PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[RipClaw]

Madmole's original post wasn't entirely specific on this point, but he does mention that "books that used to unlock recipes will be reworked to do something else." No where does he state that the magazines are replacing them.

There are some books that unlock recipes such as the recipe for the M60, the steel club, military stealth boots  and couple of mods like the drum magazine. The books that unlock the M60 and steel club will probably be replaced with new books. The steel club and the M60 are T3 weapons which means they will be unlocked by magazines.

 

[JCrook1028]

You can no longer skip tiers by a lucky find.

Yes you can. You can still loot or buy the actual tool or weapon... You just can't skip past it in crafting. How many of us actually craft tools or weapons anyway? I know I rarely do anyway. I find them in loot usually long before I have enough parts to craft them.

You only have to replace 'Broken car replacement, new door creation, and fluff' with whatever Zombie creation devs are doing and my point remains and is perfectly salient.

No, it's actually not. You're still ignoring the basics. Artists work on art. Coders code. Artists doing their thing does not stop the Coders from doing theirs.

 

[Roland]

so... messages moved again?

Yep. Long conversations that are not directly involving a developer get moved out. It has been this way for the last couple of years. The dev diary is for asking questions and engaging in discussion with the developers and not for debating whether the new changes are good or bad for the game with other random fans. If you have specific questions about the new changes, that post will remain. If a developer responds then that post will remain. If five random people speculate on the answers to your questions and then you respond to their speculations  and so on--- all of that will get moved except for your initial questions. 

That way people who are asking questions are more likely to have their questions be seen by a developer rather than have their question get lost in a long debate. Also, there is nothing stopping developers and our QA guys from reading this overflow thread and they often do. There are plenty of both positive and negative feedback posts still remaining on the dev diary. But when someone counters one of those posts and then a conversation develops out of that, those things get moved within a day or two.

If you feel strongly about something that needs some discussion then start a thread in General Discussions.

 

[Roland]

I've noticed I've become bored a lot sooner on these updates.

That's because you already had many hours played before the update. We have reports of players already into the 1000s of hours and they started with A20. 

So even soulless A20 seems to still have the power to provide the type of fun you remember from when you began for many new players today.

The point of the updates is not to add enough new content to keep veteran players enamored but to get the base game fleshed out and ready for release. 

 

[Syphon583]

How many of us actually craft tools or weapons anyway? I know I rarely do anyway. I find them in loot usually long before I have enough parts to craft them.

This really depends on a number of different factors, including playstyle and RNG. I'm all for finding better gear in loot, but in my current no trader/vending playthrough, I've had to craft quite a bit myself because I've come across more recipes (or perked into them) and parts before being able to find better gear. If I'm playing with a trader, that's usually the opposite, as they typically reward with better gear before I can craft it.

 

[RipClaw]

Yes you can. You can still loot or buy the actual tool or weapon... You just can't skip past it in crafting. How many of us actually craft tools or weapons anyway? I know I rarely do anyway. I find them in loot usually long before I have enough parts to craft them.

According to what I have read so far, the trader in A21 will only offer things that are a bit better than what you can craft. So this option falls flat and unless they lowered the required lootlevel you have to have at least a lootstage of 100 to find T2 items and 190 to find T3 items. And those are mostly Q1 items. Even with the 250% loot bonus of the wasteland you will hardly reach such a high lootstage in the early game.

In one playthrough I found the schematics for the auger and the schematics for the crucible early on. Motor tool parts drop very often. Therefore, these were not a problem. 

This lucky find allowed me to skip steel tools. I found an auger much later in the game.

And by the way, almost all of my equipment is crafted except for the Q6 items.

 

[Javabean867]

I went out of my way to come make an account just to be able to comment how much I hate the new "learn by looting" changes.

Seriously, I started playing this game in Alpha 20 (later than most) and if this change comes to the game, I will stop playing. It sucks the fun out. My entire friend group that I play with feels the same way.

"Learn by Doing" is silly because it's insane to have to craft 100 shotguns or whatever to get better at making shotguns - why make the player do useless crafting of items they don't want and aren't going to use - and the new "Learn By Looting" is worse because it appears to exist for no reason other than to artificially slow the player's progression down. The current system of magazine series and perks is great because it allows the player to determine what direction they want their build to take - and the idea of only progressing by looting (which is only one of many activities to do in the game) is just silly. It also means that players are now fighting for loot instead of playing cooperatively because the only way to progress is hogging the loot, and we need to do insane amounts of looting to find all the new magazines. Limitations should only be added when they make the game more fun. For example, requiring the player to have a perk to craft an item is a fun limitation because it allows a gradual power progression and creates goals to work towards. The player can achieve these goals in many ways - killing zombies, looting, doing quests, building, farming, etc. You've now made it so that any time not spent looting is wasted time in the eyes of the game.

I'm really excited about some of the other changes that are supposedly coming to the game soon, but this single change has me upset enough to quit playing the game altogether. I really don't understand why we keep reworking systems in the game that have been reworked 2 or 3 times before already? But then maybe that's why the game is still in alpha after 8 years...

I agree with the previous poster - it feels like EA syndrome - "we know what you find fun better than you do." It's never to late to walk back a bad decision - please avoid the sunk cost fallacy and revert the changes to skills. It's okay to experiment with changes or toss around new ideas, but don't commit to a bad decision just because you've already invested time and effort into it. Seriously, it's *good* that you're trying new things and always looking for ways to improve - it would be bad if you weren't. But sometimes an idea just isn't what's best for the game, and you have to not be afraid to toss it.

I post this not because I'm angry or anything, I just know that I really enjoy the game and I want to keep playing it - I don't want the game I love to become unenjoyable for me, which is what this change is going to do. The system we have is really cool and I really like it, I really hope we can just keep it so I can continue to enjoy the game.

I'm sure other people will have replied to you about this.  But a lot of people are @%$#ing for no good reason.  

I am sure in your group of friends that play together you will have people who go loot and hunt while others will be focused on building bigger and better zombie traps.  Right?

Then your experience will not change.  The people doing the looting will bring back tons of magazines that cover the things you want to do.  This has already been discussed.  They are the same people who bring you back random higher quality gear that you can't craft yet.  Your experience there will not change.

My honest guess, is that the progressions will feel natural and not rushed or slow. 

The only fair way to actually judge how it works is to actually play it yourself.  My guess is that you will either be meh about the change, or actually like it.  

 

[Matt115]

I'm sure other people will have replied to you about this.  But a lot of people are @%$#ing for no good reason.  

I am sure in your group of friends that play together you will have people who go loot and hunt while others will be focused on building bigger and better zombie traps.  Right?

Then your experience will not change.  The people doing the looting will bring back tons of magazines that cover the things you want to do.  This has already been discussed.  They are the same people who bring you back random higher quality gear that you can't craft yet.  Your experience there will not change.

My honest guess, is that the progressions will feel natural and not rushed or slow. 

The only fair way to actually judge how it works is to actually play it yourself.  My guess is that you will either be meh about the change, or actually like it.  

I think... it's no reason to talk about LBD anymore. Because there is no chance they will scrap this A21 system xd

 

[Roland]

According to what I have read so far, the trader in A21 will only offer things that are a bit better than what you can craft.

hmm...I'm not so sure about that but I'll see if I can find out. I think that the trader references your loot stage and not where you are at in your magazine hunting. Like I've said, under the new system, I can often craft better than what I can find or buy if I'm lucky and get lots of one magazine type.

 

[Matt115]

hmm...I'm not so sure about that but I'll see if I can find out. I think that the trader references your loot stage and not where you are at in your magazine hunting. Like I've said, under the new system, I can often craft better than what I can find or buy if I'm lucky and get lots of one magazine type.

Well there is bigger chance to find magasine about something in places connected with this thing? i mean - in bar top chef magazine, in electric shop advance engenering etc

 

[Jost Amman]

Well there is bigger chance to find magasine about something in places connected with this thing? i mean - in bar top chef magazine, in electric shop advance engenering etc

Themed looting is also something that would be cool and, IIRC, they are already headed in that direction.

Though, coupling it with the new magazine "system" would just be the icing on the cake, IMO.  :eyebrows:

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

That's because you already had many hours played before the update. We have reports of players already into the 1000s of hours and they started with A20. 

So even soulless A20 seems to still have the power to provide the type of fun you remember from when you began for many new players today.

The point of the updates is not to add enough new content to keep veteran players enamored but to get the base game fleshed out and ready for release. 

If it isn't too much trouble, kindly leave that determination to me. 

I think I'm better qualified to give my reasons than you or anyone else.

 

[Jost Amman]

If it isn't too much trouble, kindly leave that determination to me. 

*soothing hypnotic voice*

"You feel tired... very tired of playing 7D2D again... your eyelids are heavy... you want to stop playing 7D2D and go to sleep... at the count of three"  :yawn:

 

[Roland]

If it isn't too much trouble, kindly leave that determination to me. 

I think I'm better qualified to give my reasons than you or anyone else.

If it makes you feel better just read my “you” as being a generalized “you” for anyone who could be called a veteran player. It’s pretty reasonable to expect any such person to not get as many hours of further enjoyment from updates that are meant to bolster the basic version of the game. 
 

It doesn’t take a leap of logic to see why a typical veteran of the game is going to want new and exciting content that pthey’ve never experienced rather than adjustments to existing features, graphical updates of existing decorations, animation improvements of existing models, and updates of existing POIs. 
 

I mean…not you of course…just other veterans who make the same exact complaints that you do and want the same sort of content updates that you want and get bored of each new alpha update a little faster than the one before exactly as you described.

And the fact that new players without so much time sunk into the game are extremely pleased with the gameplay and are happily putting 1000’s of hours into A20 belies the claim that the game is actually empty. 
 

What’s wrong with that assessment for the general population of veteran players?

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

If it makes you feel better just read my “you” as being a generalized “you” for anyone who could be called a veteran player. It’s pretty reasonable to expect any such person to not get as many hours of further enjoyment from updates that are meant to bolster the basic version of the game. 
 

It doesn’t take a leap of logic to see why a typical veteran of the game is going to want new and exciting content that pthey’ve never experienced rather than adjustments to existing features, graphical updates of existing decorations, animation improvements of existing models, and updates of existing POIs. 
 

I mean…not you of course…just other veterans who make the same exact complaints that you do and want the same sort of content updates that you want and get bored of each new alpha update a little faster than the one before exactly as you described.

And the fact that new players without so much time sunk into the game are extremely pleased with the gameplay and are happily putting 1000’s of hours into A20 belies the claim that the game is actually empty. 
 

What’s wrong with that assessment for the general population of veteran players?

If you don't mean me then leave me out of the quote when making generalisms.

The rest of your comment does not apply to me. I made clear my experience and gave my reasons why, determinations you are in no way qualified to make, nor is anyone else.

Kindly leave me aside of the general crowd and continue your speculations on the aforementioned as you see fit.

 

[BFT2020]

Had because people still buy Skyrim. Why would a  lot people  stil buying skyrim 5 years after released if there wasn't mods?

Rumors about Starfield are old - if i good remember i saw first news about that after Fallout new vegas. Btw that's why i hope starfiled will be terrible.  I just want new things. 

This really sounds conceited.  If I can't get TES VI, I hope that Starfield is terrible for anyone looking forward to it.  You know, BGS should be able to make other games than Fallout and TES without getting the hatred towards their new projects.

i"m not anti modding. I'm anti modding about TES. Why? i don't have problems with DOW 1. Because Warhammer 40k have tons of books, codexs etc . Tes had only games and 3 books. I like stalker mods but we have a lot of canon stalker books too. 

Unoffical game patch mod was even in Daggerfall and honestly .... lore is only reason to play Daggerfall without this patch. RLY if you play daggerfall "for fun" you would stop very fast because of bugs.

[SIZE=14.6px]"And every time you argue against mods, you always bring up the extreme ones in your crusade against mods (nudity, cartoonish, joke, etc)." - this is only problem with skyrim and it was problem before l4d2 get workshop. Skyrim, l4d2 , stalker , sw bf 2 have a lot of rly seriouse mods too - last alpha for stalker, clone wars for sw bf2 etc,[/SIZE]

"Bethseda decided they wanted to do minimal effort in porting the game from the consoles to the PC" do you remember paid mods in console editions?  Paid Mods | The Elder Scrolls Mods Wiki | Fandom . This was option for  bethesda to get more cash right?

Well, sorry to burst your bubble, but modding for TES is here to stay.   If Bethesda were to shoot themselves in the foot, they would remove it and see what the fanbase says.  The thing is, modding in TES does not affect you at all.  You can still play the TES games without mods.

 

[Matt115]

This really sounds conceited.  If I can't get TES VI, I hope that Starfield is terrible for anyone looking forward to it.  You know, BGS should be able to make other games than Fallout and TES without getting the hatred towards their new projects.

Well, sorry to burst your bubble, but modding for TES is here to stay.   If Bethesda were to shoot themselves in the foot, they would remove it and see what the fanbase says.  The thing is, modding in TES does not affect you at all.  You can still play the TES games without mods.

1. Not rly - CD projekt probably now making W4 because well Cyberpunk have bad opinion. And that's pretty normal if new brand don't work studio back to making "old brand" games. CoD ghost looks... generic so Acti decided to throw this to bin and return to "classic" series, NZ mode in WW2 was meh? in V they decided to return into Aeather story. Chaos story was boring? return of classic one. PoP 2008 was "reboot" and people don't liked this? return of old PoP.  DmC was bad? Devs decided to make Devil may Cry 5  etc.  So... if  Starfield will be bad they will back to F and TES because this will "safer" option for them that making another starfield or another new brand for some time. 

Conceited? no. Maybe hm... too much negative and deppresing. Because i focus how market works - if new brand don't work this mean it's usually best option to focus on actual brands until you get enough resources. Damn i wish i could think more like typical human XD 

2. I agree with you. Because after skyrim popularity it would be very stupid idea. But if they give up after morrowind probably oblivion and skyrim would be like witcher ( i know there is some mods to witcher but are not such popular as skyrim mods)  - know becauche this game have good story and world.

 

[danielspoa]

Well, I should rethink the time I make my comments then, so devs can read them before Roland checks in Its a shame another comment straight up mentioning LBD was there but mine wasn't.

Now that we are here, I can push the discussion further, right?

I will start with the very basic: no one cares about crafting LBD. None of the mods that reimplement it include crafting, and no one complains about the lack of it. I'm saying this because its the reason given in comments and streams regarding the removal of it.

The second point is the limitation on modding it back . Right now we have LBD mods with limited capabilities and a rough UI, and you know.. its better than nothing, but would be amazing to have what we once had. Even if just an option or modding capability.

Third point is a bit rude, I'm trying to find a good way to describe it. The game has been oversimplified despite so many people voicing against it; blocks, biomes, weapons, everything. Meanwhile we got stuff like candies that give superpowers and the "improvement" of punching crops instead of collecting them. A lot of decisions just make no sense, and while its 100% up to you to decide what to implement, it really sucks when someone comes and says he knows whats fun. In that sense I have full respect for Rick who came in a stream and actually answered why LBD was gone.

My ideal scenario includes LBD as a complement to the perk system, not as the main thing.  It would increase weapon handling, reload times and other stuff that you are supposed to improve with use. Its not a "learn to craft pistols by shooting with them".

It could MAYBE affect the loss of quality while repairing, which is another mechanic ripped from a16. 600 quality, weapon parts assembly, stuff that helped sink the excess of loot thats a problem nowadays. A problem that was literally created as a bonus while dumbing down the system.

-------

Now completely unrelated, traders could get a pass. Some of the best clothes are cheap as hell. Firearms start with very low prices, despite being a huge improvement even at low tiers. Quests give insane and unbalanced rewards. Lootable trader shelves are weird.

-------

And the fact that new players without so much time sunk into the game are extremely pleased with the gameplay and are happily putting 1000’s of hours into A20 belies the claim that the game is actually empty. 

Welp, people that didn't experience previous systems can't compare them and judge if it feels empty or not. A player that would have enjoyed 3k hours before may enjoy 1k now and have no idea on what he is missing. Remember I was the one to say the game feels empty, and I was comparing with previous alphas while describing it.

Its a great game, worth buying for sure. I didn't make a negative review on steam, instead I recommended friends to buy it. Whether some decisions were positive or not is a different thing and can coexist with it still being a good game.

 

[Roland]

A player that would have enjoyed 3k hours before may enjoy 1k now and have no idea on what he is missing.

We can explore the multiverse of what ifs forever but what it comes down to is results. This game still inspires people to devote a thousand hours to playing it. You’re saying that they might have enjoyed 3k hours vs the 1k they are getting now. Most games studios are thrilled if they can keep the attention of a player for 20-40 hours on their game. I’d love to see a negative review where someone complains that they could only eke out 1k hours of entertainment. 

 

[danielspoa]

We can explore the multiverse of what ifs forever but what it comes down to is results. This game still inspires people to devote a thousand hours to playing it. You’re saying that they might have enjoyed 3k hours vs the 1k they are getting now. Most games studios are thrilled if they can keep the attention of a player for 20-40 hours on their game. I’d love to see a negative review where someone complains that they could only eke out 1k hours of entertainment. 

so you are agreeing to my point. The game is still great, but we can't say as a fact its more or less empty than before. We can have opinions.

When you used that to contest my feeling of it being more empty you were basing it on the IF above. Nothing that invalidates the previous comments.

It was a successful game. It still is a successful game.

I don't take that from you.