PC The question is... where are the zombies?

[Roland]

I didn't mention stealth and it has nothing to do with my point. The "pinatas" referred to the fact I have to whack like 4 zombies in a normal POI and then I get to take all the loot. Even at higher gamestages, I hardly ever encounter zombies unless I seek them out.

Stop limiting your exploration to tier one POI's then? What you describe is completely foreign to my own experience and many other cases I've read especially for T2 POIs and above. Four zombies per POI and you have to search for them in order to encounter them? And what is it about them that makes them pinatas? I assumed it was that they were just sleeping and it was trivial for you to pass them by but apparently you don't even want awake zombies in the POIs? Seems contradictory to your point that you want more zombie encounters. 

I DO mod more zombies in. I've got 2 of Khaine's mods to get better wandering hordes and more ambient zombies. The point is that this is a zombie game and it's silly they took out the slider to make more zombies.

The point is actually that the game is under development and it is not unreasonable to expect players to use mods while they wait for the features they want to get developed. The devs felt the slider needed to be removed and they have not yet felt it necessary to reinstate it. They do allow us to mod in more zombies however which you are doing so what is the issue? You have what you want and TFP is still developing the game.

Feral senses just pulls more zombies from elsewhere. It doesn't add more, at least, that's my understanding.

So what? If the zombies were out of your sight and you never would have encountered them anyway why do you care that they are standing around out there beyond your ability to sense them? If feral sense draws them into you then for all you know they are more zombies that you are coming into contact with. If you just want more zombies and you don't care whether they are spawned close to  you or a biome away where they will never interact with you then what's the use?

Also, the fact that TFP said 5 years ago that they'd add bandits is irrelevant. Other games have done it really well since then and I'm not excited for the balance issues bandits are going to cause. TFP still hasn't properly balanced the zombies in a zombie game. I'm not looking forward to another 5 years of weird bandits also taking up space that should be for zombies.

They said it almost 9 years ago in the form of a promise that people pledged money to see fulfilled. It is not irrelevant. Bandits are a key feature for this game planned since the very beginning. You won't have to look forward to another 5 years of weird bandits taking up space that should be for zombies. You will be looking forward to them forever more after the release of Alpha 21== unless you mod them out. (I know, OUTRAGEOUS!)

 

[Matt115]

They said it almost 9 years ago in the form of a promise that people pledged money to see fulfilled. It is not irrelevant. Bandits are a key feature for this game planned since the very beginning. You won't have to look forward to another 5 years of weird bandits taking up space that should be for zombies. You will be looking forward to them forever more after the release of Alpha 21== unless you mod them out. (I know, OUTRAGEOUS!)

Well i agree with you but.... there nothing about bandits as npc in kickstarter because....Solo, Cooperative and Multiplayer - Play solo, coop or multiplayer in our unique Zombie Nomad Mode be a human, a bandit or a zombie for a no rules experience. Watch the leader boards and fight to be the Big Clan of the Wasteland or the Duke of Navezgane.   sounds like playable bandits and zombie. At least if i good undertand this point. i know i'm picking on 

So... if i good undestand..... NPC are not neccesary but adding Zombie nomad mode ( btw stupid thing - bandits are humans too right? so There should be survivor not human.) with classes is. 

 

[Roland]

Well i agree with you but.... there nothing about bandits as npc in kickstarter because....Solo, Cooperative and Multiplayer - Play solo, coop or multiplayer in our unique Zombie Nomad Mode be a human, a bandit or a zombie for a no rules experience. Watch the leader boards and fight to be the Big Clan of the Wasteland or the Duke of Navezgane.   sounds like playable bandits and zombie. At least if i good undertand this point. i know i'm picking on 

So... if i good undestand..... NPC are not neccesary but adding Zombie nomad mode ( btw stupid thing - bandits are humans too right? so There should be survivor not human.) with classes is. 

In the stretch goals that were met:



We call them "bandits" as a generalization. But they are the promised NPC characters some of whom are loyal to the Duke of Navezgane and some of whom are loyal to White River. "Safe Houses" are what we have been calling "Bandit controlled POI's". There will be a reputation system that will affect how the NPCs react towards you. I suspect that at first the NPCs loyal to the Duke will be instantly hostile to you and act like the bandits we've been discussing as just a higher tier enemy beyond zombies. How will our interactions be with NPCs that we have built a good reputation with? We don't know.

Now all of that above is the ideal situation given enough time and resources. The actual promise is written pretty ambiguously with no mention of reputation and so if TFP decides that they would rather tackle complex player/npc relationships governed by a reputation system in their next game, they could easily just make NPCs that are either instantly hostile and NPCs that are neutral unless attacked-- much like the animals that already exist and then have a few POI's that are NPC controlled safe houses (for them) and their promise is fulfilled to the letter if not the original spirit of what they hoped to be able to do.

But the point is that NPCs were promised before the game ever came to Steam which was years before Subsistence existed and so whether or not other games have NPCs or that some of us thought we were purchasing a zombie only game or just want a zombie only game, this game is going to have NPCs. Period.

If you don't like it you can mod them out much like some people do with the trader. 

 

[Matt115]

In the stretch goals that were met:

View attachment 24338

We call them "bandits" as a generalization. But they are the promised NPC characters some of whom are loyal to the Duke of Navezgane and some of whom are loyal to White River. "Safe Houses" are what we have been calling "Bandit controlled POI's". There will be a reputation system that will affect how the NPCs react towards you. I suspect that at first the NPCs loyal to the Duke will be instantly hostile to you and act like the bandits we've been discussing as just a higher tier enemy beyond zombies. How will our interactions be with NPCs that we have built a good reputation with? We don't know.

Now all of that above is the ideal situation given enough time and resources. The actual promise is written pretty ambiguously with no mention of reputation and so if TFP decides that they would rather tackle complex player/npc relationships governed by a reputation system in their next game, they could easily just make NPCs that are either instantly hostile and NPCs that are neutral unless attacked-- much like the animals that already exist and then have a few POI's that are NPC controlled safe houses (for them) and their promise is fulfilled to the letter if not the original spirit of what they hoped to be able to do.

But the point is that NPCs were promised before the game ever came to Steam which was years before Subsistence existed and so whether or not other games have NPCs or that some of us thought we were purchasing a zombie only game or just want a zombie only game, this game is going to have NPCs. Period.

If you don't like it you can mod them out much like some people do with the trader. 

i'm just making fun about that. Even i , i'm not so radical XD So treat this answer more like banter. Well i can't just be edgy and dark 100% of time right?

Well using typical Zombie game vocabulary .... Bandit controlled POI will be not safe houses but outpost !  Safe houses are safe zone for players - DL1 and 2 , mgs base or safe house from l4d2 ! So only trader base is safe houses!

Npc loyal to duke can work as... living maneques in bases - like you talk with them and they give you quest but don't selling anything. So Duke can have their own base and white River too and add npc just sitting there = TFP'promises will be fulfille! So using this solution bandits can be scrapped and just add "guards" npc !! AND MODS ARE NOT SOLUTION OF PROBLEMS!!!!!

Now seriously: well i hope reputation system will be added in their next game not into 7dtd.  Not because i don't like idea ( because it's sounds good) but because well time and resources - that's why  i'm happy that siege engines weren't added in M&B because it would be too problematic but added them into M&B BANNERLORD. Btw Your wrote about "their next game" - we know it will be not 7DTD 2 for sure so - do you think their next game will be sandbox too?

 

[Roland]

Bandit controlled POIs are outposts if the bandits are enemies of the player ala the reputation system.

Bandit controlled POIs are safe houses if the bandits are friends of the player ala the reputation system.

Mods are not the solution of actual problems but they are the means for pushing the game beyond the scope of what the developers plan to do. The issue is that you and others categorize some "beyond the scope" areas as  "problem" areas because you want those things to be within the scope of the base game. That doesn't make them an actual problem to everyone-- just to you. And mods are the means by which you will have to get them in the game.

For example... Pure Romero zombies are not within the scope of the game. This game has always been designed to have zombies with special abilities. Running, leaping, tearing down concrete walls, siren calling other zombies in, projectile vomiting, blood moon gps player sensing, not to mention zombie dogs, vultures, and bears are all within the planned scope of this game. Some people see this as a problem of the game and want the devs to fix it and are livid that they must turn to mods in order to make it so that zombies always walk, have no special abilities, must be head shot, and are numerous in giant herds. But regardless of their opinions, the facts are that the base game will never be what they want and they will always have to use mods to get what they want and the sooner they see mods as a legitimate solution granted and authorized by the devs rather than as a fix to a problem the devs were too lazy or inept to do on their own the less bitter they will be about playing the game and can just enjoy themselves.

Friendly, neutral, and hostile NPCs are planned for this game. They are within the scope of what the devs have planned and no amount of feedback is going to change their minds. The majority of players who researched the game before purchasing expect them and want them. 7 Days to Die as a pure zombie game with the player being the sole human survivor is outside the scope of the game. Hence, players will always have to use mods in order to remove the NPCs from the game. And when I say use mods I include toggling a slider in the options menu to turn off NPCs if TFP decides to put an option like that in there. The point is that the default version of the game WILL have NPCs of which bandits are what we refer to as the hostile NPCs. Get used to it and plan to mod them out if you don't like it.

 

[AtomicUs5000]

I wonder if they will have dialogue and if we will be able to create our own dialogue and make our own stories if we want via modding.

 

[Feycat]

As usual, Roland feels like he needs to be pointlessly hostile when discussing the game.

I have no idea what you're on about with your stealth thing and I'm not going to address it. Nor do I understand why you feel the need to be so pedantic. Zombies in POIs are very rarely challenging. They're regularly placed, easily anticipated and you can usually bottleneck them when they come in a jumble. I never said anything about wanting no zombies so honestly, go off I guess.

Also I have no idea why you've decided to get overexcited about bandits. My original op said I'm not excited for them and if I want to -- now, today, currently, at the moment -- play a game with bandits I'll play Subsistence. You've decided to really pounce on that and hold forth on the fact that Subsistence came around after 7d2d, but honestly that's irrelevant. I don't expect bandits to be good *because TFP haven't even managed to figure out the zombie balance.* Don't tell me you don't think there's going to be years of patching in and out inadequate/poorly balanced/underpowered/overpowered bandits just like we have zombies.

I've been playing since A7 or 8, and zombies presence has pretty steadily dropped. There was a point at like... I think A17? When zombies got their co-op smashing weak spot sledgehammer ability where they actually became scary again for a bit. I've been having to add them via mods and xml editing most of the time, and it's sad.

As for feral senses? If I already feel like there's too few zombies, then pulling zombies from somewhere else onto me just means the next POI over or whatever is empty. It's about volume.

 

[meganoth]

Active  i mean "player detected and they are agresive"  - i mean i would see 10 - 30 wandering zombie without point on streets. You know just walking and do nothing..  So if you don't want to fight with them you have to sneake around. 

10 - 30 zombie spawning and being almost in this while agresive sounds like just wandering hordes. So yeah this would help but - i will give you WD as example- sometimes there is zombie horde  walking thought highway , sometimes you just meet 20 zombie near hospital just ...standing  

As the encounter system has been described zombies would not be aggressive, but they would get placed somewhere in your way so you would have to either fight them or make a detour around them. Whether they are just standing there or walking into some direction could be random.

Wandering hordes are not aggressive as well, they are just **wandering** somewhat in your direction. They only notice you if you let them come near you.

A little bit off topic but - damn it would be so good to have game being like mix of 7dtd and thief - focused on stealth,  resource managment with bigger number of zombie, making base like in 7dtd but without blood moon. This would be so good. Well i know nobody would be interested to make such undynamic game

Will there ever be an end to the list of games you want to turn 7D2D into?

 

[Matt115]

Bandit controlled POIs are outposts if the bandits are enemies of the player ala the reputation system.

Bandit controlled POIs are safe houses if the bandits are friends of the player ala the reputation system.

Mods are not the solution of actual problems but they are the means for pushing the game beyond the scope of what the developers plan to do. The issue is that you and others categorize some "beyond the scope" areas as  "problem" areas because you want those things to be within the scope of the base game. That doesn't make them an actual problem to everyone-- just to you. And mods are the means by which you will have to get them in the game.

For example... Pure Romero zombies are not within the scope of the game. This game has always been designed to have zombies with special abilities. Running, leaping, tearing down concrete walls, siren calling other zombies in, projectile vomiting, blood moon gps player sensing, not to mention zombie dogs, vultures, and bears are all within the planned scope of this game. Some people see this as a problem of the game and want the devs to fix it and are livid that they must turn to mods in order to make it so that zombies always walk, have no special abilities, must be head shot, and are numerous in giant herds. But regardless of their opinions, the facts are that the base game will never be what they want and they will always have to use mods to get what they want and the sooner they see mods as a legitimate solution granted and authorized by the devs rather than as a fix to a problem the devs were too lazy or inept to do on their own the less bitter they will be about playing the game and can just enjoy themselves.

Friendly, neutral, and hostile NPCs are planned for this game. They are within the scope of what the devs have planned and no amount of feedback is going to change their minds. The majority of players who researched the game before purchasing expect them and want them. 7 Days to Die as a pure zombie game with the player being the sole human survivor is outside the scope of the game. Hence, players will always have to use mods in order to remove the NPCs from the game. And when I say use mods I include toggling a slider in the options menu to turn off NPCs if TFP decides to put an option like that in there. The point is that the default version of the game WILL have NPCs of which bandits are what we refer to as the hostile NPCs. Get used to it and plan to mod them out if you don't like it.

Well i think you rly was thinking i was writing serious yesterday. 

Btw i think traders need guards near gates because well this looks stupid when zombie just get inside without problem 

As usual, Roland feels like he needs to be pointlessly hostile when discussing the game.

I have no idea what you're on about with your stealth thing and I'm not going to address it. Nor do I understand why you feel the need to be so pedantic. Zombies in POIs are very rarely challenging. They're regularly placed, easily anticipated and you can usually bottleneck them when they come in a jumble. I never said anything about wanting no zombies so honestly, go off I guess.

Also I have no idea why you've decided to get overexcited about bandits. My original op said I'm not excited for them and if I want to -- now, today, currently, at the moment -- play a game with bandits I'll play Subsistence. You've decided to really pounce on that and hold forth on the fact that Subsistence came around after 7d2d, but honestly that's irrelevant. I don't expect bandits to be good *because TFP haven't even managed to figure out the zombie balance.* Don't tell me you don't think there's going to be years of patching in and out inadequate/poorly balanced/underpowered/overpowered bandits just like we have zombies.

I've been playing since A7 or 8, and zombies presence has pretty steadily dropped. There was a point at like... I think A17? When zombies got their co-op smashing weak spot sledgehammer ability where they actually became scary again for a bit. I've been having to add them via mods and xml editing most of the time, and it's sad.

As for feral senses? If I already feel like there's too few zombies, then pulling zombies from somewhere else onto me just means the next POI over or whatever is empty. It's about volume.

Well - zombie can be (...) because it's still alpha so a lot of things can be change so... balance is not important so much now. First content them "fixing" problems

As the encounter system has been described zombies would not be aggressive, but they would get placed somewhere in your way so you would have to either fight them or make a detour around them. Whether they are just standing there or walking into some direction could be random.

Wandering hordes are not aggressive as well, they are just **wandering** somewhat in your direction. They only notice you if you let them come near you.

Will there ever be an end to the list of games you want to turn 7D2D into?

1. If this will working as you saying this will solve this problem  

2. Everything i just want is medieval 7dtd with darker setting more focused on stealth  good... i wish it will be true

 

[ElDudorino]

As for feral senses? If I already feel like there's too few zombies, then pulling zombies from somewhere else onto me just means the next POI over or whatever is empty. It's about volume.

Zombies in PoIs won't wake up until you enter their wake zones. A lot of times they don't even spawn in until you trigger them. So feral sense wouldn't empty out a PoI. It would just grab more from the street etc. who respawn at a rate dictated by spawns.xml.

 

[JCrook1028]

As for feral senses? If I already feel like there's too few zombies, then pulling zombies from somewhere else onto me just means the next POI over or whatever is empty. It's about volume.

Seriously? That's how you think it works? That is wakes up sleepers from the next POI over? Lemme fix that misconception for you then/ That's not how it works. It pulls awake zombies from the surrounding area. That does not affect you in any negative way cause you're not there where they're being pulled from anyway so to you it's the same as there being more Z's overall. Is that really so hard to comprehend? It's been stated multiple times but still we get these posts ignoring that simple fact.

 

[Roland]

As usual, Roland feels like he needs to be pointlessly hostile when discussing the game.

You are reading my posts as hostile? Huh...go back and read them again as simply disagreeing with the points you are making. If you think this is a usual occurance then just take my word for it that there is no hostility and you are simply manufacturing it yourself as you read my text. I disagree with your point. I don't hate you. I think you are wrong but I'm sure you are a wonderful person. I have no reason to be hostile but every reason to correct inaccurate statements. I already said I agree with your general observance that there are too few zombies.

I have no idea what you're on about with your stealth thing and I'm not going to address it. Nor do I understand why you feel the need to be so pedantic. Zombies in POIs are very rarely challenging. They're regularly placed, easily anticipated and you can usually bottleneck them when they come in a jumble. I never said anything about wanting no zombies so honestly, go off I guess.

Sorry I misunderstood your use of figurative language. If you would just say exactly what you meant then I wouldn't need to be pedantic in an attempt to try and understand what you meant by "pinatas" as your description for why you don't like the zombies inside POIs. I thought you meant that they were inanimate objects like a pinata since they are sleepers and you were saying all you have to do is beat them down easily. Then you said that you have always ever seen at most four zombies in POIs unless you specifically go looking for them. I guess you were just using hyperbole then? Honestly, just type out what you mean without exageration and you will find that people in general will be less pedantic trying to figure out and fine tune what your side of the debate is. I brought stealth into it because assuming you meant they all stayed asleep all the time that description didn't jive well with many reports of zombies always waking up and stealth being broken. If I hadn't needed to make an assumption about what a pinata is in your mind I never would have brought up stealth at all...lol

Also I have no idea why you've decided to get overexcited about bandits. My original op said I'm not excited for them and if I want to -- now, today, currently, at the moment -- play a game with bandits I'll play Subsistence. You've decided to really pounce on that and hold forth on the fact that Subsistence came around after 7d2d, but honestly that's irrelevant. I don't expect bandits to be good *because TFP haven't even managed to figure out the zombie balance.* Don't tell me you don't think there's going to be years of patching in and out inadequate/poorly balanced/underpowered/overpowered bandits just like we have zombies.

I "pounced on" bandits because other people have contributed to the conversation and I am speaking to them as well. Bandits are finally being developed to be released in the next big update so they are a hot topic and I am "over excited" about them because I've been waiting for years for them to be added. I guess I don't really agree with you that zombies as an enemy are massively out of balance. I'd like to see them in greater numbers and greater variety if possible but they seem to work really well. What do you mean by saying they are poorly balanced? As for bandits, I know for a fact they won't spend years balancing them because they are about done with this game. This game probably has two years left of development at most. They will implement bandits the best they can and some will like them and others will insist they are wildly out of balance but TFP won't keep tweaking them for years and years because they will be on to their next game. I think they will do fine with the bandits but then, unlike you, I feel they have done fine with the zombies. <shrug>

I've been playing since A7 or 8, and zombies presence has pretty steadily dropped.

Okay. That isn't what has actually happened but often what is actually happening and what we feel are different. I can't argue with how you feel. To me, sleepers were a huge improvement in having greater populations of zombies inside POIs while you were exploring room by room instead of all the zombies rushing outside and the POI being largely empty. Now in A20 the feral sense mode has brought to me a feeling of more zombie encounters in a more steady if not constant manner. Again, I agree with you that there are not enough zombies in the wilderness as would be ideal and it would be great to have more.

I've been having to add them via mods and xml editing most of the time, and it's sad.

What's wrong with that and why is it sad? There seems to be this sentiment being posted by a few users right now that seem to indicate that it is somehow shameful or pathetic for the developers to not have every possible option available for any preference all while they are still in the midst of active development. There also seems to be this sentiment of sadness over the necessity to mod and that modding is somehow in existence in spite of the developers. I'm trying to interpret your meaning here by the use of the word "sad". You see, my feeling is that it is a great blessing to be able to mod things in we want without having to wait for development to be over. I see modding as an awesome ability granted and encouraged by the developers. Why be sad or think it pathetic that you must mod in extra zombies? Why not just do it and be glad it is possible and play the game?

As for feral senses? If I already feel like there's too few zombies, then pulling zombies from somewhere else onto me just means the next POI over or whatever is empty. It's about volume.

Because more would spawn once you get to those areas that the zombies spawned in. Pre A20 zombies would spawn around you near and far and many times they would just stand there unaware of you and you unaware of them because you never headed in that direction. Also wandering hordes would often wander past your location but far enough away and possibly behind you that you never noticed them and they never noticed  you. With feral sense on more of those wandering hordes now sense you and turn and come for you which makes you feel that there are more zombies in the world. With feral sense on more of those zombies standing in places that you never would have gone now sense you and come from those faraway spots to attack again making it feel like there are more zombies where you are.

Why do you care about volume if you never would encounter, sense, or know of a lot of that volume? You just want volume for the sake of volume? If the developers can cheat so that it feels like more volume when in fact there isn't more volume then it really is the same thing without the cost in performance.

 

[Matt115]

I "pounced on" bandits because other people have contributed to the conversation and I am speaking to them as well. Bandits are finally being developed to be released in the next big update so they are a hot topic and I am "over excited" about them because I've been waiting for years for them to be added. I guess I don't really agree with you that zombies as an enemy are massively out of balance. I'd like to see them in greater numbers and greater variety if possible but they seem to work really well. What do you mean by saying they are poorly balanced? As for bandits, I know for a fact they won't spend years balancing them because they are about done with this game. This game probably has two years left of development at most. They will implement bandits the best they can and some will like them and others will insist they are wildly out of balance but TFP won't keep tweaking them for years and years because they will be on to their next game. I think they will do fine with the bandits but then, unlike you, I feel they have done fine with the zombies. <shrug>

Okay. That isn't what has actually happened but often what is actually happening and what we feel are different. I can't argue with how you feel. To me, sleepers were a huge improvement in having greater populations of zombies inside POIs while you were exploring room by room instead of all the zombies rushing outside and the POI being largely empty. Now in A20 the feral sense mode has brought to me a feeling of more zombie encounters in a more steady if not constant manner. Again, I agree with you that there are not enough zombies in the wilderness as would be ideal and it would be great to have more.

Well i agree with most of your post but :

1. Well they could be added in A16 now. Now it's just too late to be excited anymore. it will be just "bandits? Ok btw -  any news about changes in farming?" Well i think they will not end with 7dtd so soon - probably they will add some dlc

2. I prefered more zombie rushing from outside - because this more logical that 4 zombie in small wardrobe. Because.. well idk even how in some POI zombie could get to some places ( damaged tower with military barack and military trucks - zombie just fall from small platforms). So for many reasons it would be much logical if zombie would be mostly outside and inside would be pretty empty 

 

[Roland]

Well i agree with most of your post but :

1. Well they could be added in A16 now. Now it's just too late to be excited anymore. it will be just "bandits? Ok btw -  any news about changes in farming?" Well i think they will not end with 7dtd so soon - probably they will add some dlc

2. I prefered more zombie rushing from outside - because this more logical that 4 zombie in small wardrobe. Because.. well idk even how in some POI zombie could get to some places ( damaged tower with military barack and military trucks - zombie just fall from small platforms). So for many reasons it would be much logical if zombie would be mostly outside and inside would be pretty empty 

1. Yeah, you wouldn't be able to agree with me being excited about bandits if you aren't. Not much I can do about that except be glad for myself. No changes in farming planned as far as I know.

2. I much prefer room by room clearing compared to empty POIs and zombies supposedly rushing in from outside. Stick blocks in doorways and break out the stairs and there is zero rushing from outside and zero risk for all the loot you get. Again, if you prefer empty POIs there isn't much to be said.

 

[Matt115]

1. Yeah, you wouldn't be able to agree with me being excited about bandits if you aren't. Not much I can do about that except be glad for myself. No changes in farming planned as far as I know.

2. I much prefer room by room clearing compared to empty POIs and zombies supposedly rushing in from outside. Stick blocks in doorways and break out the stairs and there is zero rushing from outside and zero risk for all the loot you get. Again, if you prefer empty POIs there isn't much to be said.

about 2. Well i think more about " if this have sense " ( just visual at least) that if this is fun for gameplay