Is that so?
People who support this change are supporting a dumber less sandbox-y game in favor of an arcade game, that in conjunction with the magazine system has pushed 7d2d WAY into that field.
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PC What was the point of the water change?
- Thread starter GlassDeviant
- Start date
Is that so?
People who support this change are supporting a dumber less sandbox-y game in favor of an arcade game, that in conjunction with the magazine system has pushed 7d2d WAY into that field.
Riamus
Well-known member
Not having glass jars that were pretty pointless does not in any logical way connect the dots you're trying to connect.
That is at least something. Doesn't take away the nonsense of not being able to scoop up some water and carry it home (with some sort of container, maybe? Like a jar or some such?) but still. That's good to know.
True. Buying a pot was the first thing I did, and it was no problem at all. They're dirt cheap, and apparently every trader has them now. But as for wasted loot, I don't see the issue here. Just like with plenty of other stuff which you eventually don't want anymore there's always the option of not taking it with you.
And personally, I find the challenge of overcoming the chance for dysentery (as with my 3 water stages example) much more interesting than the challenge of getting hold of a cooking pot.
Especially since once you have one getting drinkable water doesn't seem to much of a problem anymore. You just have to be very specific about how you go about it and before the first week is over having water for all kinds of puposes stops being an issue, and will remain so for the entire rest of the game.
Not sure if this is really the result TFPs were hoping for. Maybe, who knows. To me it just seems kind of meh.
Jugginator
Moderator
This is one major reason behind our decision to remove them. We would have had to remove them from a ton of loot tables, because with all the lootables we can loot, a tiny chance becomes a higher chance because 200 rolls at like 5% still nets quite a bit, then you have the return of a jar after drinking. There are some good points, but wanted to point out why we did that and some of the thought process behind it.in fact, we tried several iterations of lowering where jars/water would spawn, rarities, it just always equated to having a mass of water by day 7.
Honestly, a lot of players actually didn't keep jars often and kept throwing them away, it was inventory clutter.
They're talking about the chance to get dysentery when you drink from lakes/rivers. The thing is dysentery is pretty easy to cure and the chance is low. Also, if you're lucky enough to find a helmet filter mod, you can drink from bodies of water all you want without worry.
Roland
Moderator
So Warmer and Riamus each represent a few thousand gamers? Their posts don’t even mean that they see less inventory clutter as the best REASON for the change, it only shows that they enjoy less inventory clutter as a BENEFIT of the change.
Also, TFP have never ever claimed to be making any kind of simulation here. You decry aspects of the game shifting toward the arcade end of the spectrum as if it is some shocking detestable thing. I fully expect the game to land fully in the arcade realm by time they are finished with modifications to make it more sim-like being left to modders who want to shifted that direction.
If A21 is helping you adjust your expectations away from a survival sim then that is all for the best. This game was never designed to be a sim nor have the developers ever claimed to be focused on realism. Fun over realism has always been their mantra and that usually results in a game well within the arcade realm. There’s nothing wrong with that.
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P1. Yes, every poster here represents a thousand gamers at least who can't be bothered one way or another, but if that doesn't make you happy, if you go onto youtube you can find youtube comments with a couple thousand likes saying how they feel about the TFP and their nerf bat. If your too busy, I'll just say comments on youtube overwhelming are negative regarding these kinds of changes made over time.
P2,P3: There you go, I feel good to read some honesty around here, I'm sure the 7d2d-fortnight edition is going to be bangers.
Right. I'm totally fine with that. Afaic, there should be all kinds of different problems in a game like this, along with various ways to overcome them. Polluted and dirty rivers and lakes, perfect. As long as things make sense and don't get too gamey. Which is, sadly, what I see it A21. I don't think it's terrible, it just could have been better, I believe.
I'm assuming since the original post about this included the need for painkillers and bandages that your going to take damage for this somehow. IDK though.
AtomicUs5000
New member
A good point. Replacement with a craftable leather flask that is not in any loot table would solve that.
Old Crow
Well-known member
How about changing the Dew Collectors to provide up to 4 or 5 water in a 24 hour in-game period? Having to build tons of these things if you get bad RNG finding murky water isn't fun. Going from 3 water per collector to 4 or 5 per collector was be reasonable but still punishing.
RipClaw
Well-known member
I guess I'm in the minority. I always kept empty jars. To make room, I often filled the empty jars at a water source and then stacked them with the looted murky water.
In the Undead Legacy mod, this behavior came in handy for me, as you can only craft empty jars very late in the game. Also, you couldn't fill them from a water source, but had to fill them from faucets, toilets, shower heads, or fire hydrants.
The empty jars have apparently been replaced by old sandwiches. I have no shortage of raw materials for antibiotics.
theFlu
Well-known member
How about a Bucket? You can carry murky water home, and filter it through you drinking hat. Just not the water filter at the dew collector, as that one can only process dew. It's in the name, "Water filter", see? So, no crafting, but infinite drinking water wherever you want it.
Drinking Murky Water, either from a jar or from a lake does 5 HP worth of damage per sip (+10 water. -5 HP). So, drink water, damage your gut, fix your gut by bandaging your left arm.. just like Bear Grylls. Or eat your vitamins beforehand, avoid the damage and the disease.
OccamsShavingCream
New member
The fact that other resource containers are not implemented is not a reason to remove ones that are. "Consistently bad" is the wrong kind of consistency.
In the past, players could always see things that weren't fully baked out and know that this game is a work in progress, but actually removing functionality is a step backwards, not forwards.
Even with this change, in SP on insane/75% loot I can find enough water past day two. It just means you focus on ransacking different things. Water becomes an infinite resource once you get enough dew collectors, so the only actual change is that in the first few days, players are forced to hit the traders for a pot (if they haven't memorized with houses have them) and do a bunch of quests to get water filters. Past that it's just tedium, which could be bypassed in a20 and before by just throwing a bunch of sand in a furnace to make jars.
In a20, the first day is a mad scramble to find resources and get on top of something solid so you don't get massacred in the night. Once you finally get set up and take stock of what you have, the decision is: what water do I drink, what do I save for tomorrow, what do I turn into glue for armor and pipe weapons? On day two, if you found everything to make a forge and found some sand or broke a bunch of windows, you could usually get enough jars to make what you need, but between red tea, glue, Molotov's and cornbread (if you were slumming it and didn't get enough animals) it was still something you had to keep track of.
Good gameplay comes from asking players to make interesting choices. This change removes choice from the player and forces a specific playstyle. Between this change and the skill magazines change (which turns skill unlocks into a lottery, further removing player choice) player agency is badly reduced in a21.
And why does a 'dew collector' need a filter, anyway? Dew is condensed moisture from the air. It's literally already naturally distilled. Even rain is safe to drink without boiling.
What does someone who literally made an account and signed up on this board to give negative feedback about this change count? I've been here since you could craft in a Minecraft grid or cast shotgun barrels out tin cans once you made a clay mold and never felt compelled to put in my two cents before. This one finally got my lazy ass to try to improve things.
BFT2020
Well-known member
Uh, no its not. Rain water can collect pollutants before it even reaches ground level.
AtomicUs5000
New member
That's true in real life.
In the game, I suppose these pollutants are coming from the same air the character is breathing?
theFlu
Well-known member
Yeh, that and for a "dew collector" the same surface that is condensing the water will also gather all of the airborne particulate in the neighborhood. And then store the condensed water in a semi-open lukewarm container which is reasonably fertile grounds for all kinds of life forms, bacteria, mosquito larvae, whatnot..
Which makes it exactly the same as the "river" down the street, whose water is unusable .. wait.
Roland
Moderator
The fact that we never had one complaint or a single eyelash batted over all the other consumable containers being abstractions over 9 years shows that the design isn’t bad. The bad feeling you and others are getting is the normal aversion to change. If jars had been treated as they are from the beginning there would be about as much outcry about it as we’ve seen for every other container that shows up in your inventory when full but disappears when empty.
1) Anyone can reduce any mechanic in the game down to a tedious sequence of repetitive mouse clicks. The fact that you find the new mechanic of overcoming the water survival problem more tedious than the old method is immaterial. Everyone finds the fun in any sequence of mouse clicks to a different degree. It’s already known that some like the change and some don’t. That was anticipated long before the release.
2) Everyone plays Day One differently. Thanks for sharing your version of Day One. In my version of Day One I almost always had many jars by the end of day one regardless of sand or windows or forges and it seems that was the case for many others as well. Once the forge was complete there were so many jars available that there were never any choices involved with how to use water. Some important recipes didn’t even use clean water. When there is enough abundance to do everything then there are no choices.
3) This change creates tough choices. Every update when a change is made, those who initially dislike the change think that it creates less choice and more forced gameplay but after some time goes by it becomes apparent that all of the perceived restrictions and forced non choices were just a product of unfamiliarity with the changes. It’s happened so many times now.
In my opinion, within a few months, most if not all game play styles will once again be present as innovative players adapt and figure things out. Some people will never think that the series of mouse clicks involved in building dew collectors is fun. That’s given. But the devs like it and are betting enough players will also like it.