PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Gamida]

I completely disagree with this statement. That's like saying that an engineer building a bridge should listen to the pedestrians, so that his "mistakes" can be fixed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citicorp_Center_engineering_crisis

Can I ask something that may be obvious to others? What is the meaning of the Have a cookie emote? I mean in my very young days growing up giving someone a cookie was either a "My, you were a good boy. Have a cookie" or could be "Aw, you got a boo boo. Here have a cookie" Both probably contributed to me being "big boned" (Thank Mom).

So how do I figure it out for future reference?

 

[Matt115]

Soo...this means we're going to see Nazi zombies? ...like in Død snø 2 !??...the coolest zombie movie ever?

-Arch Necromancer Morloc

To be honest - 7dtd in ww2 setting would be great

Frankenstein new army is better in my opinion

 

[Guppycur]

To be honest - 7dtd in ww2 setting would be great

We already have medieval, asian and fallout, as well as demonic, and a few undescribables.  I'm fine w/o ww2.

 

[Matt115]

We already have medieval, asian and fallout, as well as demonic, and a few undescribables.  I'm fine w/o ww2.

What? we have only demonic (darkness falls mod). Asia you mean setting or type of game?

 

[meganoth]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citicorp_Center_engineering_crisis

An architecture student is NOT a pedestrian, but an independant expert.

 

[Jost Amman]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citicorp_Center_engineering_crisis

Interesting... but has nothing to do with my example, though. 

In this case the "pedestrian" pointing out the flaws, was not a common person, but a student who dedicated his thesis on the specific building, not a random person living in the building or working inside it.

Also, we're not talking about people suggesting frivolous changes to the building which could impact its stability (like some players do with 7D2D when they ask features that could make the game crawl down to 1 FPS), but that guy is someone pointing out structural flaws that could compromise the building itself. It's like if some player found out a section of code that when activated could format your hard drive. Instead, those arguing the game will be doomed if TFP don't change/revert feature X, are like people saying that if the engineer doesn't put an elevator in the building, it will collapse!  :lol:

 

[Jost Amman]

What? we have only demonic (darkness falls mod). Asia you mean setting or type of game?

There's an Asian mod, I could only see a gameplay video a long time ago... but I can't find it on the internet...  :confused2:

 

[RipClaw]

In this case the "pedestrian" pointing out the flaws, was not a common person, but a student who dedicated his thesis on the specific building, not a random person living in the building or working inside it.

And what do you say about the pedestrians on the Millennium Bridge in London ? The bridge had to be closed for two years to fix it because it started to oscillate every time pedestrians crossed it. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Bridge,_London

 

[Jost Amman]

And what do you say about the pedestrians on the Millennium Bridge in London ? The bridge had to be closed for two years to fix it because it started to oscillate every time pedestrians crossed it. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Bridge,_London

I say you're all nitpicking here and just want to win an argument.

In the case of 7D2D the bridge isn't completed yet.  :heh:   :hand:

 

[Naz]

To be honest - 7dtd in ww2 setting would be great

Frankenstein new army is better in my opinion

I made a ww2 bunker themed base in a18, even had a hangar i could fly into with the gyro. There must be some ww2 prefabs out there.

Spoiler

 

[Roland]

And what do you say about the pedestrians on the Millennium Bridge in London ? The bridge had to be closed for two years to fix it because it started to oscillate every time pedestrians crossed it. 

I’d say that this is all we are asking pedestrians to do. Actually cross the bridge and report on oscillations. The good news about our venture is that no real lives are in danger by doing so. 

 

[Shemasheko]

What? we have only demonic (darkness falls mod). Asia you mean setting or type of game?

 

[Jost Amman]

I’d say that this is all we are asking pedestrians to do. Actually cross the bridge and report on oscillations. The good news about our venture is that no real lives are in danger by doing so. 

Excluding faatal's if he doesn't get it right with bandits, of course...  :heh:

Spoiler

 

[lord_ahriman]

What glue problem?  The only glue problem that exists is in your fears. Until you play A21 you can’t know whether there is even a glue problem at all. The loot tables are different, the trader prices and product balance is different and even the glue crafting recipe is different. Everything you are worried about as a potential problem are things that should be worked out or changed after we get feedback from players who have played.  Even hardcore builders should actually play A21 first before concluding they are completely screwed. 

There are magazines available to buy at the trader and you get nine magazines as an optional quest reward per quest not to mention all the magazines you’ll find while questing. Bookstores are the mother lode. Honestly, filling vending machines with even more magazines would be overkill. 
 

The food and drink prices were adjusted to better balance the survival game as they were too easily purchased allowing the player to ignore completely murky water. They raised the prices on purpose. Why would they then erase that change by increasing quest reward money?  Again, this is something that should actually be played first and then give your feedback on whether you think prices are too high and keeping yourself fed and hydrated too difficult. 
 

Well, we wouldn’t want to be odd alpha pattern breakers…lol

It’s impossible for us to convey in words all the changes that make A21 work. I’ve noticed that people keep slipping into thinking that player progression is tied to the magazines and that builders will be stopped in their progression. I can understand this because even when playing it the first few times I would forget that I could still spend skill points to progress my skills independently of what magazines I had found or what I could craft. The change code wise was simple and design wise just a step apart from what we have in A20 but gameplay-wise it’s a whole new meta that you absolutely have to play to fully understand the new puzzle of early to mid game survival. 
 

Isn't this a bit premature to complain about filter availability when nothing is known about that in mid- and late game?

Size of the collectors is well-known though. But have you ever made a tree farm? As a builder and miner surely. What about a garden in A16 before you could place farms easily on the top of your base? Did the size of your tree farm ever disturb you? Did you ever complain farms use up too much space to be put on top of your crafting base?

Think of a dew collector not as a workstation but as a "water" tree like many mods have apple trees to farm resources off and suddenly placing them somewhere in a garden apart from your base is a natural thing.

Again, we don't have first-hand knowledge about the drop rate of specific magazines and how to influence that to really know whether a builder will get into trouble. Sure, it is much more likely that it is detrimental to a pure builder game, but only actual experience playing A21 will show possible solutions. Remember that vending machines can be used by normal scavenger players as well, so if they simply increase the sources for magazines then normal players will craft end-game stuff in early game.

Same as above. A21 needed much rebalancing work after the crafting changes (according to the developers). You don't even know whether a lvl1 quest gives 330 dukes and what you can buy with it. 10% more money for a quest may be unneccessary, just right or totally insufficient. We won't know before playing it.

And I'm sure there will be stuff that is not balanced well. There are always details that fall through the net of the testers, that is what experimental and EA is for. But you won't know which details are the problem and which are not, until you play it.

I'm not overreacting nor complaining just judging by the very little we have been told as I said before writing my post:

"...Most of us don't have a clue about how to play A21, but from what we have been told..."

So, I think it's very clear I wasn't pointing fingers, just an opinion based on what we already know and it could obviously change.

 

[RipClaw]

Isn't this a bit premature to complain about filter availability when nothing is known about that in mid- and late game?

Some things we already know.

I think it was unholyjoe who posted a fragment from the loot.xml. There the probability for the filter was given as "veryLow".  The crucible schematic has this probability in A20, for example.

Roland wrote that he saw the filter after each restock day at trader Rekt. The other traders don't have it always in stock. The cost is currently 1500 coins.

If you play with the trader, you should be able to get the filter very quickly. If you play without a trader then it will be much more difficult to get a filter.

Size of the collectors is well-known though. But have you ever made a tree farm? As a builder and miner surely.

Yes I have in A15 and A16. I used the space between the trees for my garden. For the dew collectors, I could build a multi-level garden with the dew collectors on the roof. However, there must be some space between the dew collectors so that light shines through to the next level. The dew collectors can not be stacked as far as I know, because the sky must be free of obstructions. I think it was unholyjoe who wrote that.

What about a garden in A16 before you could place farms easily on the top of your base?

Actually, even then you could create a roof garden. You just had to craft soil and place it on the roof. Many did this, for example, in the Dishong challenge to grow trees for wood and food.

 

[Matt115]

There's an Asian mod, I could only see a gameplay video a long time ago... but I can't find it on the internet...  :confused2:

3 hours ago, Shemasheko said:

To be honest - This is...............

.....

....

..

.

Accetable. Looks good. strange but consistent aestetic. I saw few medieval mods but looks just... uhh..

 

[Gamida]

Interesting... but has nothing to do with my example, though. 

In this case the "pedestrian" pointing out the flaws, was not a common person, but a student who dedicated his thesis on the specific building, not a random person living in the building or working inside it.

Also, we're not talking about people suggesting frivolous changes to the building which could impact its stability (like some players do with 7D2D when they ask features that could make the game crawl down to 1 FPS), but that guy is someone pointing out structural flaws that could compromise the building itself. It's like if some player found out a section of code that when activated could format your hard drive. Instead, those arguing the game will be doomed if TFP don't change/revert feature X, are like people saying that if the engineer doesn't put an elevator in the building, it will collapse!  :lol:

An architecture student is NOT a pedestrian, but an independant expert.

It was a student. I wouldn't call them a expert. The engineer was a professional. Professional enough that they had actual stuff built.

I say you're all nitpicking here and just want to win an argument.

In the case of 7D2D the bridge isn't completed yet.  :heh:   :hand:

That is a weird way to get a point across isn't it. Just saying we are nitpicking to win an argument. I am not trying to win any argument. I am just adding my opinion same as everyone else.

I am also aware that 7D's isn't finished yet. Also, and this again is just my opinioin. When the argument is that a21 isn't out yet so wait until it is and you try it before you judge it I feel a lot of people (again just my opinion) feel that if they wait until everything is finished and they don't say something then when it does come out and they mention something they think could be changed the answer will just be "Well it's already in the game now we are not going to change it because some people don't feel it fits."

 

[beerfly]

When are we getting A21 experimental?

*summoning a screamer horde on you* 

 

[Roland]

that was a good watch thanks for the post!   hay with the new crafting system is there any chance we might get to craft tier 6 stone or iron tools?  

Until legendary gear becomes a thing I don't think there is a chance. If legendary gear makes it into the game (something Joel really wants btw) then there is a chance that T6 could be returned to the crafting progression and the legendary tier becomes the one that is non-craftable.

 

[Roland]

I am also aware that 7D's isn't finished yet. Also, and this again is just my opinioin. When the argument is that a21 isn't out yet so wait until it is and you try it before you judge it I feel a lot of people (again just my opinion) feel that if they wait until everything is finished and they don't say something then when it does come out and they mention something they think could be changed the answer will just be "Well it's already in the game now we are not going to change it because some people don't feel it fits."

I've seen this argument made again and again but the reality is that the developers are never going to listen to feedback based upon a partial description of what a new feature in A21 is going to be. It is possible that they will later say "Too late, it's already in and we're not going to change it" but it is also possible that they will take negative feedback and use that to rebalance the feature to make it more fun for everyone. What is definitely not possible is them taking the suggestions of people to adjust or revert it now who've never played with it. They just don't see all these hypothetical fixes to hypothetical problems as being worthy of their time. They want actual data.

So while it may be true that they might reject any feedback after the fact because its already done and in, that is really the only window of opportunity that exists. Until that time they debate and consider issues internally on the team. I can say that every concern that people bring up are concerns that have been considered and discussed by the team. So far, nobody has brought up anything that the team never considered. That doesn't mean, though, that the level of importance that they place (on the dew collector footprint for example) will always match the the level of importance that some of the players place on such things and so there will sure to be opportunities for feedback and revisiting certain things. 

In the end, the final decision rests with the developers. They re-iterated that design philosophy tonight in their interview-- that they appreciate player feedback on balance and fun-factor on implemented features players have actually experienced whereas they retain design decisions for what goes into the game, what gets cut from the game, and what gets changed in the game for themselves. So, if you really think about it, they aren't even asking for our input on things that haven't been released yet which means the community has zero chance of speaking up now to get things cancelled or reverted before its too late. It's already too late once the development team decides a change is going to happen. There won't ever be a community poll for whether something new is going to be added, cut, or changed before the fact. That same philosophy will surely continue into their next projects as well.