PC This is the kind of point of view that makes me go facepalm about some reviewers.

[v3tro]

Your truth. Honestly, it really doesn't matter what anyone says out here it'll be met with the same defensive responses all TFP reps give. X person is wrong and we are right. TFP are always right. We never falter or make mistakes. TFP are perfect. We have nothing to learn because we know it all. Our truth is above the highest enlightenment.

Reach Gaming's points are right and the patterns are real. You don't want to see the validity in his views and want or expect all us out here to believe a context and narrative you want people to believe. Of course Schwanz9000 replied to Reach Gaming. Can't have that kind of negative truth without some sort of defence. I also see people asked questions and were ignored. Is this strange this happens? No. It's a pattern.

This right here just shows how blindly you are following it without giving any real evidence. You worship Reach Gaming`s views and everyone else is wrong..

You are doing and acting the exact same way you talk about TFP or anyone else defending them. You have the absolute same mindset only without any factual proof or logic behind it, just emotionally distressed feelings. It`s quite sad actually. Everyone is wrong and you are the only righteous one, +10 more fellas who share the same mindset out of 100,000 people.

There is HUGE difference between being blunt and straightforward to being rude, insulting and mocking everything. You are like a real life Karen who is not happy about anything, have 0 factual knowledge and is unwilling to listen or learn anything because that would mean you were wrong in the first place.

In your long post there was also a pattern and it was simple. - You are delusional.

No one, not even TFP themselves have said that they are perfect and everything is amazing.

Everyone, mods and TFP staff included, have had something they are not happy about the game or would change/mod themselves, but they voice their opinion in a civilized manner. What you are doing is straight out trolling and letting your frustration out on others.

Also, can you name some of the "playstyles removed" by TFP? What did they remove and didn`t let you play? Could one of those things be "digging zombies" ? Just in case, this stupid ass argument was one of them - zombies always dug, then they stopped for few alphas and now they dig again. So no playstyle was removed here. 

 

[Matt115]

You say this new water system adds nothing, but how many hours of A21 did you play? None. QA testers and devs, instead, are currently playing and experimenting A21 gameplay and can see what's working and what's not. They're doing their best (hopefully) to make it interesting and fun.

Well Jost - you don't have to play to know if something will be good or not. Just even simple things like short describtion can give you a lot of information.

Warhammer 3 imortal empires is good example for that :

People know which factions will be hard/unplayable by just knowing their locations - don't even knowing stats. Why?  If there is vampire counts faction in places where there is a lot "anti-vampires" factions in small area you can expect that AI will rush this faction to get this province.

You can do this with a lot of games - like cod : just leaks and names of perks let cod MP guys to know if MP will be good or bad.

Btw this is not about water system in 7DTD - how this will be working depends on crafting recept and loot pools.  I mean here how you can deduct information just using minimal information about something in game if you spend a lot of time playing in this game / series of games.

I respect so much guys who can good predictic which weapons will be OP in new cod just by seeing describtion and name of weapon. They are usually right about guns

"find more ... parts of that specialization". Can you cite a source for this? I don't remember this having been explicitely said, but I do have a bad memory.

I fully expect this to eventually happen or the number of parts needed for crafting getting reduced (which would have somewhat the same effect) as part of balancing. But was that information already leaked for A21?

Unfortunatly nothing about that. Parts making crafting so... weak vs. looting + candy + gogles --> you see good stuff? use candy get better staf that you could made because lack of parts

 

[RipClaw]

"find more ... parts of that specialization". Can you cite a source for this? I don't remember this having been explicitely said, but I do have a bad memory.

I fully expect this to eventually happen or the number of parts needed for crafting getting reduced (which would have somewhat the same effect) as part of balancing. But was that information already leaked for A21?

It is mentioned on the first page of the A21 Dev Diary

• Perks now govern the probability of finding like-themed magazines and parts for those recipes. Perk into shotguns and you will notice more shotgun magazines and shotgun parts appearing in the world
  
• When you max out a skill, the probability bonus granted by perks for finding the corresponding magazine for that skill drops off. The magazine will still show up randomly in loot but no longer have a boost. The probability boost for finding matching parts will remain.
  

 

[Matt115]

It is mentioned on the first page of the A21 Dev Diary

• Perks now govern the probability of finding like-themed magazines and parts for those recipes. Perk into shotguns and you will notice more shotgun magazines and shotgun parts appearing in the world
  
• When you max out a skill, the probability bonus granted by perks for finding the corresponding magazine for that skill drops off. The magazine will still show up randomly in loot but no longer have a boost. The probability boost for finding matching parts will remain.
  

Good to know but on other hand - we don't know how many parts will need for crafing + this don't mean crafitng will be buffed why? 

For example :

A20 - 0,5 % for steel parts chance

A21 - 0,125% on T1 , 0,2 on T2 etc so- this will be "true" but this make crafting useless

 

[v3tro]

Good to know but on other hand - we don't know how many parts will need for crafing + this don't mean crafitng will be buffed why? 

For example :

A20 - 0,5 % for steel parts chance

A21 - 0,125% on T1 , 0,2 on T2 etc so- this will be "true" but this make crafting useless

But this is a balance issue, % and numbers can be tweaked easily. 

 

[meganoth]

Well Jost - you don't have to play to know if something will be good or not. Just even simple things like short describtion can give you a lot of information.

Warhammer 3 imortal empires is good example for that :

People know which factions will be hard/unplayable by just knowing their locations - don't even knowing stats. Why?  If there is vampire counts faction in places where there is a lot "anti-vampires" factions in small area you can expect that AI will rush this faction to get this province.

You can do this with a lot of games - like cod : just leaks and names of perks let cod MP guys to know if MP will be good or bad.

There is a world of intermediate steps between not knowing and knowing called suspecting, assuming, suspecting, conjecturing, presuming, hypothesizing. You are using the word "knowing" wrong because knowing is the end point of having a fact.

Btw this is not about water system in 7DTD - how this will be working depends on crafting recept and loot pools.  I mean here how you can deduct information just using minimal information about something in game if you spend a lot of time playing in this game / series of games.

I respect so much guys who can good predictic which weapons will be OP in new cod just by seeing describtion and name of weapon. They are usually right about guns

Unfortunatly nothing about that. Parts making crafting so... weak vs. looting + candy + gogles --> you see good stuff? use candy get better staf that you could made because lack of parts

And you prove it yourself: "They are usually right about...". This clearly shows they do not know, they are good at conjecturing, assessing, guessing.

TFP internal testers at the moment have a lead in what they know, they still need conjecture when they say crafting will work better for most players or not. But their data basis for predicting is a lot more accurate than that of a random youtuber or you.

 

[meganoth]

Good to know but on other hand - we don't know how many parts will need for crafing + this don't mean crafitng will be buffed why? 

For example :

A20 - 0,5 % for steel parts chance

A21 - 0,125% on T1 , 0,2 on T2 etc so- this will be "true" but this make crafting useless

"you will notice more ... shotgun parts appearing in the world".

This is quite a clear statement of parts appearing more often, while nothing has been said about crafting being made harder. Naturally we have to guess about the end-result, but how idiotic would it be to make parts drop more often but then invalidate this change by making crafting more difficult again?

And your number example is directly contradicting the words in the announcement.

 

[Jost Amman]

People know which factions will be hard/unplayable by just knowing their locations - don't even knowing stats. Why?  If there is vampire counts faction in places where there is a lot "anti-vampires" factions in small area you can expect that AI will rush this faction to get this province.

You can do this with a lot of games - like cod : just leaks and names of perks let cod MP guys to know if MP will be good or bad.

To follow up on your example (even if I don't really know the game/context)... in the case of the water changes in A21, you don't even know if there are any anti-vampires factions AT ALL. Those who are testing A21 (QA and some devs) do.

 

[Matt115]

But this is a balance issue, % and numbers can be tweaked easily. 

Well that's true

There is a world of intermediate steps between not knowing and knowing called suspecting, assuming, suspecting, conjecturing, presuming, hypothesizing. You are using the word "knowing" wrong because knowing is the end point of having a fact.

And you prove it yourself: "They are usually right about...". This clearly shows they do not know, they are good at conjecturing, assessing, guessing.

TFP internal testers at the moment have a lead in what they know, they still need conjecture when they say crafting will work better for most players or not. But their data basis for predicting is a lot more accurate than that of a random youtuber or you.

1. Well yes they are good at conjecturing - so can be 90% that they will be right about something. In COD case --> you have 4 stages - leaks , "first opinions" ,  open beta and full releaesed now. Leaks are usually correct - about guns perks - things about campain or zombie mod is diffrent because a lot of things are scrapped or removed because "Activision reasons" ( they do something terrible again and everybody know that X was mistake so they had to do anything to save a game or a lot of important devs decided to abadon ship). But MP is pretty stable. Then you have first opinions of  closed beta players like "this game is wow" "revolutionary " etc. but rest not invited important cod community member saying that invented people are not objective ( well some things are objective like visible overpower of some guns or eq, bad map design etc). Then show up open beta and tons of visible problems , then full released and usually change absolutly nothing since beta.  So in cod situation you can say they know because well - some things are constants - some perks are broken always, most maps will be terrible because they just "remaked" older bad maps etc.

In Warhammer situation can" know"  which factions will be good or not just looking on "short" describtion and your experience in warhammer - demons of nurgle is slow faction. And a lot of people were saying that faction will be terrible because 1. most "basic" ( non dlc except Ogres") factions have hard hiting fast artilery units + warhammer total war take some things from battletop warhammer fantasy so you can expect some units for some factions. 2. Just first look on buildings and army recruting show that nurgle faction will be "AFK" for long time and that's problem because you can get world event. From experience from older games from this series you can expect that AI will do nothing good so you will have to deal with yourself. And after released... they were right about that.

If internal tester are more accurate? Yes and no. Let take a breaker as example - idk if they were lucky but beaker were a big problem in one Alpha and i saw that a lot of people had this problem. So : 1. they were lucky enough to find them pretty fast 2. this wasn't so important for them.  Because increase chance to get beaker wasn't big deal- maybe this is just 1 hour of work.

So for internal testers - idk how many are they but for 10 people will be good but when group will be bigger problems will be more visible.

"you will notice more ... shotgun parts appearing in the world".

This is quite a clear statement of parts appearing more often, while nothing has been said about crafting being made harder. Naturally we have to guess about the end-result, but how idiotic would it be to make parts drop more often but then invalidate this change by making crafting more difficult again?

And your number example is directly contradicting the words in the announcement.

Not rly. this sounds like parts will be appearing more often after reading magasine that before reading magasines not more that in previous alpha.  So yes this can be true but in this same time can give this result. 

Example : A 20 - shotgun part have 0,1% chance to show up

A21 : 1 T- 0,01% - 5T - 1% ---> so there is visible bigger chance in this same alpha but not so big if you  compare with older alpha right?

 

[Matt115]

To follow up on your example (even if I don't really know the game/context)... in the case of the water changes in A21, you don't even know if there are any anti-vampires factions AT ALL. Those who are testing A21 (QA and some devs) do.

You mean water as "drinking" or water as " liquid on map"?

In first scenario : well - i don't remeber if they show recipte . But probably this will be pretty "basic" materials like plastic, glass , mechanical parts ---> grease monkey is usefull for making bike and cars too --> if i'm right a lot of people doing quests  so : go to trader do quest get coins buy drinks + usually Quests pois have "food stock"  or in treasure hunt you can get a lot of water etc. Quest restart POI's ---> you can very fast gain 3-4 dew collectors so maybe you will just "lose" max  1 day if you set day per 180 minutes. 

So yes there is  "anti-vampires factions" about water called : traders vending maschines and restart of POI's. Yes thing like diffrent reward or quest limits can be expected too but this don't change anything in longer period of time. For newer player who just bough 7dtd will change totaly nothing because they will don't know how this game was working in A20 but for veterans this will be nothing because they will know just looking on M and compass which PoI will be restarted or what can they expect in treasue crate

 

[meganoth]

Well that's true

1. Well yes they are good at conjecturing - so can be 90% that they will be right about something. In COD case --> you have 4 stages - leaks , "first opinions" ,  open beta and full releaesed now. Leaks are usually correct - about guns perks - things about campain or zombie mod is diffrent because a lot of things are scrapped or removed because "Activision reasons" ( they do something terrible again and everybody know that X was mistake so they had to do anything to save a game or a lot of important devs decided to abadon ship). But MP is pretty stable. Then you have first opinions of  closed beta players like "this game is wow" "revolutionary " etc. but rest not invited important cod community member saying that invented people are not objective ( well some things are objective like visible overpower of some guns or eq, bad map design etc). Then show up open beta and tons of visible problems , then full released and usually change absolutly nothing since beta.  So in cod situation you can say they know because well - some things are constants - some perks are broken always, most maps will be terrible because they just "remaked" older bad maps etc.

In Warhammer situation can" know"  which factions will be good or not just looking on "short" describtion and your experience in warhammer -

And again, this is not knowing, "knowing" or ""knowing"" and not even """knowing""". This is conjecture like you said in the first sentence. 

demons of nurgle is slow faction. And a lot of people were saying that faction will be terrible because 1. most "basic" ( non dlc except Ogres") factions have hard hiting fast artilery units + warhammer total war take some things from battletop warhammer fantasy so you can expect some units for some factions. 2. Just first look on buildings and army recruting show that nurgle faction will be "AFK" for long time and that's problem because you can get world event. From experience from older games from this series you can expect that AI will do nothing good so you will have to deal with yourself. And after released... they were right about that.

If internal tester are more accurate? Yes and no. Let take a breaker as example - idk if they were lucky but beaker were a big problem in one Alpha and i saw that a lot of people had this problem. So : 1. they were lucky enough to find them pretty fast 2. this wasn't so important for them.  Because increase chance to get beaker wasn't big deal- maybe this is just 1 hour of work.

Did you ever hear an internal tester say anything about availability of beakers? And was it wrong what he said?

Finding beakers was not a problem for a big majority of players in all alphas, but there always were the few unlucky guys who never found one. Which is exactly what probability calculus predicts. There is a good chance that TFP decided that the game working well for the big majority of players justified that always a few got the short straw. And did not change the drop chances. 

So for internal testers - idk how many are they but for 10 people will be good but when group will be bigger problems will be more visible.

TFP always said they put out alphas and experimentals to get feedback from a wider selection of audience than their internal testers.

It doesn't mean that their internal testers can't notice bigger changes. If for example they would say that they now craft twice as much as they did in A20, we can conjecture that a large portion of players will probably notice more opportunity for crafting, even if some playstyle will notice much less and maybe some other playstyles much more opportunities for crafting.

Not rly. this sounds like parts will be appearing more often after reading magasine that before reading magasines not more that in previous alpha.  So yes this can be true but in this same time can give this result. 

"Perks now govern the probability of finding like-themed magazines and parts for those recipes"

I don't know what you have been reading but clearly you have not been reading or really understanding this sentence. **Perks govern the probability of something and parts".

There is no way to interpret that sentence so that the number of magasines you read governs your finding of parts.

Example : A 20 - shotgun part have 0,1% chance to show up

A21 : 1 T- 0,01% - 5T - 1% ---> so there is visible bigger chance in this same alpha but not so big if you  compare with older alpha right?

Sure, but why would they then say "Perk into shotguns and you will notice more shotgun magazines and shotgun parts appearing in the world" when that sentence is directly contradicted by the numbers? Either that sentence they posted is generally true, then the numbers internally have to support that (and yours don't expect in very contrived circumstances) or that sentence is not true for the average case.

 

[Oliwhere]

"you will notice more ... shotgun parts appearing in the world".

This is quite a clear statement of parts appearing more often, while nothing has been said about crafting being made harder. Naturally we have to guess about the end-result, but how idiotic would it be to make parts drop more often but then invalidate this change by making crafting more difficult again?

That's why I'm scratching my head about the water change: If water is made into a much more scarce resource this also means that player-crafted glue and duct tape will be a very limited resource. So if they wanted me to be able to craft my Q1-Q5 wooden bow myself I would have to have 25 jars of water to spare to make the glue and duct tape in that recipe.

So either water surival will not be such a big issue (since you have water to spare for crafting) or crafting will have to take a backseat again, since the immediate surival needs are the more pressing matter.

So increased drop rates for glue and duct tape or lowered amounts of these items in the crafting recipes could still be needed to make the magazine/crafting and water change work out.

 

[RipClaw]

So increased drop rates for glue and duct tape or lowered amounts of these items in the crafting recipes could still be needed to make the magazine/crafting and water change work out.

Don't nail me down on this but I think I read that the drop rate of glue and tape will be increased. The only problem I have with the dew collectors is that they occupy an area of 3x3. If I put about 10 dew collectors in the front yard to craft about 100-150 glues a week, that occupies quite a bit of space.
 

I also hope they increase the stack size to 125 for clean water. Otherwise, I need a chest just for clean water.

 

[meganoth]

That's why I'm scratching my head about the water change: If water is made into a much more scarce resource this also means that player-crafted glue and duct tape will be a very limited resource. So if they wanted me to be able to craft my Q1-Q5 wooden bow myself I would have to have 25 jars of water to spare to make the glue and duct tape in that recipe.

So either water surival will not be such a big issue (since you have water to spare for crafting) or crafting will have to take a backseat again, since the immediate surival needs are the more pressing matter.

So increased drop rates for glue and duct tape or lowered amounts of these items in the crafting recipes could still be needed to make the magazine/crafting and water change work out.

Quite right. For a true assessement of the changes we from the outside need also to know the motivation for any changes TFP does.

For example I think I know the motivation for the crafting changes from hearing the developers or Roland speak about the reasons and from my own evaluation and experiences with current crafting.

One of the mentioned reasons is that you have more opportunity to craft intermediate qualities of your weapons and armor. In view of this it makes no sense for TFP to make other changes or avoid changes that would prevent crafting to occur more often.

I also know the motivation for the water changes: They want water to be more survivaly. But I have not heard from them that they think there is too much glue in the world. It follows that they probably want to make your live harder concerning drinking, but not concerning producing glue or anything else that depends or is influenced by water.

It is quite possible, even likely, that somewhere they forgot to adjust some detail or that their adjustment is not enough and it will need further balance changes. But it is unlikely that they completely overlooked the impact the water change has on glue or that they did nothing about it.

 

[RipClaw]

TFP internal testers at the moment have a lead in what they know, they still need conjecture when they say crafting will work better for most players or not. But their data basis for predicting is a lot more accurate than that of a random youtuber or you.

I always wonder if these internal testers are playing with their own play style or if they are simulating some sort of average player.
After all, when you look at the progress it makes a difference if you loot 7 days a week or maybe only 4 days a week.

 

[Matt115]

And again, this is not knowing, "knowing" or ""knowing"" and not even """knowing""". This is conjecture like you said in the first sentence. 

Did you ever hear an internal tester say anything about availability of beakers? And was it wrong what he said?

Finding beakers was not a problem for a big majority of players in all alphas, but there always were the few unlucky guys who never found one. Which is exactly what probability calculus predicts. There is a good chance that TFP decided that the game working well for the big majority of players justified that always a few got the short straw. And did not change the drop chances. 

TFP always said they put out alphas and experimentals to get feedback from a wider selection of audience than their internal testers.

It doesn't mean that their internal testers can't notice bigger changes. If for example they would say that they now craft twice as much as they did in A20, we can conjecture that a large portion of players will probably notice more opportunity for crafting, even if some playstyle will notice much less and maybe some other playstyles much more opportunities for crafting.

Well change because well it was increased in another alpha. But 1 alpha was unfun because that.

There is no way to interpret that sentence so that the number of magasines you read governs your finding of parts.

Sure, but why would they then say "Perk into shotguns and you will notice more shotgun magazines and shotgun parts appearing in the world" when that sentence is directly contradicted by the numbers? Either that sentence they posted is generally true, then the numbers internally have to support that (and yours don't expect in very contrived circumstances) or that sentence is not true for the average case.

About this number - i give example how this words can be true and in this same change nothing.

I think they will do something like time just because = let say you could find 2 parts per 2 hours in A20 so i don't think they will do something to reduce time to 2 parts per 1 hour. Well they added steel tools parts just to increase time neccesary to make this tools. So i don't believe that now they want reduce time neccesary to find stuff because they could just removed steel tool parts. 

 

[meganoth]

Well change because well it was increased in another alpha. But 1 alpha was unfun because that.

About this number - i give example how this words can be true and in this same change nothing.

No. Because they didn't say anything about any probabilities increasing, they did not talk about details, they informed us about the RESULT of their changes: More parts dropping for people. There is no way those words can be made true with your specific numbers.

I think they will do something like time just because = let say you could find 2 parts per 2 hours in A20 so i don't think they will do something to reduce time to 2 parts per 1 hour. Well they added steel tools parts just to increase time neccesary to make this tools. So i don't believe that now they want reduce time neccesary to find stuff because they could just removed steel tool parts. 

It is quite simple: Before magazines the parts and the random drop of the schematic was the way to gate crafting a high-tier weapon. And that didn't work well.

Now magazines achieve gating in a much smoother way because magazines drop more often which makes outliers (too early or too late abilitiy to craft a weapon) much less likely.

But the important thing in this: The task of gating has been taken over by magazines, which previously was the combined task of schematic and parts. Consequently parts could be removed, or they could just be rebalanced to drop more often.

It depends on whether TFP still wants some limit on crafting guns or not. For example to avoid guns being an easy way to generate money. Or avoid guns being produced in masses just to get the best random values for the guns.

 

[meganoth]

I always wonder if these internal testers are playing with their own play style or if they are simulating some sort of average player.
After all, when you look at the progress it makes a difference if you loot 7 days a week or maybe only 4 days a week.

I would guess they mostly do unit tests, i.e. test a specific feature in artificial test setups without any continuous play. Apart from that I heard hints about them being able to play the game normally too, but whether that is an official task in itself or just happens when it suits whatever they have to test is unclear.

 

[Matt115]

It is quite simple: Before magazines the parts and the random drop of the schematic was the way to gate crafting a high-tier weapon. And that didn't work well.

Now magazines achieve gating in a much smoother way because magazines drop more often which makes outliers (too early or too late abilitiy to craft a weapon) much less likely.

But the important thing in this: The task of gating has been taken over by magazines, which previously was the combined task of schematic and parts. Consequently parts could be removed, or they could just be rebalanced to drop more often.

It depends on whether TFP still wants some limit on crafting guns or not. For example to avoid guns being an easy way to generate money. Or avoid guns being produced in masses just to get the best random values for the guns.

Usually i manage to buy/loot weapon/tool before i manage to get enough parts. So high tier schematic wasnt's problems because... without parts it was totaly useless. And usually - i lack 1 part but before i manage to find this part i manage to find or buy complete gun/tool

 

[Ray Garraty]