PC Tools Degrading in Quality again

[RipClaw]

Repair Kits will be a secondary fuel for your vehicles depending on where and how well you drive them...

Will be interesting to see how much damage my landings do to the gyrocopter. They are sometimes a bit rough.

 

[FA_Q2]

I agree with you about item degradation. I think it is needed badly. However, it seems to be a polarizing issue with as many people for it as are against it. Probably best left as a mod.

Why?

I do not see what it adds to the game since the loot is so varied, there are a ton of things that I loot and will never use simply because there is so much stuff that is outside your chosen perk trees.

I prefer the variety over the idea that I need to find the same thing over and over again, particularly when there is a random element involved AND I am required to find my top their loot rather than craft it.  For degradation to be added in I think such things would have to be removed.

What added feel is gained from looking for your tenth pick that game? 

 

[Roland]

Why?

I do not see what it adds to the game since the loot is so varied, there are a ton of things that I loot and will never use simply because there is so much stuff that is outside your chosen perk trees.

I prefer the variety over the idea that I need to find the same thing over and over again, particularly when there is a random element involved AND I am required to find my top their loot rather than craft it.  For degradation to be added in I think such things would have to be removed.

What added feel is gained from looking for your tenth pick that game? 

1) It would add more significance to looting and crafting. Without degradation, if you find a purple pick axe, you never have to craft or find another for the whole playthrough of that game. In fact, finding another one is depressing since you already have one and that find could've been something you don't yet have. Why ever craft a pick-axe if you already found a better one than you were able to craft? With degradation, eventually that pickaxe would be used up and disappear and then you would need to craft yourself a new one. If you were to find another one then that would be rewarding since you needed one.

2) It would make mods that add durability have actual relevance. Who cares about the current diamond edge mod that adds durability to your item when it is infinitely repairable? Instead of actually adding to the longevity of the item, it simply reduces the frequency with which you need to repair it which is meaningless because repairing is such an insignificant mechanic itself.

3) It would increase the situations in which the player must make do without. These situations add variety to gameplay. One of the staples of survival games is that you must often try to survive without the perfect set of tools and you need to get creative in how to overcome the threats with whatever you have on hand-- or use inferior items until you can replace them with high-quality items. Without degradation those situations are often never seen in the game.

4) It would make first-day or first-week super lucky finds be amazing but not balance-breaking since they wouldn't last for the entire rest of the playthrough. TFP could even increase the chance of finding a rare epic item on day one since it wouldn't stick around forever.

Those are four big reasons I can think of that appeal to me and why I think degradation is needed but like I said, some people just hate losing stuff they have and those reasons above are not enough to overcome their distaste of non-permanence. But I'd be happy with permanent degradation as a mod and not part of the base game.

In addition to the above for item degradation, food spoilage would also add many new dimensions that are a lot of fun (for some) and I would love for that to have been something they wanted for this game.

 

[Riamus]

1) It would add more significance to looting and crafting. Without degradation, if you find a purple pick axe, you never have to craft or find another for the whole playthrough of that game. In fact, finding another one is depressing since you already have one and that find could've been something you don't yet have. Why ever craft a pick-axe if you already found a better one than you were able to craft? With degradation, eventually that pickaxe would be used up and disappear and then you would need to craft yourself a new one. If you were to find another one then that would be rewarding since you needed one.

Except you can't craft tier 6, which leaves you stuck on tier 5 most of the game except when you find a tier 6 and then only until it needs repaired one time.

I know many people like the idea but it just isn't for me.  And, like I mentioned, if you're going to degrade items, there's no value in having random stats on items because there's no value in trying to get a better stat item if it's just going to degrade and become useless in a day or so anyhow.  Things like the auger would constantly have to be replaced for anyone who likes to mine and that would quickly become annoying for them.  Having to grind to get enough stuff to keep remaking your weapons and tools and I assume armor would fall into this for those who like the idea would get tiresome.  Again, this is just my own opinion on it and others like it.  As you said earlier, I think leaving it to mods is the better option.  If this game had far more variety in items and stats the way a typical ARPG does, then that would be different as you'd always be working to upgrade your equipment anyhow.  But when you have so few options, there just isn't any good reason for it, imo.

 

[Roland]

Except you can't craft tier 6, which leaves you stuck on tier 5 most of the game except when you find a tier 6 and then only until it needs repaired one time.

So what? What’s wrong with tier 5?  Tier 6 is supposed to be legendary so you should be playing most of the game at tier 5 with rare tier 6 gear to supplement. I can’t think of a single activity in the game that can’t be handled adequately with tier 5 gear. Tier 6 is way too common imo and degradation would help with that if they aren’t going to nerf Tier 6 availability. 
 

And, like I mentioned, if you're going to degrade items, there's no value in having random stats on items because there's no value in trying to get a better stat item if it's just going to degrade and become useless in a day or so anyhow.

How do you make that leap?  Random stats can work just fine with degradation. And who said that an item would break after a day?  That is what balancing is about but nobody who is for degradation wants to go from infinity to a day. We just don’t want infinity. 
 

There’s no need for exaggeration. There’s no danger the status quo on this issue is going to change. I’ve argued this with Madmole and he is firmly on your side.  
 

 

[Riamus]

So what? What’s wrong with tier 5?  Tier 6 is supposed to be legendary so you should be playing most of the game at tier 5 with rare tier 6 gear to supplement. I can’t think of a single activity in the game that can’t be handled adequately with tier 5 gear. Tier 6 is way too common imo and degradation would help with that if they aren’t going to nerf Tier 6 availability. 
 

How do you make that leap?  Random stats can work just fine with degradation. And who said that an item would break after a day?  That is what balancing is about but nobody who is for degradation wants to go from infinity to a day. We just don’t want infinity. 
 

There’s no need for exaggeration. There’s no danger the status quo on this issue is going to change. I’ve argued this with Madmole and he is firmly on your side.  

*IF* tier 6 were actually legendary - and that, to me, would imply something better than 1 mod slot that I rarely use except on the auger or drone and slightly better stats - then I'd agree.  But at the moment, it's just the next level of upgrade.

Random stats right now are generally a small variation in stats.  If you are losing a tier of stats after a short time, regardless if you want to say more than one day, then why bother trying to get better?  You'll just grab the higher tier and use it until it degrades and you find the higher tier again.  By the time you find something with better stats, you've already degraded the one you had previously, so it really doesn't matter.

Yes, we could adjust the time it takes for something to break.  Right now, if I do a lot of questing, I'll almost always repair my weapon within a day, give or take a little time.  Two days would be the absolute longest before repairs due to reaching 0 durability if I'm using the weapon or tool regularly.  If I'm just running around all day or doing other things, then it would be less often, obviously.  Now, do we reduce durability loss so you don't degrade so quickly?  Sure, you could.  But then you'll have everyone complaining about durability being meaningless because it lasts "forever".  You are stuck in a situation where either it's fast enough to make it pointless to go for better gear of the same tier/quality level or you reduce durability loss so that it just takes a long time before you use up durability and then you're likely finding enough replacement equipment that it wouldn't matter anyhow.  Add in the random nature of RNG and people will complain that they can never get what they "need" to replace their broken equipment.  Again, this isn't an ARPG where you are constantly upgrading.  It is a game where what you have is pretty static.  And replacing something with essentially the same thing isn't going to change that it's static.

Besides, considering they are changing loot progression and crafting progression in A21, it is likely that people will take enough time to work up to the top tier/quality items that it won't really matter anymore.

*To clarify: I realized I'm using tier instead of quality level.  Rather than change it, I'll just note that here.  I think most understand what I meant anyhow.

As you said, it's a polarizing topic.  Some like it and some don't and we're not likely to change each other's mind.  I'd be fine with it in something like an ARPG.  Just not in this particular game.  Some things that work well in one type of game won't work as well, even if some still like them, in another.

 

[Roland]

It works fine in Minecraft. I think it could work just fine in this game. I've done it voluntarily by scrapping broken gear instead of repairing and I felt that it was a little to fast but not too bad at all.  But that's neither here nor there. It isn't going to happen except through mods or personal choice.

 

[FA_Q2]

1) It would add more significance to looting and crafting. Without degradation, if you find a purple pick axe, you never have to craft or find another for the whole playthrough of that game. In fact, finding another one is depressing since you already have one and that find could've been something you don't yet have. Why ever craft a pick-axe if you already found a better one than you were able to craft? With degradation, eventually that pickaxe would be used up and disappear and then you would need to craft yourself a new one. If you were to find another one then that would be rewarding since you needed one.

I disagree that it would add anything to looting.  For me, it would remove looting altogether.  There would be zero reasons to go looting for a tool rather than simply crafting it as whatever I found would not be anymore useful than a crafted item and a crafted item is FAR faster to acquire.  By orders of magnitude.

As it stands now I loot for specific items all the time.

2) It would make mods that add durability have actual relevance. Who cares about the current diamond edge mod that adds durability to your item when it is infinitely repairable? Instead of actually adding to the longevity of the item, it simply reduces the frequency with which you need to repair it which is meaningless because repairing is such an insignificant mechanic itself.

Meh, this is certainly true but I use these mods now anyway so no real change there.  It would have more meaning if there were a lot more variety in mods.  As it stands now, most of my mods are in place simply because they raise the damage values.  There are very few mods that provide functionality that is actually meaningful past the incremental damage output.

Guns have a little more variance here but durability mods do not apply there.

3) It would increase the situations in which the player must make do without. These situations add variety to gameplay. One of the staples of survival games is that you must often try to survive without the perfect set of tools and you need to get creative in how to overcome the threats with whatever you have on hand-- or use inferior items until you can replace them with high-quality items. Without degradation those situations are often never seen in the game.

Not really.  Crafting would fill that hole almost immediately and the loot levels make that pretty much irrelevant anyway.

4) It would make first-day or first-week super lucky finds be amazing but not balance-breaking since they wouldn't last for the entire rest of the playthrough. TFP could even increase the chance of finding a rare epic item on day one since it wouldn't stick around forever.

Those are four big reasons I can think of that appeal to me and why I think degradation is needed but like I said, some people just hate losing stuff they have and those reasons above are not enough to overcome their distaste of non-permanence. But I'd be happy with permanent degradation as a mod and not part of the base game.

In addition to the above for item degradation, food spoilage would also add many new dimensions that are a lot of fun (for some) and I would love for that to have been something they wanted for this game.

I do not really care for spoilage either to be honest.  It is in Empyrion and The Forest but I pay, essentially, zero attention to spoilage in those games.  I have never played a game where spoilage was a factor that added anything.  

I think there is a key difference in how we view the progression of a game.  It seems to me that you want something more pervasive where survival means having to constantly deal with the challenges of scarcity in some form or another.  I prefer having a lot of holes early on and then progressing past each one of those barriers rather than having to return to them.

At least that is how this feels to me and I find that interesting.

 

[Roland]

I disagree that it would add anything to looting.  For me, it would remove looting altogether.  There would be zero reasons to go looting for a tool rather than simply crafting it as whatever I found would not be anymore useful than a crafted item and a crafted item is FAR faster to acquire.  By orders of magnitude.

As it stands now I loot for specific items all the time.

That might be true of A20 where you can rush xp farming and ramp up your crafting ability simply by spending points in targeted areas. In A21, you won't be able to do that and you will have no idea whether you will be able to craft something at a higher level than what you can find. Even if you do, you will still be glad to find gear in loot and save it for the future instead of get rid of it immediately.

Meh, this is certainly true but I use these mods now anyway so no real change there.  It would have more meaning if there were a lot more variety in mods.  As it stands now, most of my mods are in place simply because they raise the damage values.  There are very few mods that provide functionality that is actually meaningful past the incremental damage output.

Guns have a little more variance here but durability mods do not apply there.

That's only because durability isn't an issue. If durability was finite then for sure durability extending mods would have a greater impact in the game. Perhaps you don't care about the abilities of mods beyond their damage enhancement properties but I don't think everyone feels that way.

Not really.  Crafting would fill that hole almost immediately and the loot levels make that pretty much irrelevant anyway.

Crafting might fill that hole immediately but not necessarily and especially so in A21. You might be able to replace what you had with an equal quality replacement through crafting but depending on your progression you might only be able to craft something of lesser quality which is what "making do" refers to. Eventually you might find in loot another high quality replacement. Also, parts are always a limiting factor on what you can craft so you would be looting to find either parts or a replacement item.

I do not really care for spoilage wither to be honest.  It is in Empyrion and The Forest but I pay, essentially, zero attention to spoilage in those game.  I have never played a game where spoilage was a factor that added anything.

It's obvious you don't value the things that spoilage and degradation add to the game-- which is fine. Some people like inventory management and others hate it with a passion and say it adds nothing to the game. Some people like lots of intermediate crafting steps wanting to start with raw ores and then refined metals and then components and then final products essentially having to go through multiple stages of crafting to get the item they want while others just want to get the resources and get their item crafted in a single step. It doesn't mean that those design choices don't add anything to the game. It just means they aren't to the taste of that particular person.

I think there is a key difference in how we view the progression of a game.  It seems to me that you want something more pervasive where survival means having to constantly deal with the challenges of scarcity in some form or another.  I prefer having a lot of holes early on and then progressing past each one of those barriers rather than having to return to them.

I don't want to have to deal with the challenges of scarcity the whole game. I want to overcome them with advancement. You don't seem to want them in the game at all even though you claim to enjoy having holes early on and then progressing past each one. Spoilage is a hole to be progressed past. People who hate spoilage in their games always claim that it is going to be some pervasive tedious thing that will last all game long and yet every game that has spoilage also has means to mitigate it and overcome it to the point that it is overcome.

It is interesting that different people have different preferences. I do like challenges of scarcity in survival games. But, like you, I enjoy overcoming those challenges through progression and over time. I just wish we had a few more challenges to overcome. Their complete absence from the game doesn't really count in my book.

 

[Javabean867]

Why not just get rid of repair kits if you want item degradation?  Mod them right out.

 

[Roland]

Why not just get rid of repair kits if you want item degradation?  Mod them right out.

I've already acknowledged that item degradation will have to be modded in. I'm not arguing for its inclusion in the base game, I'm answering the question of why I would want it. I have modded repair kits out and I've also just played where I don't use them. I'm fine with that-- but when someone asks me why I like item degradation or how I think the game needs it then I answer.

 

[Javabean867]

I've already acknowledged that item degradation will have to be modded in. I'm not arguing for its inclusion in the base game, I'm answering the question of why I would want it. I have modded repair kits out and I've also just played where I don't use them. I'm fine with that-- but when someone asks me why I like item degradation or how I think the game needs it then I answer.

Omg Roland noticed me lol!

I completely get your position.   I am in no way arguing against it.  There have been some people on the forum who really, really want it as base.  So that's why I suggested getting rid of repair kits. Mainly as a challenge really.  I'm thinking I might do a run like that.  Once something is broken, I toss it out.  I'll still take the mods out for the next thing I find though.

 

[Vaeliorin]

It works fine in Minecraft. I think it could work just fine in this game. I've done it voluntarily by scrapping broken gear instead of repairing and I felt that it was a little to fast but not too bad at all.  But that's neither here nor there. It isn't going to happen except through mods or personal choice.

Am I allowed to point out that for a long time (don't know if it's true anymore) the most downloaded Minecraft mod was Tinker's Construct, which adds tools that don't permanently break and are fairly easily repairable?

Anyway, given that I usually end up repairing my tools 3-4 times a night when I'm mining (because they break), the idea of item degradation doesn't particularly appeal to me.

That said, I'd be cool with weapons degrading.  But don't take my tools.  Admittedly, I apparently play the game differently than just about everyone else (I conceptually hate the stamina changes in A21 because I normally don't spec into weapons until late game, so the stamina buffs being tied to weapons is awful for me.)

 

[Roland]

Am I allowed to point out that for a long time (don't know if it's true anymore) the most downloaded Minecraft mod was Tinker's Construct, which adds tools that don't permanently break and are fairly easily repairable?

Of course you are and it doesn't surprise me in the least. As I said, this is a polarizing topic. I have no doubt at least 50% of the Minecraft player base disliked the degrading weapons and whoever could did download a mod to change that. It doesn't change the fact that as a game feature degradation works well and adds gameplay value. What it does show is that many people don't enjoy that feature.

One of the mistakes a lot of people make is equating a feature they don't care for as an objectively bad feature. A feature can be good and well designed and also be disliked. I don't care for LBD as a feature but I acknowledge that it is a good feature that works well in a lot of games and is a valid and effective design.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Of course you are and it doesn't surprise me in the least. As I said, this is a polarizing topic. I have no doubt at least 50% of the Minecraft player base disliked the degrading weapons and whoever could did download a mod to change that. It doesn't change the fact that as a game feature degradation works well and adds gameplay value. What it does show is that many people don't enjoy that feature.

One of the mistakes a lot of people make is equating a feature they don't care for as an objectively bad feature. A feature can be good and well designed and also be disliked. I don't care for LBD as a feature but I acknowledge that it is a good feature that works well in a lot of games and is a valid and effective design.

Well, that first part might have been a bit facetious.  Probably should have added a smiley or something.

Anyway, I wasn't saying item degrading was inherently bad.  I was just pointing out that it's not necessarily a popular, well-liked feature.  It was one of the major complaints people had about Breath of the Wild as well, as I recall.

But like I said, I don't necessarily hate it.  I didn't mind the way it worked in A16.  It was a bit pointless for things you could craft (because you could easily get your items back into tip top shape.)  If it completely destroyed items, though, I would very much not like that.

 

[BFT2020]

Well, that first part might have been a bit facetious.  Probably should have added a smiley or something.

Are you looking for something to be insulted by?  That's a bit of a stretch there.

 

[Uncle Al]

 (I conceptually hate the stamina changes in A21 because I normally don't spec into weapons until late game, so the stamina buffs being tied to weapons is awful for me.)

From what I've seen, the stamina reduction for tool use will be rolled into Miner 69er, in the same way the reduction for using a particular weapon skill is included in the weapon skills. You're probably actually better off in A21 if all you were taking Sex Rex for was tool use, as you will presumably being putting points in Miner 69er anyway.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Are you looking for something to be insulted by?  That's a bit of a stretch there.

No, I was making a joke.  What with the people complaining about being insulted and what not lately.

From what I've seen, the stamina reduction for tool use will be rolled into Miner 69er, in the same way the reduction for using a particular weapon skill is included in the weapon skills. You're probably actually better off in A21 if all you were taking Sex Rex for was tool use, as you will presumably being putting points in Miner 69er anyway.

Sure, but I still have to use weapons (and I primarily use melee weapons outside of horde night.)  So I'm going to have to spec into a weapon to get the stamina reduction with it, whereas in A20, I'd get the stamina reduction for everything by speccing into Sex Rex.

It also means I'm almost certainly going to only play clubs most of the time, since I hate sledgehammers (I've always hated slow swinging weapons in basically every game) and I don't want to have to branch out into another stat for a weapon unless I want something else from that tree.

 

[Riamus]

I don't care for LBD as a feature but I acknowledge that it is a good feature that works well in a lot of games and is a valid and effective design.

Can you give me some examples where it worked well?  Any games I have seen it in, it was nothing but a grind.  As I mentioned in another thread (or maybe earlier in this one), my first LBD game was Morrowind back when it was released.  I loved the LBD design for a couple of hours and then it became nothing but a chore as I was constantly jumping wherever I went to level up that skill and the same for other skills.  It made it so I had to do a ton of stuff I didn't necessarily want to do just so I could be good at doing things.  Abstracting it into skills or perks that suggest you have spent enough time to get better without having to grind a skill just works better for me.  I love the concept of LBD but just have never seen a game that could make it actually work well without just being a chore or a grind.  If you have any examples, I would love to check them out.  I would be very interested in seeing LBD really work in a game because it is such a great idea if it doesn't end up being a grind.  And just in case it isn't clear, I am serious in this question.  No sarcasm intended.  I really would like to see a game it works well in.

I think if a game were to put limitations on LBD, it might actually work.  For example, weapon skills improve as you use your weapon, but you can't just swing your weapon non-stop to improve.  You'd have to use it in combat.  I know that IRL, it is possible to get better by practicing outside combat but allowing that in a game just means that it becomes a grind as you feel you need to spend time swinging the weapon for no reason other than improving the skill.  I understand that's realistic but it just doesn't work well for me.  Or, alternatively, if there were a limit to how much you can gain that way per level so that you can't basically out-level your character with the skills.  Some games do have that limit but I haven't seen any that I felt it worked well in, so maybe it wasn't enough.  It's hard for me to say since I haven't seen anything that really worked well for me.  Without trying a variety of different LBD setups and maybe finding one that I liked, it's just guesswork.  Something like jumping should definitely not be LBD as it's dumb to feel like you need to jump everywhere.

Are you looking for something to be insulted by?  That's a bit of a stretch there.

They were referring to their own comment, not the one they quoted.

No, I was making a joke.  What with the people complaining about being insulted and what not lately.

Sure, but I still have to use weapons (and I primarily use melee weapons outside of horde night.)  So I'm going to have to spec into a weapon to get the stamina reduction with it, whereas in A20, I'd get the stamina reduction for everything by speccing into Sex Rex.

It also means I'm almost certainly going to only play clubs most of the time, since I hate sledgehammers (I've always hated slow swinging weapons in basically every game) and I don't want to have to branch out into another stat for a weapon unless I want something else from that tree.

Well... this is partially true.  If you aren't putting points into Sex Rex, then you have those points to put somewhere else, like into a weapon without any loss.  However, if the weapon is in a stat you aren't already using, then it does require some extra points for that stat.  That said, using a weapon without points in the stat is pretty sub-optimal, so probably isn't the best idea to begin with.  Even in A20, you'd have been better off using something from the stamina branch if you aren't putting points into other branches.  You'd do more damage that way.  So yes, some more points if you aren't already putting points into the stat that has the weapon to want to use but the points from Sex Rex are available to put into a weapon so you'd get the stamina bonus for that.

 

[Vaeliorin]

Can you give me some examples where it worked well?  Any games I have seen it in, it was nothing but a grind.  As I mentioned in another thread (or maybe earlier in this one), my first LBD game was Morrowind back when it was released.  I loved the LBD design for a couple of hours and then it became nothing but a chore as I was constantly jumping wherever I went to level up that skill and the same for other skills.  It made it so I had to do a ton of stuff I didn't necessarily want to do just so I could be good at doing things.  Abstracting it into skills or perks that suggest you have spent enough time to get better without having to grind a skill just works better for me.  I love the concept of LBD but just have never seen a game that could make it actually work well without just being a chore or a grind.  If you have any examples, I would love to check them out.  I would be very interested in seeing LBD really work in a game because it is such a great idea if it doesn't end up being a grind.  And just in case it isn't clear, I am serious in this question.  No sarcasm intended.  I really would like to see a game it works well in.

Wizardry 7 & 8.  In those games you couldn't get points by doing without there being some risk of failure (like @%$#ing off the NPC you were repeatedly charming if you failed, or setting off the trap you were repeatedly almost disabling.)  And you also got a handful of points every level up to distribute how you wished.

As an aside, I'd always hated Elder Scrolls-esque LBD until I played 7D2D (I started with 16.4, so no spamming weapons to level up crafting ability.)  I never felt the need to grind, I just got better in the things I did all the time, and it was plenty to let me do whatever I wanted to do.  My weapon skills were usually terrible, but spikes and the like were more resilient back then, so you could handle horde nights with low weapon skills even if you didn't have electric traps yet.

They were referring to their own comment, not the one they quoted.

Aye

Well... this is partially true.  If you aren't putting points into Sex Rex, then you have those points to put somewhere else, like into a weapon without any loss.  However, if the weapon is in a stat you aren't already using, then it does require some extra points for that stat.  That said, using a weapon without points in the stat is pretty sub-optimal, so probably isn't the best idea to begin with.  Even in A20, you'd have been better off using something from the stamina branch if you aren't putting points into other branches.  You'd do more damage that way.  So yes, some more points if you aren't already putting points into the stat that has the weapon to want to use but the points from Sex Rex are available to put into a weapon so you'd get the stamina bonus for that.

I suppose I hadn't thought about the points I wouldn't be putting into Sex Rex.  I guess I'll just dump those in clubs.  Thanks!

As for it being sub optimal, I've never had a problem using weapons I'm not statted for.  I realize it's not the most optimal, but it's always been functional for me (Back in A16 I used to have maxed out stats in things like athletics and mining, but all my weapon skills would be below 20 ).