PC Poll - Which progression system did you prefer?

[mstdv inc]

Interesting results so far... seems that 80% of active forum users prefer other system than the new one...

I am atively following the forum, but I will not participate in this survey for two reasons.
1. I haven't played with LBD
2. Too few people will vote.
Right now, about 50 thousand people are playing on steam at the same time. More than 100 thousand people can play the game during the day. 100-200-300 votes in the poll won't tell you what the majority thinks.

 

[cammel]

The best LBD I ever used in this game was the Logical Progression Mod by LazerBlade.  You progressed by using and repairing, crafting gave no xp.

 

[Lasher]

Just having taken the poll, and not having read the conversation, I think there are options missing.

I like Learn by Looting and all the magazines. I think the magazines found a nice way to draw out the game.

I like Learn by Perks. I thought that system worked reasonably well, though sometimes I am frustrated at which perks were with which abilities (like Strength) or that they're tied to an ability.

I'm okay with the idea of Learn by Doing, but not to the exclusion of the others. I've played on a server that swapped in Learn by Doing and I didn't think it played very well. Then there are the notable goofy things like crafting 100 stone axes.

Since TFP likes to experiment, I wonder if a mix of the three might be the best. I think the approaches could be integrated a little. That is, when you take some of the remaining Perks I think it could come with a little bit of magazine-like improvement, maybe as if you had read 2-3 magazines. I think there could also be some milestones that represent Learning by Doing that also generate some magazine-like points. For instance, when you craft your first iron tool, your first steel tool, kill your 100th zombie with a club, etc.

If you make me pick one, I'm sticking with Learn by Looting for now just because I want to see how it plays out over a long game. I'd put Learn by Perks 2nd. Then I'd put Learn by Doing last.

This is the point of the coversation - how do people think it sghould work - what can be done to improve it?

Cheers for the input zztong.

 

[meganoth]

Third option was really meant to represent the current system.

I know we still have "Skills" as such that we put points into - but for me the way that works is even more bizzare - I put points into, for instance Sledgehammers, and that somehow makes me magically find more sledgehammer magazines? Why? It just seems a little nonsensicle.

The perks main function is to boost your powers. The small buff to magazine finding is just a safeguard for single players mainly for bad luck and could actually be removed. Would make the game harder for novice players though and vanilla has to be a good starting point for new players.

Remember that crafting of weapons and armor in the last alphas was practically nonexistent. You almost always found better weapons before you could craft them. Crafting was inconsequential. Now you make it sound like the ultimate goal of progression in A21 is the crafting and anything else does not matter and the new system is simply Learn by Reading. For me it is still a perk system. Only recipe learning is handled by some magazines.

Surely a better way would be if when looting we found some sort of research papers that we could use to invest into ANY branch of crafting.

That would also solve the co-op problem in that the research could be brought back to base and shared and skill investment would make no difference to it.

I have been around since Alpha 9? This is the first time they have made such a huge shift in the game-play loop. It's also very concerning that this is supposed to be near the end of said alpha, and we are getting overhauls this late in development.

It isn't. A16 to A17 with the complete perk overhaul was a much bigger change than this. A17 to A18 was also changing the perk system and waswhere the weapon system overhaul was (or was that A17 too?).

The difference is that only this change now seems to have affected **your** game-play loop. For me not much has changed compared to A20, I don't care much whether I find or craft my weapons.

 

[Vintorez]

Learn by doing excluding crafting, basically what Darkness Falls does.

I don't mind learn by looting except for how much it clogs inventory if you're playing with friends and need to save magazines for them.

Otherwise I think I like learn by looting more than learn by perk investment.

 

[Mister Forgash]

My favorite part of LBD is also it's greatest downfall, which is why I do not support it as the vanilla option. Character investment.

It feels really cool when you hit those mile stones of.. Athletics 20, or Fisticuffs 40, or whatever. Eventually, one day you're at 100 And it feels great, but it took you all play-through to do that. Then you find some sweet new piece of loot and you want to try it out- Heck, maybe you want to know how it'll do if you revolve your build around it. .. Now you're going to have to grind for another eternity! D= - But with the learn by perks, you sip a forgettin' elixir and get right to trying it out- and I -don't- think that's bad design, just less hardcore.

The hardcore audience is generally not the target, and that's okay!- we're the ones passionate enough to mod things to better suit ourselves anyhow.

 

[Greymantle]

The difference is that only this change now seems to have affected **your** game-play loop. For me not much has changed compared to A20, I don't care much whether I find or craft my weapons.

Well yes, that is why I'm here trying to get them to see why it's so bad. The problem is they decided to change the loop after 10 years, and that is different in my book. I don't recall any changes that changed how I play the game. Gate locks no, learn by use no, perk change no, book/magazines yes. This is nothing like they have done before. Hell, the loot drops were dominated by books/magazines over any other loot I was getting. They are forcing me to use the trader to get the filter. How do I get the dukes, I don't do quests? I don't use the traders at all. Do I wait for the super rare filter drop? The looting free style game-play is almost dead now in vanilla. The game's balance between the traders and the rest of the game-play is WAY unbalanced, and they don't care. Every version patch shows this, the traders are their main focus for the last few versions and moving forward it seems.

My favorite part of LBD is also it's greatest downfall, which is why I do not support it as the vanilla option. Character investment.

It feels really cool when you hit those mile stones of.. Athletics 20, or Fisticuffs 40, or whatever. Eventually, one day you're at 100 And it feels great, but it took you all play-through to do that. Then you find some sweet new piece of loot and you want to try it out- Heck, maybe you want to know how it'll do if you revolve your build around it. .. Now you're going to have to grind for another eternity! D= - But with the learn by perks, you sip a forgettin' elixir and get right to trying it out- and I -don't- think that's bad design, just less hardcore.

The hardcore audience is generally not the target, and that's okay!- we're the ones passionate enough to mod things to better suit ourselves anyhow.

How is this any different from having to grind books to learn a new skill, which is a lot more random.

 

[meganoth]

Well yes, that is why I'm here trying to get them to see why it's so bad. The problem is they decided to change the loop after 10 years, and that is different in my book. I don't recall any changes that changed how I play the game. Gate locks no, learn by use no, perk change no, book/magazines yes. This is nothing like they have done before. Hell, the loot drops were dominated by books/magazines over any other loot I was getting. They are forcing me to use the trader to get the filter. How do I get the dukes, I don't do quests? I don't use the traders at all. Do I wait for the super rare filter drop? The looting free style game-play is almost dead now in vanilla. The game's balance between the traders and the rest of the game-play is WAY unbalanced, and they don't care. Every version patch shows this, the traders are their main focus for the last few versions and moving forward it seems.

Regarding the trader I am fully on your side. I think they need to tone down the rewards and distribute that money into the loot boxes of the POIs.

I don't know if they will listen to the argument that a no-trader game isn't possible anymore. But I am pretty sure that the balance between SP and up to 8 players MP is important to them and I think that is currently very far from a balanced state. And the solution could be to place more loot inside POIs instead of into the quest reward

But I need more playtesting myself to make sure I have a good case to bring forward. I don't expect them to listen to someone who is just on day 5 or 6 in his first game with a group.

 

[seagas]

Third option was really meant to represent the current system.

I know we still have "Skills" as such that we put points into - but for me the way that works is even more bizzare - I put points into, for instance Sledgehammers, and that somehow makes me magically find more sledgehammer magazines? Why? It just seems a little nonsensicle.

Surely a better way would be if when looting we found some sort of research papers that we could use to invest into ANY branch of crafting.

That would also solve the co-op problem in that the research could be brought back to base and shared and skill investment would make no difference to it.

How is that different from Alpha 20? The current system, keeps things random with the XP points helping you in the areas you want to lean towards. One of the many ways the keep the replayability high. I really liking this system, IMO Alpha 20 wsa too easy.

 

[boban]

How is that different from Alpha 20? The current system, keeps things random with the XP points helping you in the areas you want to lean towards. One of the many ways the keep the replayability high. I really liking this system, IMO Alpha 20 wsa too easy.

It's no different if your preferred play style is looting-shooting and questing as main activity. I was mostly building/crafting/mining with occasional looting and questing in previous alphas. In current iteration it's hard as you got to find 5 magazines for the forge and 10 magazines to get to workbench, which depending on RNG can take a while and is only accessible by looting or trading.

(And yea, A20 was too easy, so at least slowing down progression a bit is good)

 

[Mister Forgash]

How is this any different from having to grind books to learn a new skill, which is a lot more random.

Well, like you said, there's the randomness to it- which in it's current state, I don't think is that bad- I remember when you would feel paralyzed for weeks if you couldn't find a forge schematic, I think this was bad randomness.

Yes, the magazines are random, but it's weighted in such a way that you shouldn't have to worry about not having a forge by day 20+, I'd go so far as to propose that it's a good kind of random if it feels obtainable in between 5 and 10 days, depending on how lucky you are, how you target PoIs, what perks you took, your time management, ability to keep your character healthy enough to stay out hunting for those mags.
How that's different from the other styles? .. Well LBD is predictable- but grindy, and I'd say it's more punishing if you change your mid way through progression and start pushing for a new playstyle
And LBP is even more predictable, but faster, and puts the most control over progression into the direct control of the player.

 

[armidil0]

Honestly I wish we could get a combo. Craft by looting and learn by doing for tools, weapons, and guns.

 

[Riamus]

How is this any different from having to grind books to learn a new skill, which is a lot more random.

You don't have to grind for magazines.  You can get them naturally as you loot.  On the other hand, in LBD you must grind your points in order to progress.  Except in something like fighting, most skills do not level up through natural use enough to keep up with your level or the game.  Crafting, for example, means you are crafting dozens or hundreds or items that you would never have crafted if it wasn't required to increase your skill.  That is grinding.  Getting magazines while you're looting as you go about your business is not grinding.  You can grind magazines if you want but that's a choice and not a choice you really have with LBD.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

You can grind magazines if you want but that's a choice and not a choice you really have with LBD.

 
That is true, for the past alphas where things were very basic. LBD could utilize trader missions and magazines these days. A simple example would be to find a magazine about digging. This opens up the ability to improve digging a little by doing a few treasure hunts with the trader if you choose which in turn levels up that skill. To level up more, read the next level of magazine, then just as example, require the next set of treasure hunts be in the desert, then in the snow, then in the wasteland. After having read each level of magazine and having completed the associated LBD for each, you can then choose a perk related to digging. There are other ways to solve the problem besides having to craft a shovel and dig a million blocks needlessly.

 

[Riamus]

 
That is true, for the past alphas where things were very basic. LBD could utilize trader missions and magazines these days. A simple example would be to find a magazine about digging. This opens up the ability to improve digging a little by doing a few treasure hunts with the trader if you choose which in turn levels up that skill. To level up more, read the next level of magazine, then just as example, require the next set of treasure hunts be in the desert, then in the snow, then in the wasteland. After having read each level of magazine and having completed the associated LBD for each, you can then choose a perk related to digging. There are other ways to solve the problem besides having to craft a shovel and dig a million blocks needlessly.

Right.  A hybrid system can be the better solution, though you'll still have people who don't like the particular hybridization used.  They can't please everyone. 

 

[boban]

Crafting, for example, means you are crafting dozens or hundreds or items that you would never have crafted if it wasn't required to increase your skill.  That is grinding. 

People keep bringing it up, but I never had to do it in A16.4 (best alpha for me).

Getting magazines while you're looting as you go about your business is not grinding.

Unless you are more of a builder/miner/hunter than looter-quester. Then it's a grind.

(i.e., seems that this version aligns more with your preferred play style, so it doesn't feel like a grind to you. That's great for you. It doesn't align with my preferred playstyle, so it is a grind)

 

[Greymantle]

You don't have to grind for magazines.  You can get them naturally as you loot.  On the other hand, in LBD you must grind your points in order to progress.  Except in something like fighting, most skills do not level up through natural use enough to keep up with your level or the game.  Crafting, for example, means you are crafting dozens or hundreds or items that you would never have crafted if it wasn't required to increase your skill.  That is grinding.  Getting magazines while you're looting as you go about your business is not grinding.  You can grind magazines if you want but that's a choice and not a choice you really have with LBD.

 I see this a lot and knew some that did it. I'm not a min-maxer I played the game sandbox style and my skills came naturally by use. With every system, there is abuse of it, but the old system felt right and worked in this setting. It sure wasn't perfect, as any of them are. It was a lot less in your face like today's magazine system. For me, the new system makes me forget I'm playing a game too much for my liking. (Immersion breaking)

 

[Jihh]

My main problem with the progression system is that due to the item mods usually a lvl 5-6 item from a previous tier is better than a lvl 1-2 from the newer tier. That problem exists in A20 and A21 and thus both systems are kinda flawed in my opinion. It makes a comparison really difficult. For now I'm not completely happy with any of those progression systems, because of that flaw. But I can imagine that all three of them can be implemented in a good way. While I find the new system interesting and like to experience it more, it currently makes progress too fast for my taste. In A20 I had to sacrifice stuff to get other stuff on a higher level, but in A21 I can just put a single point in every stuff I consider important and then they will level up quite fast. I'll have to see what I prefer, but as I explained, even after more testing a definitive answer will be hard to give.

 

[Riamus]

My main problem with the progression system is that due to the item mods usually a lvl 5-6 item from a previous tier is better than a lvl 1-2 from the newer tier. 

Yeah, they needed to fix that.  There is no reason to make something of the next tier until quality level 3-4 because it just isn't any improvement.

 

[Roland]

My main problem with the progression system is that due to the item mods usually a lvl 5-6 item from a previous tier is better than a lvl 1-2 from the newer tier. That problem exists in A20 and A21 and thus both systems are kinda flawed in my opinion. It makes a comparison really difficult. For now I'm not completely happy with any of those progression systems, because of that flaw. But I can imagine that all three of them can be implemented in a good way. While I find the new system interesting and like to experience it more, it currently makes progress too fast for my taste. In A20 I had to sacrifice stuff to get other stuff on a higher level, but in A21 I can just put a single point in every stuff I consider important and then they will level up quite fast. I'll have to see what I prefer, but as I explained, even after more testing a definitive answer will be hard to give.

This problem could be solved by limiting attachments to one slot and removing tier 6 quality from primitive items. Iron should be limited to two slots for all quality levels with tier 6 allowing a third and the steel limited to three slots at all quality levels with tier 6 allowing a fourth.