Good job, you completely missed an essential part of my argument even though I explicity lay it out. Now tell everyone how that range advantage is useful while clearing buildings. You know, the one thing the game encourages you to do.
PC Long-range rifles imbalance
- Thread starter Misamor
- Start date
Good job, you completely missed an essential part of my argument even though I explicity lay it out. Now tell everyone how that range advantage is useful while clearing buildings. You know, the one thing the game encourages you to do.
zztong
Well-known member
I certainly agree that a rifle isn't my preferred choice for clearing a POI. The OP's math on the matter rings true. A silenced rifle might be nice for stealth, but I'd rather just clear a POI using arrows and save bullets/slugs for hordes.
A rifle is more useful for horde night, but still not my main choice, though I suppose that's going to depend on the base design or if the player is being mobile. Having bow-kited hordes, I could maybe see doing it with a rifle, but if your goal is earning lots of experience points then you're going to be in a horde base.
I used to use a rifle for hunting, but hunting with stealth and bow has been awesome in A21 and V1.0.
I have used a tricked-out sniper rifle in the wasteland, spending the night just one-shotting distant Z's from a height.
A rifle is more useful for horde night, but still not my main choice, though I suppose that's going to depend on the base design or if the player is being mobile. Having bow-kited hordes, I could maybe see doing it with a rifle, but if your goal is earning lots of experience points then you're going to be in a horde base.
I used to use a rifle for hunting, but hunting with stealth and bow has been awesome in A21 and V1.0.
I have used a tricked-out sniper rifle in the wasteland, spending the night just one-shotting distant Z's from a height.
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Pernicious
New member
Sure, but first tell me how useful that bone knife is for mining, you know, that one thing the game encourages you to do.
Good job, just miss the point I made about you setting up a contrived situation for comparison and then making the sane contrived comparison in the reply.
theFlu
Well-known member
Riamus
Well-known member
I probably do on horde night with my sniper rifle.How often are you fighting anything at 30 blocks? And more importantly.. WHY?!
I will often be killing zombies as they spawn, so whatever that distance is. At least in the early party of horde night before they start to come too quickly to keep up.
theFlu
Well-known member
Riamus
Well-known member
More than 2 minutes, but yes. You didn't ask how often.So, about 2 minutes every 7 hours?
I really don't have a problem with weapons that have specific uses. You might as well say the rocket launcher isn't worth having yet people love it. It certainly isn't what you want to use when clearing a POI unless you want to heal yourself constantly. And it isn't normally a good option on horde nights either. It is there for fun blowing stuff up. Rifles are there mainly for horde night or because you enjoy those long shots with high damage headshots. Melee isn't great on horde night unless you have a base designed for melee combat... And although I've done that, it isn't what I consider fun. You stand in one place, facing one direction all horde night and just spam the attack button. There are times and places for each weapon and that is okay.
theFlu
Well-known member
Umm, that's what I literally asked, no?
Me neither, I was just amusing myself with the Championships of The Most Contrived Example over there. High tier rifles are great, I think my favorite spec is still Agi/Per, where I use mostly rifles with stealth boni, parkour and reloads on the hop. Lower tiers are a little meh, but it's not like you can't put other weapons to good use while levelling rifles.
Rocket launcher isn't one I ever use, but it'd have its utility in some high tier POIs (like suitable jails and whatnot); but the basic nades fill that role while having a bit more utility with the timing, plus taking one less bag slot. If I had to complain about something, it'd be mines, but I wouldn't know how to make those "actually useful"...
TWORDY
Active member
Long Range Rifles seem to be pretty strong in scenarios where nobody expects and cannot reach me while I`m on the higher ground, behind decent cover, and the enemy lines up mindlessly.
You cannot convince me that DMR/semi-auto battle rifle stands on par even with SMG while doing Digging Supplies mission in the late game with 2 other mates. Staying in the circle is almost impossible in the late game on Warrior while doing LvL 3 mission. Solo is a different story but in a group of players the difference is quite stark in survivability. I will try to record a video of what exactly is going on. Zombies are quite spammy sometimes.
The only thing that saves this class is probably a proper use of nades and mollies. I would love to have pickable Claymores (up to 3 placeable to avoid explosive placement spam, so more placed around me come back to equipment, or make claymores super expensive late game item)... Claymores to secure my perimeter. Or some grenades/mines on activation might suddenly lift up to 1.5 metres and explode nicely. Some fun toys for big boys. Please devs...
You cannot balance the game based only on damage and range tables, or reload times. Sometimes it takes hours of playtime to see the final results.
You cannot convince me that DMR/semi-auto battle rifle stands on par even with SMG while doing Digging Supplies mission in the late game with 2 other mates. Staying in the circle is almost impossible in the late game on Warrior while doing LvL 3 mission. Solo is a different story but in a group of players the difference is quite stark in survivability. I will try to record a video of what exactly is going on. Zombies are quite spammy sometimes.
The only thing that saves this class is probably a proper use of nades and mollies. I would love to have pickable Claymores (up to 3 placeable to avoid explosive placement spam, so more placed around me come back to equipment, or make claymores super expensive late game item)... Claymores to secure my perimeter. Or some grenades/mines on activation might suddenly lift up to 1.5 metres and explode nicely. Some fun toys for big boys. Please devs...
You cannot balance the game based only on damage and range tables, or reload times. Sometimes it takes hours of playtime to see the final results.
Riamus
Well-known member
Oops. Yeah, I read that as meaning that someone wouldn't rather than the frequency and didn't recheck your original post for wording.Umm, that's what I literally asked, no?
You mention the buried supplies quests being a problem with zombie spam. Out of curiosity, is everyone looting the chest at once or digging at once? I've seen very large numbers even with two people if both are digging and have either miner 69er maxed or treasure hunting maxed since you either dig very fast or don't need 10 blocks broken between zombie spawns. And if everyone loots at once, you get spawns from each loot, which adds up quickly.
TWORDY
Active member
I believe the size of the circle is one of the things contributing to the difficulty. More zombies might spawn also based on the number of players doing the mission as well. The zombies spawn in waves each time a given player loots the crate. For me, it is mind-blowing that DMRs are less versatile than other handguns in a such scenario. Ohh... maybe zombie spawns stack up indeed if two players loot the crape in a short span of time... but it doesn`t change the fact that I feel handicapped with DMR. Lever should stay underwhelming but DMR shall kick the guts out no matter the range... but its not the case.
Riamus
Well-known member
It should have the same damage point blank. I don't think any weapon has damage drop off when getting closer... Just when getting further. But rifles get bonus damage from headshots and if you are being surrounded in close quarters, you probably aren't getting many headshots, which might make it seem like less damage.
But yes, each time the circle shrinks, zombies can spawn and each time someone loots, they will spawn. So if 5 people loot at once, you're going to have probably 30 zombies all in close quarters very quickly. Or is everyone has treasure Hunter upgraded so they only need 3 blocks to get it to shrink, you can cause that to shrink half a dozen times in a few seconds and each time can spawn a group of zombies.
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TWORDY
Active member
It should have the same damage point blank. I don't think any weapon has damage drop off when getting closer... Just when getting further. But rifles get bonus damage from headshots and is you are being surrounded in course quarters, you probably aren't getting many headshots, which might make it seem like less damage.
But yes, each time the circle shrinks, zombies can spawn and each time someone loots, they will spawn. So if 5 people loot at once, you're going to have probably 30 zombies all in close quarters very quickly.
You can`t get many headshots if 12+ radiated, 4+ bloated, and 2+ ferals run into You in a small circle. You either run or shoot to kill while running around like possessed.
Pernicious
New member
Most often screamer packs. My friend and I were playing last night - we'd set aside the day to cook, craft, sort, etc. Of course, with forges and fires, and chemistry sets going, we got a couple rounds of screamers. I got most of the resulting pack of zombies before they even got to 10 blocks. The handful of irradiated that ran fast and couldn't be one shot, he got, but if they had got to melee range, I probably would have switched to spear.How often are you fighting anything at 30 blocks? And more importantly.. WHY?!
That's probably the ideal. If I only used that example, you could equally accuse me of contriving a comparison. But there are others:
1. Normal wandering packs, it's not even close. There are no irradiated there and fewer ferals. I usually wipe out the rest of the pack while he's still working on his first.
2. In some bigger POIs, where we know that waking the room causes a mass rush, we usually agree that I'll sneak in, clear the easily visible ones first, then either everyone else comes in and we take on the rest noisy. Or if I wake the room, everyone just runs in to bail me out while I switch to my spear.
One of the things I love about this game is how flexible it is, and how it lets people do what they want, in innovative ways. There is no rigid roles, one "meta". I've seen people follow the torches and clear a POI as intended. I've seen others use timed charges blow holes on the outside of walls then throw down barbed wire to clear the worst part of POIs. I've seen people carry damn iron doors and hatches around as a way to chokepoint POIs.
Everything has a purpose. Maybe not in a specific player's play style, and maybe not in every situation, but I love the fact the game is so open
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TWORDY
Active member
I love the fact that the topic gets some traction.
On my side, I may only add also that every weapon might have slightly different damage models based on the distance to a target. Bullet velocity and drop-off may vary as well.
I would love a completely different ammo type for Sniper Rifles. Mainly, because, some of my mates ain`t willing to share their precious 7.62. Also, this move could add to a damage model and crafting cost flexibility.
Players love huge backpacks with lots of items inside... keep em busy.
On my side, I may only add also that every weapon might have slightly different damage models based on the distance to a target. Bullet velocity and drop-off may vary as well.
I would love a completely different ammo type for Sniper Rifles. Mainly, because, some of my mates ain`t willing to share their precious 7.62. Also, this move could add to a damage model and crafting cost flexibility.
Players love huge backpacks with lots of items inside... keep em busy.
theFlu
Well-known member
Hmm.. my screamers tend to get to 5-10m before I register them; the packs they summon end up spawning behind fences and around corners. You ain't wrong in any of your examples, but for my playstyle 30m is a stretch for all of them. If I'm lucky enough to have 30m between myself and a wandering horde, I just walk that 10m in and fight between 10-20
Your needs for a sniper should be a rounding error for any machine gun user, if they're unwilling to share otherwise, just start using a MG yourself for a day
Riamus
Well-known member
As a side note, I've been using Izayo's gun mod and am thoroughly enjoying the new guns even if they aren't really much different from the vanilla guns in terms of damage and uses. But they sound amazing and look great and just having other options is fun. You also get a couple more ammo types to keep track of. This doesn't solve the OP issue with rifles being more niche than most other guns, but it still makes them more fun, imo.
TWORDY
Active member
They won`t let me use their MGs as a final solution for Zeds or my chests are going to get plunderedYour needs for a sniper should be a rounding error for any machine gun user, if they're unwilling to share otherwise, just start using a MG yourself for a day
. With friends like these, You don't want any enemies 
.Pernicious
New member
Haha, early game, I was opposite. I cringed every time I heard his AK go off. Like, I could have taken out the Zombie with one round, you used a short burst!They won`t let me use their MGs as a final solution for Zeds or my chests are going to get plundered
Now mid game, there's less friction. He gets all the standard 7.62 we find, and it's more than he needs. I make a very small amount of 7.62 AP - as in less than one stack for a full week, including horde night. We're not far off being able to make HP/AP for everyone.
TWORDY
Active member
Since I was the one picking up the loot bags during Blood Moon... things are going kind of rough. A very simple explanation that I dropped to the ground by accident near the loot bag wasn't enough
.