifle because one shot with a long reload isn't a good option.  I completely skip pipe weapons because of the long reloads and limited mag and since the Hunting Rifle is still like that, I also skip that.

 

[TWORDY]

Don't forget to add in the headshot bonus damage that rifles get.  Rifles also gets a stacking bonus for repeated shots (up to 30%) while pistols do not.  I haven't really compared the perks for both, so not sure how they all balance out against each other.  But rifles are much more powerful if you're using them for headshots and especially if not using them point blank.

Yeah, but first You have to land those shots and it is not easy even for a seasoned player like me, since there is a spam of multiple enemies. You may land even 5 headshots with automatic weapons, without scoping. Good luck landing them with Sniper Rifle to finally get to your bonuses and multipliers. I see myself dying and my companions dying more often while holding Sniper Rifle in end-game on radiated, I am talking about Warrior, not Walk in the Park difficulty. You can`t compare this in solo, since battle intensity and dynamics are completely different. But since I go with a group of players, my confidence drops to zero with end-game weapons that should kick hard as DMR/Battle Rifle. 

Rifles are not, and will probably never be, a great option for clearing POI.  They are great options for horde night if you enjoy long range killing.  I really only use them for horde night and they sit in a box between those. 

Yeah man, but You have to loot in this game a lot. You have to go through a lot of cramped interiors. There is no decent close combat equipment in Perception from get go. In end-game DMRs are pretty crap, I am not talking early-game weapons. If end-game feels completely wrong then something is up.

Use a different weapon if you don't like the rifle. 

It is not a matter of preference. Sniper Rifles are hard-locked to Perception. I may swallow its performance in early and mid-game... but, really I can`t compete with others in late-game... I am getting way outpaced not only in battle. I was going through several playthroughs and I`m pretty confident that solo-ing with Sniper Rifles only is a bad option.

About the only thing I might change is for the Hunting Rifle (just that one) to have a slightly increase magazine size... maybe 3 shots.  Right now, it is really just about as useless as a pipe rifle because one shot with a long reload isn't a good option.  I completely skip pipe weapons because of the long reloads and limited mag and since the Hunting Rifle is still like that, I also skip that.

So, You do agree that at least Hunting Rifle requires some boost. I avoid Pipe Rifle and Shotgun Rifle because they do seem pretty useless because of loading times compared to the overall damage output. But I did not care since I am only heavily outpaced by others in the late-game.

 

[Riamus]

Yeah, but first You have to land those shots and it is not easy even for a seasoned player like me, since there is a spam of multiple enemies. You may land even 5 headshots with automatic weapons, without scoping. Good luck landing them with Sniper Rifle to finally get to your bonuses and multipliers. I see myself dying and my companions dying more often while holding Sniper Rifle in end-game on radiated, I am talking about Warrior, not Walk in the Park difficulty. You can`t compare this in solo, since battle intensity and dynamics are completely different. But since I go with a group of players, my confidence drops to zero with end-game weapons that should kick hard as DMR/Battle Rifle. 

Which is why I said it isn't intended, or good, for close combat.  If you aren't close, headshots are easy.

Yeah man, but You have to loot in this game a lot. You have to go through a lot of cramped interiors. There is no decent close combat equipment in Perception from get go. In end-game DMRs are pretty crap, I am not talking early-game weapons. If end-game feels completely wrong then something is up.

Spear is a more than decent close combat weapon from the get-go.  If you meant ranged, then you are correct.  But I still don't see any issue with that.  In early game, you can easily use another ranged weapon and do just fine even without putting points into it.  I usually use the pistol for a long time in the early to mid game without ever putting points into it and it works very well.  Sure, it isn't as good as it would be with points in it, but it does what needs to be done.

It is not a matter of preference. Sniper Rifles are hard-locked to Perception. I may swallow its performance in early and mid-game... but, really I can`t compete with others in late-game... I am getting way outpaced not only in battle. I was going through several playthroughs and I`m pretty confident that solo-ing with Sniper Rifles only is a bad option.

But that is the thing... early game, you have to consider where you put your points and you might want to only put them in perception if you are focused on a single tree (I don't bother sticking to a single tree myself, but I know many prefer that in the beginning).  Once you are in late game, you have enough points that you can be putting them into other trees.  You can easily max attribute points in 2 trees by or before late game unless you're taking every single perk in each tree, which generally isn't beneficial as many perks usually aren't needed by most players.  So whatever your second tree is, you can easily use that ranged weapon instead.

So, You do agree that at least Hunting Rifle requires some boost. I avoid Pipe Rifle and Shotgun Rifle because they do seem pretty useless because of loading times compared to the overall damage output. But I did not care since I am only heavily outpaced by others in the late-game.

Only because it is almost the same as the pipe rifle.  It just doesn't really change from that.

 

[warmer]

The range of each firearm is somewhat different and presumably they are scaled against each other out to render distance. 

In that case does the actual rifle range even matter?  The rifle's range just needs to be better than the rest.

If a player can hit any zombie in render distance with the rifle; it doesn't matter how far the rifle could reach in real life.  Especially when balanced against other firearms in game that can see to render distance (like the pistol) but never hit at render distance.

I can agree with most of what you said, the problem is the high end scopes are useless except for a 1 headshot and then you wish it wasn't on once they get within 30m. To make them actually useful, it would be nice if you could pick off zeds 300m down the road  from and elevated position while watching a building your friend is in. that is when they would be truly useful. Snipers aren't snipers in the sense of what they claim to be. They have the range of a semi auto combat rifle.

 

[TWORDY]

Which is why I said it isn't intended, or good, for close combat.  If you aren't close, headshots are easy.

Well if You say so. 2-3 targets on Your screen, pretty sure I am coping... but 12-16 is a different story nearing your face. I am sure that my aiming skills are slightly above average. I used to play with players who won rewards in official ESL tournaments. So yeah, I must be completely trash. I am not talking about bolt-action rifles but semi-auto.

In early game, you can easily use another ranged weapon and do just fine even without putting points into it.  I usually use the pistol for a long time in the early to mid game without ever putting points into it and it works very well.  Sure, it isn't as good as it would be with points in it, but it does what needs to be done.

I am doing exactly the same.

But that is the thing... early game, you have to consider where you put your points and you might want to only put them in perception if you are focused on a single tree (I don't bother sticking to a single tree myself, but I know many prefer that in the beginning).  Once you are in late game, you have enough points that you can be putting them into other trees.  You can easily max attribute points in 2 trees by or before late game unless you're taking every single perk in each tree, which generally isn't beneficial as many perks usually aren't needed by most players.  So whatever your second tree is, you can easily use that ranged weapon instead.

I would expect my tree to perform somehow.

 

[Pernicious]

In any case, this discussion is just going in circles.  Rifles are not, and will probably never be, a great option for clearing POI.  Their use is for long range and most POI do not have long range areas, though you do have some like the Shotgun Messiah with the shooting range where they can work very well.  

100%. It has its uses, but solo clearing most POIs is not it. I find it curious that there are some who insist on an open sandbox game, every weapon must be equal for their play style and refuse to recognise that their play style isn't the only one. 

It'd be interesting to see TFP's stat's on how many people play with each weapon. Recently, Arrowhead really copped a public beating from their player base for nerfing a shotgun they claimed 30% of users using because they insisted that meant it was too OP. Player base insisted its popularity meant that it was the most fun. Kinda hard to argue with that. 

 

[Riamus]

100%. It has its uses, but solo clearing most POIs is not it. I find it curious that there are some who insist on an open sandbox game, every weapon must be equal for their play style and refuse to recognise that their play style isn't the only one. 

It'd be interesting to see TFP's stat's on how many people play with each weapon. Recently, Arrowhead really copped a public beating from their player base for nerfing a shotgun they claimed 30% of users using because they insisted that meant it was too OP. Player base insisted its popularity meant that it was the most fun. Kinda hard to argue with that. 

Heh.  I don't know if it is true or not, but I think a lot of players have gotten used to games where all weapons are essentially just skins and they all do basically the same thing and have the same uses and versatility just so that people can play with any weapon they want without it being worse than any other weapon and to allow a ton of weapon choices.  A lot of games have been doing that lately.  But that doesn't mean that's the only way to make weapons in a game and many of us like having weapons that are actually fundamentally different and have different uses.

 

[Pernicious]

Heh.  I don't know if it is true or not, but I think a lot of players have gotten used to games where all weapons are essentially just skins and they all do basically the same thing and have the same uses and versatility just so that people can play with any weapon they want without it being worse than any other weapon and to allow a ton of weapon choices.  A lot of games have been doing that lately.  But that doesn't mean that's the only way to make weapons in a game and many of us like having weapons that are actually fundamentally different and have different uses.

Definitely seen that within the fully auto class of weapons. When the rpm goes up, the damage per round goes down so that the overall DPS is fairly similar. 

It's a real pity, because they have so many other variables to play with.  Aside from the obvious clip size and recoil, there is reload speed, sway (movement of reticle while running/not crouched/prone), recoil recovery (how quickly reticle returns to normal), grouping bloom (how much variation bullets vary from centre of cross hair), bloom recovery, turn speed (how fast you can re-aim a machine pistol vs a  squad automatic weapon), run speed, run stamina, armour/barrier penetration, weapon over heat, weapon jamming, usability as melee weapon (pistol whip, bayonet and rifle butt stroke vs damaging an SMG/misaligning a marksmans rifle, or unable to swing a squad automatic weapon). I'm sure there are dozens more I haven't thought of.

Unfortunately it is people like OP who seem to insist all weapons have to be viable for their play style, so devs do tend to design that way.

 

[TWORDY]

Unfortunately it is people like OP who seem to insist all weapons have to be viable for their play style, so devs do tend to design that way.

For a while let`s leave the realm of personal preferences, playstyle, belief systems. Raw data only. TTK - Time To Kill

Time to Kill = Rounds Per Minute per Damage

RPM, DMG. Range and Mag Size might be ignored since most of POIs are CQC.

So imagine 15 enemies in proximity of 10-15 metres.

I focused on Rounds Per Minute and Damage. This (RPM) data tells us that a player is capable of shooting 3 rounds from SMG, while one bullet is shot from Sniper Rifle/DMR/Battle Rifle. But the damage of a single projectile that comes with Sniper Rifle is 2x higher than one coming out from SMGs. So by default (without headshot/hit bonuses) number TTK of SR/DMR/Battle Rifle is around 2/3 of SMG. Which is abysmal... for Sniper Rifle. Sniper Rifle is around only 66% of SMGs efficiency. 50% compared to M60.  Please keep in mind that with DMR players have to one tap, and headshots require some skill and zero mayhem.

If You look closely at other categories of final/end-game Tier weapons.

SMG & Tactical Rifle TTK is around 30% much faster than Sniper Rifle. M60 is 50% more efficient when it comes to Time to Kill. Shotgun is 100% more efficient at close range. No matter which part of the body is being hit. Head is on average only 10% of the body part. 

Penetrator only ignores Armored Targets.

I am dying like little a Bee from Wasteland and I check the stats which do make sense to me why. Any other weapon is around 30%-100% better to take down Zombies by default.

All Sniper Rifles in a category require at least 30% damage buff. Pipe Rifles reload animation needs at least 15% faster Reload times. Lever Action requires 33% faster RPM and 6 rounds instead of 5. Hunting Rifle might get 5% faster reload animation. All Sniper Rifles need separate ammo type to support damage/economy scaling. Sniper Rifle mag from 12 to 15. Sniper Rifles are super sweaty right now without adjustments.

Perception doesn`t have even armor bonuses. Raw statistics data doesn`t support balance. Sniper Rifle should kick the guts out much better than M60 and it is not the case sadly.

PvP is a different story but Hunting Zeds with Sniper Rifles does not add up and stays behind other categories. 

That is all I have to add. I am not blaming anyone, I am not bashing anyone... but there is a room for amendments and playtests. 

 

[meganoth]

You cannot convince me that DMR/semi-auto battle rifle stands on par even with SMG while doing Digging Supplies mission in the late game with 2 other mates. Staying in the circle is almost impossible in the late game on Warrior while doing LvL 3 mission. Solo is a different story but in a group of players the difference is quite stark in survivability. I will try to record a video of what exactly is going on. Zombies are quite spammy sometimes.

I always build a 2x2x3 block of wood or concrete cobblestone with ladders for access when I do higher level dig quests. This prevents me from leaving the circle when the going gets tough.

And in our co-op group of 4 we always have at least 2, often 3 dedicated to killing zombies while 1 or 2 are digging. I.e. often only the miner digs which is fast enough. And depending on situation digging stops until a zombie wave got cleared. Especially when opening the chest we clear zombies afterwards, and only then the next one opens the chest.

Especially because of the block as a safe place we can even do high level dig quests with a mix of shooting and melee and no danger of leaving the circle. Any gun and melee weapon has its use in this scenario, headshots are no problem

 

[TWORDY]

I always build a 2x2x3 block of wood or concrete cobblestone with ladders for access when I do higher level dig quests. This prevents me from leaving the circle when the going gets tough.

Sounds like a good defense strategy. Never thought of taking cobble blocks with myself.

And in our co-op group of 4 we always have at least 2, often 3 dedicated to killing zombies while 1 or 2 are digging. I.e. often only the miner digs which is fast enough. And depending on situation digging stops until a zombie wave got cleared. Especially when opening the chest we clear zombies afterwards, and only then the next one opens the chest.

Same strategy.

Especially because of the block as a safe place we can even do high level dig quests with a mix of shooting and melee and no danger of leaving the circle. Any gun and melee weapon has its use in this scenario, headshots are no problem

I wouldn`t need any nerd poling or bunkers only if the mission zone was like 2x of its current size in higher difficulty levels.

Even with 30% damage bonus Sniper Rifle feels bad. 

M60 rounds per minute 440. Semi-automatic Sniper Rifle 140. M60 damage model per shot 90. Semi-automatic Sniper Rifle 125 per shot. I think those numbers leave behind Sniper Rifle far back in effectiveness. 

 

[Riamus]

Even with 30% damage bonus Sniper Rifle feels bad. 

M60 rounds per minute 440. Semi-automatic Sniper Rifle 140. M60 damage model per shot 90. Semi-automatic Sniper Rifle 125 per shot. I think those numbers leave behind Sniper Rifle far back in effectiveness. 

I never even use M60.  It wastes ammo.  The sniper rifle lets you kill most things in one shot and saves a ton of ammo.  But as has been stated already, it has its place and "up close and personal" isn't it.

 

[TWORDY]

I never even use M60.  It wastes ammo.  The sniper rifle lets you kill most things in one shot and saves a ton of ammo.  But as has been stated already, it has its place and "up close and personal" isn't it.

It is suicidal to go into 5 LVL POI with Semi-automatic Sniper Rifle compared to any end-game weapon due to bad stats. Any player will be more successful with SMG, not because it is close- range weapon, not to mention M60. You`re gambling your success with Sniper Rifle... because it requires a skill and stats are far worse when it comes to (TTK) downing the Zombies. Hitbox on the head is only 10% of the body, headshot multiplier is the same as on any other weapon 300%. Saving ammo is a personal choice. Semi-automatic Sniper Rifle only works on static enemies or 2-3 at a time. Any other weapon will down the enemy 30-100% faster. I am talking about stats.

 

[Riamus]

It is suicidal to go into 5 LVL POI with Semi-automatic Sniper Rifle compared to any end-game weapon due to bad stats. Any player will be more successful with SMG, not because it is close- range weapon, not to mention M60. You`re gambling your success with Sniper Rifle... because it requires a skill and stats are far worse when it comes to (TTK) downing the Zombies. Hitbox on the head is only 10% of the body, headshot multiplier is the same as on any other weapon 300%. Saving ammo is a personal choice. Semi-automatic Sniper Rifle only works on static enemies or 2-3 at a time. Any other weapon will down the enemy 30-100% faster. I am talking about stats.

I think I just said that, and said ita few times previously.  It has its place and that isn't when you are surrounded.  I use spears in tier 5 except a few specific places where there are too many zombies spread out too far to handle.  Then I switch to a pistol or desert vulture or SMG, depending what I feel like using in that particular game for backup.  I wouldn't ever take a sniper rifle for a POI because I know that isn't what they are for.  Why try to fit a square peg into a round hole?

As far as headshots, what has been said, though I haven't looked in the XML to verify if it is true, is that rifles get an extra bonus beyond the normal headshot bonus when getting headshots.  I know I take down enemies in one headshot far more easily in a single shot with a sniper than any other late game weapon.  Maybe that is just the base damage being higher or maybe it does have that extra bonus on top of the normal multiplier.  As I said, I haven't looked because I honestly don't care.  I like that rifle and use it exclusively on horde night unless I run out of ammo for it.

 

[Krougal]

It is suicidal to go into 5 LVL POI with Semi-automatic Sniper Rifle compared to any end-game weapon due to bad stats. Any player will be more successful with SMG, not because it is close- range weapon, not to mention M60. You`re gambling your success with Sniper Rifle... because it requires a skill and stats are far worse when it comes to (TTK) downing the Zombies. Hitbox on the head is only 10% of the body, headshot multiplier is the same as on any other weapon 300%. Saving ammo is a personal choice. Semi-automatic Sniper Rifle only works on static enemies or 2-3 at a time. Any other weapon will down the enemy 30-100% faster. I am talking about stats.

It's doable with the right mods. Instead of the normal 8x scope I'd go with a mag extender, and some mods for hipfire - laser,foregrip and stock. Rad remover instead of stock if not doing enough damage for 1 shot kills. If you want to aim then reflex instead of laser, and maybe barrel extender and bipod. Optionally a silencer for stealth kills.

Is it the optimal weapon for the situation? No, but if it is what you've perked into it should remain viable at least.

 

[Vaeliorin]

I never even use M60.  It wastes ammo.  The sniper rifle lets you kill most things in one shot and saves a ton of ammo.  But as has been stated already, it has its place and "up close and personal" isn't it.

The M60 only wastes ammo if you have terrible trigger discipline.  You can 1/2 shot almost every zombie with head shots, and when the @%$# hits the fan, you can spray down a lot of zombies in a short time.

 

[theFlu]

I wouldn't ever take a sniper rifle for a POI because I know that isn't what they are for.  Why try to fit a square peg into a round hole?

Well, I bring two, what does that say about me.. They make a lot of round holes. I filmed a run just for fun in A21, even the mess of an end fight there (14:40 onwards) actually saw some good use of AP Sniper as well; although for that end fight I was relying more on the short-range stuff, as things tended to get a little close...

https://odysee.com/@theFlu:d/NavzPrisonClear:a

Usually in my Agi/Per build, one kitted for general-purpose stealth kills (giggity) and the other for oh-crap-AP.

 

[Krougal]

The M60 only wastes ammo if you have terrible trigger discipline.  You can 1/2 shot almost every zombie with head shots, and when the @%$# hits the fan, you can spray down a lot of zombies in a short time.

I have been using it lately and it feels too clunky. I mean it feels like an M60 should I guess, but I much prefer the handling of the TAR or even the AK. I was perfectly happy back when the AK was it. I generally find the full auto awful, although the SMG does seem to have better control. Body shots maybe fine on adventurer but they are just a waste of time and ammo on survivalist.