PC Poll - Which progression system did you prefer?

[AtomicUs5000]

This problem could be solved by limiting attachments to one slot and removing tier 6 quality from primitive items. Iron should be limited to two slots for all quality levels with tier 6 allowing a third and the steel limited to three slots at all quality levels with tier 6 allowing a fourth. 

Makes too much sense.

 

[Riamus]

This problem could be solved by limiting attachments to one slot and removing tier 6 quality from primitive items. Iron should be limited to two slots for all quality levels with tier 6 allowing a third and the steel limited to three slots at all quality levels with tier 6 allowing a fourth. 

Yes, something along those lines would work better, though you'd have just add many company's with that as with jars because people want to use item mods on their stuff right from early game.  So do I, though I'm not sure I'd be against that change.  I'd have to try it.

 

[Roland]

Makes too much sense.

Probably easily modded in too. Definitely easily done as a voluntary limitation to test it.

 

[Gr.o.m.]

I really hate the new system, not because it is something new.

But because it takes away descissens from me. I can no longer decide to spend points or money to get a blueprint, I have to wait until some dev has made that descissen for me, that at that point of the game I get it.

It also feels like the new systems prolongs the stoneage.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

It is what i expected in MP coop. It´s really hard for people who absolutly don´t like to go looting to keep up. Even though we do bring home magazines, they simply can´t keep up. Wich makes the game uninteresting for them. Bringing the magazines home is quite the challenge in early game aswell due to inventory limitations. We usually are 3 people going out and 2 mining/building/cooking/farming/crafting. Can´t do that anymore. Everyone needs to go looting to keep things even.

And even if we would accept that some stay behind a lot in the crafting tier, the parts for weapons/armor/tools are a problem, those seem to be tied to the skill aswell in loot. We have tons of parts for the skills of the people who go looting. And not a single pistol part or steel tool part and one steel armor part on day 21 wich are 3 of the crafting skills the stay at home people have. Plenty of parts for the skills that the players that go looting have. More than we ever need, like 20 steel spear parts for example.

I can only hope that Khaine will someday release a standalone of the DF skill system as a mod or someone else a mod that can even out the gap between looting and not looting players with the magazines. Otherwise we need to find a new game for MP Coop.

I really like the fact that it slows down progression quite a bit. Not everywhere but the pace is overall slower. It´s not immersive at all, wich sucks, and it kills the Coop for us though.

Sad to see the freedom of how you can play this game gone. In SP you have no choice at all. You must go looting constantly to keep up with your gamestage. In SP it´s basically a linear game now. Every playtrough will be the same playstyle: Questing, questing, a little bit of mining and building for the horde and then again questing, questing and more questing. And exactly not having to do this, is what made this game so good.

 

[Vaeliorin]

And even if we would accept that some stay behind a lot in the crafting tier, the parts for weapons/armor/tools are a problem, those seem to be tied to the skill aswell in loot. We have tons of parts for the skills of the people who go looting. And not a single pistol part or steel tool part and one steel armor part on day 21 wich are 3 of the crafting skills the stay at home people have. Plenty of parts for the skills that the players that go looting have. More than we ever need, like 20 steel spear parts for example.

I've put about 40 hours into A21 now, one spear build for 313, and I started over with an Int build for 317, both with maxed out Miner 69'er, and I've found a total of 4 steel tool parts.  I had about 40 steel spear parts in the spear playthrough, and have 60-70 combined robotics/baton parts in my Int playthrough.

Pretty sure I've found more motor tool parts than steel tool parts.  Either I'm cursed, or steel tool parts are exceedingly rare.

Also, the specialization thing really seems to screw with loot drops.  I'm on Day 9 of my Int playthrough (I play 2 hour days) and I just found a q2 wrench.  I've had a q1 wrench, and I can craft a q2 (but didn't see the point.)  Found probably half a dozen q1/q2 stun batons (all after I'd already made a q5).  Found a q6 Iron Pickaxe in the snow on like Day 3, a q6 Iron Fireaxe in the Desert on Day 8, and everything else is still q3 or lower pipe garbage.

It really seems like one will have to specialize in everything to eventually get decent drops for Salvage Tools, Turrets, etc. that aren't directly a part of their desired kit.

Edit:  I just checked and I have 52 robotics parts and 39 baton parts (after making a q5 stun baton) in my Int playthrough.  2 steel tool parts, and you need 20 to make a full set of tools (5 each for Pick/Axe/Shovel, 5 for Ratchet.)  I won't ever need to make another baton, and given that a q5 turret costs 50 duct tape, I doubt I'll ever make more than 2 of those.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Accidental Double Post

 

[Riamus]

I really hate the new system, not because it is something new.

But because it takes away descissens from me. I can no longer decide to spend points or money to get a blueprint, I have to wait until some dev has made that descissen for me, that at that point of the game I get it.

It also feels like the new systems prolongs the stoneage.

You can still buy the magazines.  It may not unlock something immediately like a schematic but you also don't have to worry about never finding the schematic.  You'll keep getting magazines.  It just might take longer.

It is supposed to prolong the stone age.

It is true that the magazines take away the variance between games where you might get a lucky find early game.  I'm not a big fan of that but I can live with it.

 

[fragtzack]

In a15, the last great iteration of Learn by Doing...

Every game started I ended up grinding at the start to raise skills. Streamers were doing the same. Almost everyone was grinding just to raise skills.

 I hated it, no thanks.

 

[aleos]

Read a magazine to unlock the next stage of learn by doing.
Learn by doing is then a set of challenges such as having to kill x number of y type zombies with a shotgun for increased shotguns skill. Challenges are more difficult within each stage.
Reach the end of these stages to finally choose some special perk.

I agree here. That would be amazing what comes closest to real life but still arcade-ish and fun. First u get theoretical knowledge (reading stuff) and then getting better and better by practising (lbd - excluding crafting or driving skill though, but each weapon fighting at least, scavenging, farming, mining, salvaging and somehow building). Hope undead legacy or wotw will be able to combine both systems.

Not really understand why players don't like skill based progression. Valheim has is and it's well received by the playerbase.

 

[Ananais]

My thoughts so far, which I am happy to see many others also stating, is that a hybrid system would be preferable.

I have not had as much time to play this week as I would have liked, but so far I really like learn by looting in both my single and multiplayer games. I never was a fan of crafting quality being tied to the weapon skill lines and am finding that, so far, I really like this change.

What I would like to see would be a three way hybrid system;

• LBL would remain in place for crafting quality, unlocks, etc. as it is in game now.
  
• Weapon / harvesting / mining skills would be moved to LBD. This would be specifically for the damage, reload speed and weapon specific skills.
  
• Remaining skills, buffs, perks, etc. would be skill point based. We could potentially have these skills be more generic and apply to, for example, all melee or ranged, and use the magazine sets for more specific skills, which is already partially the case for them now.
  

There is also no real reason IMO that we could not have overlap between the systems, though balancing that would probably be nightmarish.

 

[Mister Forgash]

Prefacing this, I have 0 expectation that TFP will make any changes aside from tweaks on their skill system at this point, but as long as we're talking dreams..

I want to voice that I also think that a hybrid system would be ideal for a player like me, but I don't know if that would be good for the overall player base.

The idealized vision I have, which may have holes in it, I'm not a designer, it's not fully fleshed out- would have perks gated behind 3 factors;

Level: [I would limit the player's ability to push straight to their end-build perk/s and 'encourage' them to spread points around a little while they wait.]

Knowledge(Of Related Tree): [Effectively, magazines - Something that represents your character had to read things to come up with the idea to improve]

LBD [However much doing that needs to be done to make you improve would need playing around with, but the idea is with other factors also determining your ability to progress, you wouldn't feel compelled to spam craft axes when you only need to make 5 to hit next tier, but you still need to read 10 Tools Today mags.]

.. I know LBD is cursed, but there's something that feels good when you've punched your 200th zombie, you see your skill tick, and you're just like, "YEAH! - I'm a Martial -Effing- Artist! RAAHH!"

 

[Jihh]

This problem could be solved by limiting attachments to one slot and removing tier 6 quality from primitive items. Iron should be limited to two slots for all quality levels with tier 6 allowing a third and the steel limited to three slots at all quality levels with tier 6 allowing a fourth. 

I'd love to try that.
In my current playthrough I completely skip iron tools. While they would be upgrades from level 3 (or 4) I would also need to more slots on my belt (pickaxe, axe and hammer instead of just a stone axe). But since I don't spec into mining (aside from a single point so I get more tool magazines) I won't go and farm materials anyway. The amount of materials I get from questing is enough for my early to mid game needs (for now I spend my bloodmoon nights on POI I lightly modify to my needs). Therefor those two save slots are more beneficial than opening doors a bit faster (and most quests don't even need to do that).

Also progression should be slower overall. I crafted a lvl 1 stone axe at the start, found a lvl 2 soon after, changed to a lvl 3 on day two or three and then found a level 6 one before I even found a level 4 or 5. Soon after I got a level 5 iron pickaxe as a quest reward (I've kept it in my storage for now, just in case I need some mining). I wouldn't mind for each tier to take ~14 days.

 

[Jihh]

I really like the fact that it slows down progression quite a bit. Not everywhere but the pace is overall slower.

Imho (at lest) in single player it's the contrary. While in A20 spreading your talent points was a waste, because you slightly slowed down your main skills without any noteworthy progress in the other trees, we now can spend single points in all the things we want magazines from and thus speed up the overall progress a lot with just a little slow down of our main tree.

I'm just over level 30 and can craft anything I need in a decent quality. Try being indepent from trader and other players on level 30 in A20 and still being able to craft anything you need.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Also progression should be slower overall. I crafted a lvl 1 stone axe at the start, found a lvl 2 soon after, changed to a lvl 3 on day two or three and then found a level 6 one before I even found a level 4 or 5. Soon after I got a level 5 iron pickaxe as a quest reward (I've kept it in my storage for now, just in case I need some mining). I wouldn't mind for each tier to take ~14 days.

Personally, I wouldn't care if they slowed down weapon progression, but I would hate them slowing down tool progression.  But I play completely differently than you apparently do.  I spend 8-10 hours each in game day mining or cutting down trees, usually.  If my first A21 game, I'd gathered over 100k clay by day 7.

Doing all that with stone tools would suck.  I wouldn't mind if they added in a scrap tool tier like many mods do/did, though, I'd just like a proper pick for mining.

 

[Cadamier]

I liked Learn By Doing and Learn by Perks, this one is confusing.   So - do I have it right in that if I put a point into 'bows'/'agility' I should get mostly those books from the moment I pick that perk?  At least thats how I understand it.

The system seems to be skewing - because of the way I'm picking them - in totally 'random' directions!  For instance - Prior to the change 'we'd' pick "for the first 4 points" - like lucky looter, healing factor, 'cooking' (to make bacon & eggs) whereas some would pick other things etc.  Cause prior to A21 this would give you the best chance at survival.  Albeit others would go strength and clubs and such... So, how's the system responding to this type of 'random placement'?  From my POV it's lagging.  I put one point into cooking and still getting a lot of cooking books!  Maybe it's the way their weighted?!?  IE: Early picks are weighted the heaviest and therefore you get mostly that?

OH!  By the way - where are the 'classes' that are constantly referred to in the release notes?!?  Or is that not in my UI?

Anyways - played a few games like the old way of picking perks and the 'book calculator' is way off!  If you pick one 'perk'/'tree' at a time it seems fine, but I'm sure I'm not the only one to wait a bit and put a few points in where every you want.  IE: I generally wait - sometimes due to combat, or because I forget or on purpose to place points because 'I need 2 or more points' to level up this one skill... The perk book picker seems to be lagging; at times from one to two 'picks.'

I 'generally' play a 'sneaking, slithering, bow using up to mid game assassin[then whatever gun I can get my slimy hands on the game]'/'crafter'/'miner type person' so I would guess that also complicates issues.  

I don't mind change - especially in single player.  But in our multiplayer game - it seems to still be skewed/lagging and possibly because of 'seemingly random' picking of perks - especially those not within the same 'tree.'  Anyone else experiencing this?  Or should we all just pick one single tree and live in that tree?

 

[Roland]

I liked Learn By Doing and Learn by Perks, this one is confusing.   So - do I have it right in that if I put a point into 'bows'/'agility' I should get mostly those books from the moment I pick that perk?  At least thats how I understand it.

No. It’s still mostly random. You will get a boost to the magazine and parts for the matching perk you took but it is not an overwhelming boost. Your results will still vary but you shouldn’t ever find yourself in a playthrough where you never find those things. It’s a safety net. You’ll get different results each time you play and, of course the type of container and location matters as well. 

 

[boban]

It’s still mostly random. You will get a boost to the magazine and parts for the matching perk you took but it is not an overwhelming boost. Your results will still vary but you shouldn’t ever find yourself in a playthrough where you never find those things.

The current implementation doesn't fit those criteria. I never found a magazine for some of the skills I didn't spec into (like armors, guns skills), but I did found a lot for a few (like food, traps and seed stuff - I found a lot of those, not putting points into related skills). In my current play I found very rarely any vehicle magazine till I put 3rd point into it. So based on that (and numerous other comments here and on reddit) it seems that current implementation biases some of the magazine probability a lot, while some are just frequent no matter what you do.

 

[Balthazod]

Most of the learning groups are irrelevant as perks add the relevant skills to weapons and the mags are for crafting only and as loot and rewards out level crafting skills its mute.  Except for work bench's and vehicles so the loot skills system controls the progress of the game slowing it down or in my experience making it stagnant.  All that it really done is make the game much slower and much much harder for the 1st 3days or so where you can cook anything until you find enough recipes to make basic food.  My 1st 2 attempt where on Navesgane and the trader was in the middle of nowhere and without access to a town I starved before I could find enough recipe to cook the mountain of food I had.  

 

[meganoth]

Most of the learning groups are irrelevant as perks add the relevant skills to weapons and the mags are for crafting only and as loot and rewards out level crafting skills its mute.  Except for work bench's and vehicles so the loot skills system controls the progress of the game slowing it down or in my experience making it stagnant.  All that it really done is make the game much slower and much much harder for the 1st 3days or so where you can cook anything until you find enough recipes to make basic food.  My 1st 2 attempt where on Navesgane and the trader was in the middle of nowhere and without access to a town I starved before I could find enough recipe to cook the mountain of food I had.  

What was that mountain of food made of?

Even without recipes you have a few basic recipes you can cook.