PC Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Roland]

You guys are aware that after the release of A20 back in December, you've lost nearly 50% of your players, correct?

No. Not even close. Players always drop off after the new smell of an update wears off. But each new update we break records of returning players so the player base is still growing.  The fact that we’ve settled to 30k which was a number we could only reach at an update spike shows we aren’t losing as many as we are gaining and retaining. 
 

I understand it's your game, but WE are the ones that have been giving you your paychecks.

Really? Did this game start up a subscription model when I wasn’t looking?  You paid to be able to play the game and you have. Nowhere was it stated that your one time payment of $25 (or less on sale) would put you on the decision making team. 
 

If you guys truly think that is wrong, then why was there a massive uproar about No Man's Sky?

Because the developers did not deliver on what they had advertised their game would have. It had nothing to do with customer polls or community consensus and feedback about what they wanted. You’re trying to rewrite history here to try and prove your point. The creator of NMS has always pursued his vision of the game. He just under delivered on what he shared at launch. He delivered later but that was him admittedly striving to do the right thing and not because he got the community involved to help him finish his game. 
 

But hey, if you guys like paying for a game with developers that don't care about your opinion, more power to ya

heheh…each and every game in my Steam library, PlayStation, Xbox, and Switch collection going back to Atari and Coleco was one I bought and played without one single developer asking me for my opinion. Thousands of dollars spent in my lifetime on video game entertainment from developers who never cared to ask me my opinion. Is that just me?  

I even have a super-moderator implying I don't have friends when I complain about balancing for multiplayer servers.

I said you should find new people to play with that are less abusive. I never implied or stated that you have no friends. You were the one complaining that your friends yell at you when you open a container. I pointed out that they are not being friendly and that not all groups treat each other like that. Don’t try to spin that into me dissing you as a friendless person because you dared to criticize the lack of community polls for development. 
 

To be clear, I think you probably have lots of friends and probably a nice family. But your own description of the people you play the game with is something I would never put up with. I would take the passion you are using to criticize TFP and stand up for yourself in your gamer group or go find a new group who won’t yell at you. 
 

My point was the game doesn’t make people act that way. They’re just jerks. You deserve better. Anyone does. 

 

[KhaineGB]

The Kickstarter did have a disclaimer that some features might not be added until after official release. The features they thought at the time might come later was smoothed terrain but obviously they solved that ages ago. Point is they have some wiggle room to shift a few things to post release if needed.  I’m betting the story will be so. 

Yep, it does. Went and checked.

“Blindly support” is such a condescending phrase to say that those who criticize are aware of all the information while those who support are ignorant sheep. It’s true that we insist on a friendly atmosphere here and have zero tolerance for people being insulting to the developers— accusing them of being liars and cheats and lazy and inept. That doesn’t make us blind or unaware that some people aren’t going to enjoy all changes. Making a blanket statement that those who like and support TFP are blind is a pretty shallow  and baseless jibe. There have been lots of decisions I haven’t agreed with over the years and wasn’t silent about them but was able to discuss them without raging and ranting in a toxic manner. 

No it's not. It's the public perception of the forum. If you suggest that folks come here, and give their input in a polite and well structured manner, the response is typically "There's no point because it's a TFP fanboy echo chamber."

I'm not kidding. Therefore the phrase is accurate, because that's seriously what a lot of players outside of the forum believe. If you don't like that, then efforts need to be made to change it.

It's that simple.

Yes, and they read through it a lot. Someone on the team is always posting a criticism they read on those other sites. Your assumption that they only pay attention to the forums where they always get patted on the head by sycophants is so off it’s almost like you are….well…blind. 

Those users don’t like to come here not because their opinions won’t be considered but because the level of toxicity of their language and tone that they like to use is not welcome. I’ve monitored those other sites as well and I see how terrible they are to any “fanboy” who speaks up. Here, people challenge their points and don’t tolerate their insults so it’s no wonder they stay away. But there are still people who come and give contrary opinions with respect and who are willing to discuss their criticisms civilly and their opinions remain. 

Not strictly true. I know a lot of well mannered people, who could offer constrcutive, non-toxic criticism, but won't because they don't want to be attacked by other forum users due to the aforementioned issue above.

I am seriously not kidding. I've had people in my discord and twitter tell me that. I've also had folks tell me that on youtube and on facebook.

And I would re-read what I said, Roland. I did not assume they ONLY read the forums. I said they can't pay attention to all of the avenues I mentioned, which is true. It's a lot of time. Due to the fact the team MOSTLY respond here (I have seen Fataal and Kin in the 7 Days to Die - PC FB group), it is a fair and reasonable assumption. The only time I see TFP directly interact with fans is here, occasionally facebook and twitch (especially during the streamer event... i'm not counting Prime cos he's a nerd that always streams his own stuff )

Therefore my "assumption" is correct. They cannot possibly read every single piece of feedback on every single social media outlet that the players use, because there just isn't enough time in the day to do that AND work on the game AND have a life. That's straight fact.

Idk man...
I feel like everyone has concerns and hopes for the game, but at the end of the day, it's their game not ours, we're just here for the ride.
Plus: every change they made is for a reason, they have talented game designers so... maybe you'll say i'm a sheep, but i trust them.

Also, if they make a change that I don't want/like I can just opt-in for an older Alpha and have fun anyways, we have like 10 games in 1 because we can dance around all alpha versions.

The problem is the "reason" is never discussed.

A lot of people would be less irritable when a change comes if it was. Personally I would LOVE to know the reasons from a straight up design perspective on WHY something was changed, but that's because I want to learn.

 

[Trankitas]

Yep, it does. Went and checked.

No it's not. It's the public perception of the forum. If you suggest that folks come here, and give their input in a polite and well structured manner, the response is typically "There's no point because it's a TFP fanboy echo chamber."

I'm not kidding. Therefore the phrase is accurate, because that's seriously what a lot of players outside of the forum believe. If you don't like that, then efforts need to be made to change it.

It's that simple.

Not strictly true. I know a lot of well mannered people, who could offer constrcutive, non-toxic criticism, but won't because they don't want to be attacked by other forum users due to the aforementioned issue above.

I am seriously not kidding. I've had people in my discord and twitter tell me that. I've also had folks tell me that on youtube and on facebook.

And I would re-read what I said, Roland. I did not assume they ONLY read the forums. I said they can't pay attention to all of the avenues I mentioned, which is true. It's a lot of time. Due to the fact the team MOSTLY respond here (I have seen Fataal and Kin in the 7 Days to Die - PC FB group), it is a fair and reasonable assumption. The only time I see TFP directly interact with fans is here, occasionally facebook and twitch (especially during the streamer event... i'm not counting Prime cos he's a nerd that always streams his own stuff )

Therefore my "assumption" is correct. They cannot possibly read every single piece of feedback on every single social media outlet that the players use, because there just isn't enough time in the day to do that AND work on the game AND have a life. That's straight fact.

The problem is the "reason" is never discussed.

A lot of people would be less irritable when a change comes if it was. Personally I would LOVE to know the reasons from a straight up design perspective on WHY something was changed, but that's because I want to learn.

I think Madmole said it was to stimulate more exploring and looting, maybe I invented it...

One reason I can think of is: the intelligence tree is broken on CO-OP games. If I only perk up intelligence i break the whole progression of my team, I can skip vehicles, make insane tech and horde bases.

 

[Roland]

Therefore my "assumption" is correct.

Your assumption might be based on your observation of them actively posting but it is still not correct. The developers mostly lurk and read. Responding is what they don’t have time for but reading is easy. I read all the time many things while on the go. A lot of what they do involves waiting for builds to compile and load and they read. They just don’t comment very often outside of the forums. Your assumption that they aren’t seeing the criticism of other sites is simply wrong. As I said, they often bring up the critical posts they read from many different sources. Lurking. That’s the piece you were missing in your calculation. 

Not strictly true. I know a lot of well mannered people, who could offer constrcutive, non-toxic criticism, but won't because they don't want to be attacked by other forum users due to the aforementioned issue above.

I’ll grant you that the perception is real for those who have that. But plenty of people come and give their criticism and are not attacked or mocked. The unmoderated boards and forums are great for people to vent their dislike of the developers. I don’t deny that this forum has a friendly bias towards the developers. It is their house. 
 

What’s interesting is that I lurk in those other places and see how people treat each other there and it is way way beyond any mean treatment anyone gets around here. This forum is extremely tame. We challenge people on the things they claim and disagree with how they wish the game was different and sometimes people are snarky and witty in how they reply but it is sunshine and rainbows compared to the treatment a TFP supportive statement can produce there. That’s a straight fact. 

 

[NukemDed]

what?!?! how dare madmole tell me how to play the game!!!!

pffft, nearly typed that with a straight face....

 

[Roland]

what?!?! how dare madmole tell me how to play the game!!!!

pffft, nearly typed that with a straight face....

I remembered another. He wanted to change things so that you would be more likely to get the parts you need for crafting. 

 

[Kizzoap]

what?!?! how dare madmole tell me how to play the game!!!!

pffft, nearly typed that with a straight face....

I think this is the kind of thing people mean when they say this forum is full of insufferable snarky yes men. 

 

[KhaineGB]

Your assumption might be based on your observation of them actively posting but it is still not correct. The developers mostly lurk and read. Responding is what they don’t have time for but reading is easy. I read all the time many things while on the go. A lot of what they do involves waiting for builds to compile and load and they read. They just don’t comment very often outside of the forums. Your assumption that they aren’t seeing the criticism of other sites is simply wrong. As I said, they often bring up the critical posts they read from many different sources. Lurking. That’s the piece you were missing in your calculation. 

*sigh* Alright then... if I really have to do this...

The assumption is correct because, despite what you said, there is quite literally not enough time in the day to monitor all of the things I said, even taking into account down time for compiles/renders/other things. There's just not.

This is why the company I work for has at LEAST 3 social media managers who literally scour all those places (those are the ones I know of). That's their full time job for 5 days/week and then some part timers for the weekend, and even THEY don't reply to everything (like you said the devs dont).

I never stated they don't see criticism "at all". I said they can't monitor all of those. Now, maybe I should've clarified a bit better and said "they can't monitor everything on all of those all of the time", which would be a fair assement.

But at the same time, YOU could've asked for clarification rather than making your own assumptions.

I’ll grant you that the perception is real for those who have that. But plenty of people come and give their criticism and are not attacked or mocked. The unmoderated boards and forums are great for people to vent their dislike of the developers. I don’t deny that this forum has a friendly bias towards the developers. It is their house. 
 

What’s interesting is that I lurk in those other places and see how people treat each other there and it is way way beyond any mean treatment anyone gets around here. This forum is extremely tame. We challenge people on the things they claim and disagree with how they wish the game was different and sometimes people are snarky and witty in how they reply but it is sunshine and rainbows compared to the treatment a TFP supportive statement can produce there. That’s a straight fact. 

Being completely honest, and with no disrespect and no intent to cause offense...

The snark when people make suggestions, and some of your own replies (which come across as very rigid, and the assumptions that YOU make when replying to people), are exactly why people are put off, and why they think TFP won't listen. If you folks actually want feedback and criticism, this needs to be tempered... hard. Because it puts people off, including me.

If TFP do take suggestions and criticism, then I strongly suggest putting as such in the patch notes when a change is made. I'm only a modder and that's what I do, and my users appreciate it. The company I work for do something similar. In their case it usually says something "Based on player feed back and gathered statistics, X has been changed to Y."

And you know what? Users love it. It makes them feel listened to and valued.

 

[NukemDed]

I think this is the kind of thing people mean when they say this forum is full of insufferable snarky yes men. 

yawn 

seen all this before. its a game. get a life. 

 

[P3rf3ctVZer0]

*sigh* Alright then... if I really have to do this...

The assumption is correct because, despite what you said, there is quite literally not enough time in the day to monitor all of the things I said, even taking into account down time for compiles/renders/other things. There's just not.

This is why the company I work for has at LEAST 3 social media managers who literally scour all those places (those are the ones I know of). That's their full time job for 5 days/week and then some part timers for the weekend, and even THEY don't reply to everything (like you said the devs dont).

I never stated they don't see criticism "at all". I said they can't monitor all of those. Now, maybe I should've clarified a bit better and said "they can't monitor everything on all of those all of the time", which would be a fair assement.

But at the same time, YOU could've asked for clarification rather than making your own assumptions.

Being completely honest, and with no disrespect and no intent to cause offense...

The snark when people make suggestions, and some of your own replies (which come across as very rigid, and the assumptions that YOU make when replying to people), are exactly why people are put off, and why they think TFP won't listen. If you folks actually want feedback and criticism, this needs to be tempered... hard. Because it puts people off, including me.

If TFP do take suggestions and criticism, then I strongly suggest putting as such in the patch notes when a change is made. I'm only a modder and that's what I do, and my users appreciate it. The company I work for do something similar. In their case it usually says something "Based on player feed back and gathered statistics, X has been changed to Y."

And you know what? Users love it. It makes them feel listened to and valued.

Everything you said I agree with 100% like honestly - I too am just a modder and modpack dev honestly; all I need is some simple transparency. I don't need to know everything just detailed cliff notes of major changes. just being told we changed x due to y feedback would actually be heavily appreciated.

yawn 

seen all this before. its a game. get a life. 

Example of snarky and mean.

 

[NukemDed]

no just bored of the same old tripe.

i thought this thread was to be informed about and to discuss what changes,  note changes,  we can expect in the next iteration of this game not a place to have egos stroked.

this 'you said i said something that he said and i disagree that she thought you misread my post' carry on is pointless.

and boring. i wastes my time trying to glean something whorthwhile about the game.

and sorry moderators you do seem to fan those flames by engaging in the arguements.  everyone always seems to want to be right all the time.

except lazman and fataal - they seems are always on topic.

this will.probably see me with another snap from a mod but i feel it needs to be said.

 

[P3rf3ctVZer0]

no just bored of the same old tripe.

i thought this thread was to be informed about and to discuss what changes,  note changes,  we can expect in the next iteration of this game not a place to have egos stroked.

this 'you said i said something that he said and i disagree that she thought you misread my post' carry on is pointless.

and boring. i wastes my time trying to glean something whorthwhile about the game.

and sorry moderators you do seem to fan those flames by engaging in the arguements.  everyone always seems to want to be right all the time.

except lazman and fataal - they seems are always on topic.

this will.probably see me with another snap from a mod but i feel it needs to be said.

- If you are bored of tripe block the internet.
- What do you mean by stroked egos?
- The thread is general discussion of a21 (This includes feelings opinions and questions.)
- I agree that carrying on is pointless.
- At no point have I felt the mods fan the flames and only a few people have been super flamey ( A flamey action is one purposefully meant to insult or cause disruption. )
- Snaping solves nothing; just step back.

On that note I have nothing left to say.

 

[ArmoredStone]

You want the community to be game designer. Were many games designed that way and what happened to them? I think there was mention of such a game. Was that game a major success in the end, does anyone know?

Will you like such a community-designed game even though the community you were part of decided everything different than you voted?

You seem very confident that there are no successful games designed, heavily influenced by their communities.

Games heavily influenced by communities and mod-makers (taken just from a glance at my steam library and wishlist):

Rust, Scum, Satisfactory, Space Engineers, Eco, Rimworld, Don't Starve, Battlebit, Raft, Project Zomboid, Stranded Deep, Ravenfield, probably hundreds more I don't care to keep writing down to prove a point. 

And what point are you trying to prove by the second paragraph? The entire purpose of a poll system is to appeal to the majority of players. You arguing that the devs should do whatever they want and the community should just deal with it, would likely result in the game NOT appealing to as many people as it potentially could. That paragraph literally made no sense.

Oh, and a passive-aggressive winky face

 

[Jost Amman]

Not strictly true. I know a lot of well mannered people, who could offer constrcutive, non-toxic criticism, but won't because they don't want to be attacked by other forum users due to the aforementioned issue above.

How weird... that's the same reason I don't go on those platforms to state my opinion (I don't want to be attacked and labeled "fanboy" without them even considering my point of view because of their bias).

He's unfortunately right. The forum is mostly full of people who blindly support TFP.

BTW: congratulations on looking like an arrogant arse-hole and probably insulting every single person here on the forums. You can take your "I'm a great modder and I can say whatever I want to anybody" and stick it where the sun doesn't shine, dude!  :yo:

The presumption (from you or others) that everyone who comes here and honestly agrees with or trusts TFP, is a mindless fanboy, boot-licker or whatever other derogatory word you like to use, that in itself tells me what kind of arrogant person you are.

This is just a game, FFS! It's TFP's game: if they ruin it I'd be sorry, if they make it great, I'd be happy, but that's it, doesn't change my life one bit.

I don't wake up in the morning hoping to praise The Fun Pimps name  :hail:  and I certainly don't get paid for saying good things about this game.

(@Devs: now that I think about it, my Bank Account Number is...  :eyebrows: )

When they bring up new stuff, I'm open-minded (this "ancient" word that has been apparently lost in the dust of ages).

Spoiler

I'm always amused to see people fighting "noble" battles for their "rights" on game forums up to the last spill of blood (see @ArmoredStone).

Yet, in real life, they have their fundamental rights being stripped down by the governments they elect, and most of them say nothing about it.

Oh, and by the way... this is nothing personal, it's just my opinion, you know.  :classic_wink:

 

[KhaineGB]

BTW: congratulations on looking like an arrogant arse-hole and probably insulting every single person here on the forums. You can take your "I'm a great modder and I can say whatever I want to anybody" and stick it where the sun doesn't shine, dude!  :yo:

The presumption (from you or others) that everyone who comes here and honestly agrees with or trusts TFP, is a mindless fanboy, boot-licker or whatever other derogatory word you like to use, that in itself tells me what kind of arrogant person you are.

This.

This is why people don't like coming to the forums. I'm not being an "arrogant arse-hole". I'm being polite and discussing. If you don't like that, that's a you problem. I don't consider myself a "great modder" or even a good "content creator." I'm a tit with a keyboard and internet access just like everyone else.

But what I quoted? That's just being an insulting, pretentious git.

And THAT is the attitude a lot of people feel is present on these forums, especially in topics such as this one. And THAT is why people don't like to come here.

In other words: Adjust your attitude.

And as for my "presumption", it's literally what I've been told by other people. Did I think that in the past? Yes, yes I did. Many years ago. Before I started modding, which is why I didn't participate here much. Therefore, the rest of your sentence is literally just being insulting by calling me arrogant when I'm simply repeating WHAT I HAVE BEEN TOLD.

Again, if you don't like it, fine. But now you are literally doing exactly why people say they won't come here. You're not contributing.  You're not making the forum a better place.

 

[Tete1805]

To add a little bit to what Khaine says, in my own very humble opinion, sometimes, people may come to make a simple (very subjective) point and they're often welcomed by a methodical deconstruction (looking at moderators also here).

 

[SnowDog1942]

 I'm a tit with a keyboard 

Finally found something we agree on.

 

[Callum123456789]

i wont lie this thread went from ooooo look an a21 feature being displayed to quite a hostile place quickly i think we should let our opinions of the game be displayed but respect each others opinions its absolutely childish your suggestion may or may not be a good or bad thing but i respect you for seeing how you think x or y should work we cant just flat out tell the devs what to do as they own the rights to the game and they make the final decisions can we all just get along and stop arguing about pointless things please as toxic environments will just lead to less ideas being made by users look for the past 3 pages and think to yourself do you really think someone would want to make a suggestion if all they see is that crap?

 

[mstdv inc]

Want my opinion then?

He's unfortunately right. The forum is mostly full of people who blindly support TFP. This is their primary method of communcation, so that's what they see. Any criticism that is actually well constructed is often shouted down by most folks on the forum, so it can be ignored (it's not ALWAYS ignored, I want to make that clear, but it often is, because TFP will just do whatever they want and folks here just stand around and clap).

Other social media, like twitter, discord, facebook, reddit, twitch, youtube... there's often a lot of criticism. I know they obviously cannot monitor all of these, but if you actually tell people to go to the forums and make their grievances in a polite and constructive manner, you know what the typical response is?

"There's no point. They won't listen and the forum is full of TFP <insert descriptive noun for supporters here which may or may not be polite>".

And I also know they can't listen to everyone. If they did, the game would never be done. The problem is, changes like this are perceived as uncessary. TFP have a habit of doing MAJOR changes (and this is) when only a slight tweak is needed. Which means folks get annoyed, and it drags out the development process.

Personally, I'm still on the side of "This is a completely unecessary change" but with a side of "I'm going to see how it plays."

Story needs to be done before gold as I believe it's a KS promise. I need to double check that.

I've been following development news reviews for quite some time. Most of the criticism on social media has come from people who don't (and shouldn't) understand how the game is developed, its mechanics, and the overall direction of the game.
If you read this "criticism", then some want to make a space fantasy out of the game, others want hardcore horror, others want a PVP server for 100 people and anime girl skins.
When they complain about optimization, you ask them WHAT EXACTLY OPTIMIZATION should TFP do? Most of them either don’t answer or just say there SHOULD be more fps in the game, simply because the next game from the AAA studio has more fps. They don’t care that there are no neighboring games completely destructible world, they don't care that TFP is not AAA studio, they don't care about anything at all, they just demand for their few dollars that the game be made the way they want.
When you tell them about early access, the answer is that they are again owed something.
On the other hand, most of the people who are active in the game development branches understand the basic concept of the game and its mechanics, so these people behave much more restrained when they offer or criticize something.
Therefore, in my opinion, the opinion of hundreds of people from the forum is much more valuable than the opinion of thousands of people from social networks.

 

[Roland]

Want my opinion then?

He's unfortunately right. The forum is mostly full of people who blindly support TFP. This is their primary method of communcation, so that's what they see. Any criticism that is actually well constructed is often shouted down by most folks on the forum, so it can be ignored (it's not ALWAYS ignored, I want to make that clear, but it often is, because TFP will just do whatever they want and folks here just stand around and clap).

Other social media, like twitter, discord, facebook, reddit, twitch, youtube... there's often a lot of criticism. I know they obviously cannot monitor all of these

Perhaps I did assume too much from your words but here is the controversial part of your original post. You were NOT quoting someone else who said the forum was full of blindly supporting people. That is clearly you stating what you believe. Maybe you were intending to convey a quote but when you say "He is right. The forum is mostly full of people who blindly support TFP" that is different than saying "I hear from a lot of people who say that..."

If you want to step back from that statement and now say that you don't really believe it but you were just informing us what other people are saying, that would be nice to hear.

Secondly, this direct quote from you really sends the message that criticism here gets shouted down and so the blind support here is all that TFP sees. You did not follow this up with a statement that you don't expect them to read everything posted on other social media sites, you said they obviously cannot moniter them. My response to you was that they do monitor all the ones you listed. Of course, they don't read every single post ever typed but they are not only listening to what they read here. They read lots of criticism from many sources. They are an international team with programmers and testers that live in different countries and so they often post what they see on their more local social media in our team meetings.

I admit they do not have a team of readers combing the internet for all the feedback they can get. But you were obviously implying that their only exposure to feedback is here where everyone just claps and nothing critical can be read because of all the blind support. That was you sharing your opinion and not quoting anyone else. Then, in follow up posts when people responded negatively to you calling them blind supporters you hedged saying you were only quoting perspectives you read in other social media sites. When I pointed out that they DO monitor social media and read plenty of criticism thats when you took things to the extreme and moved from "they can't monitor other sites" to "they can't possibly read the entire internet". I never said they could read the entire internet and neither did you originally.